What are the purposes of trials and suffering?

[sixpacktr]

I was reading in Hebrews this morning, chapter 12, which is a great discourse on trials and how we can know that our trials are proof of our HF's love for us, as he chastens those he loves, and that it proves we are his sons and daughters. I found great solace in that chapter, as my wife and I have been going thru a trial for several years now that seems to be 'never-ending'.

But as I pondered that more, I was struck with the thought of 'why?' What are the purposes of trials? We believe that trials refine us, make us more Christlike in our demeanor (if we 'endure them well' obviously), but how does that make us more Godly? True, it makes us patient and trusting in God and his plans for us, and perhaps gives us empathy, and I know it gives us 'experience', as told to Joseph in Carthage jail.

But how do they make us Godly? Is God simply very patient and empathetic to our plight? Is trust what saves us? Simply by having experience we become Godly?

Our trials and lives in general are set up in such a way to get us to exaltation the quickest, again if we endure to the end and seek to be humble and learning. But how do trials make that happen?

Am I being clear? I know the pat answers, and have a concept of it, but I don't think that learning patience in trials is what God is all about right now, or that he needs to have trust now, since he is exalted. Does any of this make sense?

I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on this. I know that I am closer to my HF because of these trials, but how are they making me Godly?

[NeuroTypical]

Here's something that makes sense to me. Consider how children learn and grow. Consider how character is shaped and formed through hardship. Think about how kids turn out when they just have everything handed to them on a plate without even having to get up from their texting. Kids learn to appreciate good things more, after coming into contact with not so good things. They develop sympathy and empathy for others who go through similar hardships.

We are our Father's children, and He's raising us.

LM

[pam]

I have to agree with LM. I also think that if everything was just sooo easy how would that be a test for us on earth? I think we have trials so Heavenly Father can see how we react. Do we put our faith in Him? Or do we let the trials get the best of us?

[foreverafter]

But how do they make us Godly? Is God simply very patient and empathetic to our plight? Is trust what saves us? Simply by having experience we become Godly?

I believe that God wants to find out who really loves him & will follow him at all costs & keep their covenants to him. Most people are not these days. God wants to know who has True Love & commitment to him & their spouse, the 2 people we are commanded to love without end & to give our life for. Only those with Charity, True Love will become Gods & Goddesses.

[sixpacktr]

I knew I wasn't being very clear, mainly because this is kind of still forming in my head.

I understand all the 'church seminary' answers to the question. We will choose right no matter what, we need to learn to trust in God, we will be refined.

I guess what I'm getting at is that there is a PURPOSE to the trial that refines us and makes us more Godlike. That is the purpose of the trial in the first place, no matter what. But HOW does it make us Godlike? Becoming closer to HF and learning to trust him are not Godly traits, I don't think (and I can be persuaded otherwise, like I said, I'm thinking out loud here). Is it that we will always choose right? Is it that since we choose the right and trust God that the elements will learn to obey us because we are always fair, right, whatever, just as they do with God (even the elements obey him, he can't lie or else he would cease to be God, or the elements WOULDN'T obey him)?

I know we shouldn't have things handed to us. But how do we become Godly thru trials?

Edited July 16, 2009 by sixpacktr

[Traveler]

I knew I wasn't being very clear, mainly because this is kind of still forming in my head.

I understand all the 'church seminary' answers to the question. We will choose right no matter what, we need to learn to trust in God, we will be refined.

I guess what I'm getting at is that there is a PURPOSE to the trial that refines us and makes us more Godlike. That is the purpose of the trial in the first place, no matter what. But HOW does it make us Godlike? Becoming closer to HF and learning to trust him are not Godly traits, I don't think (and I can be persuaded otherwise, like I said, I'm thinking out loud here). Is it that we will always choose right? Is it that since we choose the right and trust God that the elements will learn to obey us because we are always fair, right, whatever, just as they do with God (even the elements obey him, he can't lie or else he would cease to be God, or the elements WOULDN'T obey him)?

I know we shouldn't have things handed to us. But how do we become Godly thru trials?

There are two purposes in trails as I understand covenants.

1. An opportunity to prove our loyalty to our covenant and faith in our G-d – not proof just to G-d but to our self. It helps us establish what really is important to us. We can say we love others and also that we enjoy our freedom but only through experience where these are in conflict do we understand which is really most important to us.

2. Sometimes we get blessings and curses mixed up and we think blessing are curses and curses are blessings. That which brings us to our knees in humility seeking assistance from G-d is really a blessing. That which dilutes us into thinking we are the masters of our fate are really a curse. One of eternity’s most difficult challenges for intelligent and powerful beings is pride. Alma asks the question – “Have you been stripped of your pride?” The only way to be rid of pride is through trials that in turn bring us to G-d.

Only by experience of turning to G-d can we become g-dly.

The Traveler

[bytebear]

Every principle of the gospel is true. But we don't know that. We must try the principle and prove that it is true. Let's take an example. Tithing. It's easy to pay tithing when we have a great job, are making lots of money, can feed our families. If we are never tried, we will never know what the blessings of tithing really are, because we never really see the results of sacrifice, because we aren't really sacrificing. But if we lose our job, fall under hardship, then we really will struggle with tithing, and we must prove the principle. If we continue to pay tithing, we will see how our lives are blessed. We can never know the depth of that blessing without the trial.

[hordak]

I knew I wasn't being very clear, mainly because this is kind of still forming in my head.

I understand all the 'church seminary' answers to the question. We will choose right no matter what, we need to learn to trust in God, we will be refined.

I guess what I'm getting at is that there is a PURPOSE to the trial that refines us and makes us more Godlike. That is the purpose of the trial in the first place, no matter what. But HOW does it make us Godlike? Becoming closer to HF and learning to trust him are not Godly traits, I don't think (and I can be persuaded otherwise, like I said, I'm thinking out loud here). Is it that we will always choose right? Is it that since we choose the right and trust God that the elements will learn to obey us because we are always fair, right, whatever, just as they do with God (even the elements obey him, he can't lie or else he would cease to be God, or the elements WOULDN'T obey him)?

I know we shouldn't have things handed to us. But how do we become Godly thru trials?

I was speaking with my father on this idea the other day.

I believe (warning speculation, non LDS answer) that what your thinking out loud is true. I have met many people (LDS and "traditional" christian ) who think that trials are there to "push" us back to God and many think they are worse the farther one is from God.

I see it as the opposite, if the purpose of life is to become like our heavenly father then just like our mortal life trying to become like our earthly parents we "grow away" from them in a sense.

As we grow older physically we have more trials and the goal is to overcome them with the knowledge we have gained from our earthy parents and Not to rely on them. Perhaps the same is true of heavenly father as well? Perhaps we become Godly by overcoming the trials "on our own" with what was taught to us rather then by reliance similarly to the way we become adults?

There's a non seminary answer for you. :)

[sixpacktr]

Man, tons of things going thru my mind, want to get them down. This will be kind of stream of consciousness, but I hope I make sense.

Still seeing some 'seminary answers' and I don't mean that in a snotty way, because I think we are conditioned to just think 'well it makes us humble', but Traveler and Hordak have got me to thinking along a different line. As I read their posts and thought of them for a couple of minutes, I had the word 'holy' pop into my head. We are to learn to become holy like our HF, and trials can bring that about.

Another aspect of trials is developing faith in God, I know, more importantly faith in Jesus Christ and the atonement. The atonement makes all things right, eventually, because it reverses the affects of sin and sorrow. We know that thru faith the worlds were and are created, but was that faith in Christ that created those worlds?

In Genesis, after Adam and Eve partook of the fruit, God noted that 'they have become as we are, knowing good and evil'. That is part of being God, obviously. There is no gray in heaven. It is pure light, because lies and deception and falsehood cannot abide the presence of God. Because he is holy. So, do trials help us become holy? Sanctified? More able to discern truth from error?

God is God because the elements obey him. All things obey him because they know that he is ultimately right and all-powerful. If, however, he goes against his word, even once, we are told that he will 'cease to be God'. That, to me, would mean that the elements and others would no longer trust him to do the right thing, and would withdraw their allegiance. Withouth subjects, who can be King?

As I said, stream of consciousness, but do you see where I'm going with this? God is holy. So, do our trials, in some way, sanctify us to become holy? Is that their purpose?

We know that some trials are brought upon us by our own actions, some by the evil designs of others, some thru no fault of our own. They come in all kinds, sizes, and duration. But they are all meant to make us like HF.

Thanks to all for their input. I hope this keeps going, that others will chime in. I feel like something is on the tip of my spiritual tongue, as it were, and that there is a breakthru about to happen to me, kind of a 'oooohhhhh, so THAT'S the reason!' type of understanding.

Again, forgive the rambling scattered writing. Things are coming to me as I write and I wanted to get them down...

Edited July 16, 2009 by sixpacktr

[bytebear]

The glory of God is intelligence, or in other words, LIGHT and TRUTH. So, light is eternally connected with truth. We are taught that through the Holy Ghost we can know the truth of all things. Once we know all truth, we become pure light (going along with your thougths). So, how do we know truth? Through experience. No other way to know than to live it.

[sixpacktr]

So, trials give me humility, which gives me the opportunity for a closer relationship with the HG which in turn gives me pure light and knowledge, as well as experience. And as I gain more light and knowledge and don't abandon them, I become more holy....and thus more God-like...

[bytebear]

Articles of Faith:

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

What does that really mean in this context?

[Justice]

Yes, it teaches us that we can't make it on our own.

It seems many people have a hard time asking for help. It's hard enough to pray and ask God for help, but asking a neighbor for help seems to be even harder.

We chose to come here and to rely on the Messiah for deliverance. We seldom do.

When one studies and understands Moroni 7 it becomes more clear.

If somethings causes us to believe in Christ it is of God and good. If something does not cause us to believe in Christ it is of the devil, and bad. That's a very long way from where most of us are.

[Elgama]

for me the greatest good comes out of the greatest evil - trials are usually our greatest blessings if we choose to take them head on and use them to progress

The classic is WW2 a time of great suffering but the advances made because of war allowed us to put people on the moon and feed more people

-Charley

[lilered]

How else would one appreciate the good if not to also expierence the bad? Part of our learning while we are here on earth is to be tested and to gain expierence. Part of that expierence is to expierence trials and tribulations just as it is to expierence good and joy.

[Traveler]

So, trials give me humility, which gives me the opportunity for a closer relationship with the HG which in turn gives me pure light and knowledge, as well as experience. And as I gain more light and knowledge and don't abandon them, I become more holy....and thus more God-like...

This post looks very interesting. I would add the concept of whole. It does appear (even with Job) that the concept of wholeness requires a trial. Even Jesus did not consider him self perfect (meaning whole) like unto the Father until he had completed his trial.

The Traveler

[qedd]

Muscle grows stronger as it repeatedly faces resistance.

[qedd]

Love, charity, faith, understanding, comprehension, and mastery of thought and action only come through experience.

[Traveler]

Love, charity, faith, understanding, comprehension, and mastery of thought and action only come through experience.

There is an old saying - you get wisdom from experience and you get experience because of the lack of wisdom.

The Traveler

[sixpacktr]

Traveler,

You've given me another tangent to go on here. So trials, by making us humble, cause us to 'find our knees' and beg for help, deliverance, direction, whatever our trial may be. As we become humble and supplicate for help, the HG is able to fill us with light. As we are filled with more light, and thus become more Godlike (increase in knowledge, either thru the trial itself and the ways of people, or thru those 'pure strokes of inspiration' that Bro Joseph spoke of), we come to understand, particularly, the power of the atonement in our lives to 'reverse' sorrows and such. As we understand the atonement more, it becomes more in force in this life, and not, as one speaker recently stated in one of our HC Sunday talks, as a 'get out of free card' to be used at the end, but rather here and now. And as we use the atonement in our life, Christ covers our 'multitude of sins' and we thus become whole, or one with Him and our HF (as you know, the better translation for the greek was whole and not perfect).

And that gets us to the purpose of trials. We can become God-like, becoming like Him as Christ was like Him, or Nephi in 3rd Nephi was like Him (when the Lord told him to ask whatever he wished because He knew that Nephi would not ask for anything amiss or contrary to God's will). And that is sanctification, and we are justified in our actions because our HF knows that we would do as He would do, because our spirits are so in tune with His will.

I have a new appreciation of trials. I love how Paul put in in Hebrews, how we wish we weren't in them while we're in them, but that afterwards we see the growth. But this thread has helped me understand more fully the deeper doctrine that lies underneath trials.

Thanks.

Edited July 21, 2009 by sixpacktr

[MissyP]

I was thinking about what we know about the Celestial Kingdom, Exaltation and our own Spirit Children. I think it's a Stress Test! We're being tested to see if we can handle the great responsibility when we're under a lot of pressure, under a lot of grief and stress!

Or atleast those are my thoughts. Not doctrine or anything.

[lilered]

Think of it like this: For those of us who are satisfied to live our life here on earth as we are, do not repent, and die in our sins, we will inherit the earth as we now know it, Telestial Glory.

For those of us who are honorable people "who were blinded by the craftiness of men, not valiant in our testimony of Jesus, and may have rejected the gospel while living will inherit the Terrestial Glory.

The Celestial Glory - is what we all should strive for so that we can indeed be with God and Jesus Christ and have all blessings afforded to us that are possible, which includes being Kings and Queens etc..

So rather than stress, we replace this feeling with desire for the very best we can achieve for ourselves and our loved ones and do our part to ensure that this happens.

[RainbowTrigger]

Think of it like this: For those of us who are satisfied to live our life here on earth as we are, do not repent, and die in our sins, we will inherit the earth as we now know it, Telestial Glory.

For those of us who are honorable people "who were blinded by the craftiness of men, not valiant in our testimony of Jesus, and may have rejected the gospel while living will inherit the Terrestial Glory.

The Celestial Glory - is what we all should strive for so that we can indeed be with God and Jesus Christ and have all blessings afforded to us that are possible, which includes being Kings and Queens etc..

So rather than stress, we replace this feeling with desire for the very best we can achieve for ourselves and our loved ones and do our part to ensure that this happens.

When Joseph Smith saw the Telestial Glory in vision he said it surpasses all understanding. So it's unimaginably better than what we have now (I say better because we're talking about glory here, it's not going to be unimaginably horrifying). Don't go ahead and shoot for it though, because in comparison to the Celestial, it's probably "hell".

[lilered]

D&C: Sec. 76

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

90 And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.

[sixpacktr]

one more quote:

"You never know how much you really believe anything until its truth or falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you. It is easy to say you believe a rope to be strong and sound as long as you are merely using it to cord a box. But suppose you had to hang by that rope over a precipice. Wouldn’t you then first discover how much you really trusted it?… Only a real risk tests the reality of belief." -

C.S. Lewis said this in "A Grief Observed"... he lived in a world of books and lectures until his wife came along... he wrote this while she was dieing... I guess you would have to read the whole book to get the entire significance of this statement. The point is, trials make things real - we think we understand/have faith / hope / trust - we think we have these things as we think the chord is strong... it isn't until you are hanging from that chord over the previpice that it all becomes real. Trials are where we make the leap from words and thoughts to reality.

I see what you are getting at, but somehow it doesn't seem to fit in with what I am asking. I think that it falls into the 'trials make us more dependent upon God', which, of course, is a good thing, but my original point was the WHY it was a good thing.

As I've read a couple of the posts here, I see that they were going down that same road as me--trials are for our benefit, but it is more than learning to trust God. Traveler's thoughts got me to the holy-->sanctification POV, which makes sense to me. The constant companionship of the HG helps us make right choices, to the point where we act as God would act in our place (and vice versa). So trials help us become as God is, because, if we ENDURE THEM WELL, with humble hearts, we become holy, without spot.