Proof that God Answers Prayer???

[Snow]

In another thread a poster, in response to my claim that there is no proof God answers prayers, said:

...

On the other hand, there is incontrovertible evidence that he does answer prayers, but that evidence is reserved for those that have put in the necessary effort. I'm honestly sorry that you are in a position that you have not such evidence. Perhaps someday you will quit kicking against the pricks and do what is necessary to obtain the evidence.

If that were true, it would certainly be news to me - most welcome news. So please provide the evidence that prayers are answered by a supernatural deity and that the supernatural deity in the God of LDS understanding. I'll wait.

Please be sure that the evidence is "incontrovertible."

Prediction: can't and won't.

Oh - and as a side note, feel free to provide substantiation for your implied (and false) claim that I have not done what is necessary to obtain evidence. You seem to know something that I don't.

[skippy740]

Snow,

In your quoted paragraph, there is a particular line: "but that evidence is reserved for those that have put in the necessary effort."

The "incontrovertible evidence" is taught to us through the Holy Ghost. The nature of spiritual things can only be taught in a spiritual manner, not in a worldly manner.

At least, that's the way I take it.

[Snow]

Snow,

In your quoted paragraph, there is a particular line: "but that evidence is reserved for those that have put in the necessary effort."

The "incontrovertible evidence" is taught to us through the Holy Ghost. The nature of spiritual things can only be taught in a spiritual manner, not in a worldly manner.

At least, that's the way I take it.

I understand that you or the person that has their prayers answered feels that their prayers have in fact been answered - they may feel quite certain that such is the case.

Peoples feelings, beliefs and convictions are not at issue. The poster spoke to incontrovertible evidence. That's what is being asked for.

It simply won't do to say - 'there's proof - but it's hidden and unavailable for review.' That's not evidence - that's belief, faith, the substance of things hoped for.

[glow_inthe_dark_girl]

IMO, there is no evidence, we can not prove the prayers are answered, I mean like scientific proof but for most of the people that have faith on the prayer they feel it has been answered so it is taken as a proof.

I think on religious matter there's not place for asking for proof, we believe in God, I have never seen Him or Jesus Christ, I know they live , I dont think if I had the opportunity to see them I would be more convinced that they exist than I am right now. is called faith.

if the question is if we can prove it, I say no I can't prove it. Is like the type of questions atheist ask: prove g.d exist, I respond I cant prove, but can you prove He doesn't exist? they can't either.

The last function of reason is to recognize that there are an infinity of things which surpass it.

[prospectmom]

OK Snow then what is the point in our religion ... in our beliefs??? We really can not prove any of it can we??? so true so why even bother???????

A friend said the proof is Humanity still exists

Edited July 25, 2009 by prospectmom

[RainbowTrigger]

If you're looking for physical, perceivable, and tangible evidence of things that are spiritual, that's impossible. You cannot prove a negative. To try and prove something that exists beyond our bounds of perception (our 5 senses) is pointless. And atheists think we're stupid for believing in something we cannot see... Most people fail to recognize that we are all part of the universe, not higher than it... Arrogant humans... How pathetic.

[Moksha]

Snow,

In your quoted paragraph, there is a particular line: "but that evidence is reserved for those that have put in the necessary effort."

Good point. I suspect that if Mr. Snow took a solitary hike through the wilderness while fasting and praying, then ate a Mexican insanity pepper, that something would come to him. But has he tried this sage advice? Ohhh Noooo!

Hope this was helpful.

:)

[Guest missingsomething]

I think the scriptures accurately describe how we should respond to people who ask for proof. Or maybe rather how God responds to people who tempt him ... see scriptures below.

You know... snow... no matter what people said, you would deny it and content with it. The prophets of the LDS church has told us not to content with people with closed minds as it invites the "spirit of contention" which is not of Christ. So, if you want "evidence" pray and ask for it.

#

12 And this aAnti-Christ, whose name was Korihor, (and the law could have no hold upon him) began to preach unto the people that there should be bno Christ. And after this manner did he preach, saying:

• • •

23 Now the high priest’s name was Giddonah. And Korihor said unto him: Because I do not teach the foolish traditions of your fathers, and because I do not teach this people to bind themselves down under the foolish ordinances and performances which are laid down by ancient priests, to usurp power and authority over them, to keep them in ignorance, that they may not lift up their heads, but be brought down according to thy words.

• • •

36 And Korihor answered him, Yea.

• • •

43 And now Korihor said unto Alma: If thou wilt show me a asign, that I may be convinced that there is a God, yea, show unto me that he hath power, and then will I be convinced of the truth of thy words.

• • •

48 Now Korihor said unto him: I do not deny the existence of a God, but I do not believe that there is a God; and I say also, that ye do not know that there is a God; and except ye show me a sign, I will not believe.

• • •

50 Now when Alma had said these words, Korihor was struck dumb, that he could not have utterance, according to the words of Alma.

51 And now when the chief judge saw this, he put forth his hand and wrote unto Korihor, saying: Art thou convinced of the power of God? In whom did ye desire that Alma should show forth his sign? Would ye that he should afflict others, to show unto thee a sign? Behold, he has showed unto you a sign; and now will ye dispute more?

52 And Korihor put forth his hand and wrote, saying: I know that I am dumb, for I cannot speak; and I know that nothing save it were the apower of God could bring this upon me; yea, and I always bknew that there was a God.

• • •

56 And it came to pass that the curse was not taken off of Korihor; but he was acast out, and went about from house to house begging for his food.

57 Now the knowledge of what had happened unto Korihor was immediately published throughout all the land; yea, the proclamation was sent forth by the chief judge to all the people in the land, declaring unto those who had believed in the words of Korihor that they must speedily repent, alest the same judgments would come unto them.

58 And it came to pass that they were all convinced of the wickedness of Korihor; therefore they were all converted again unto the Lord; and this put an end to the iniquity after the manner of Korihor. And Korihor did go about from house to house, begging food for his support.

#

Alma 31: 1

1 Now it came to pass that after the end of Korihor, Alma having received tidings that the Zoramites were perverting the ways of the Lord, and that Zoram, who was their leader, was leading the hearts of the people to abow down to dumb bidols, his heart again began to csicken because of the iniquity of the people.

[nannysherri]

My question to you snow is, are you looking for an answer or a debate? Questions are always answered if you are humble to the answers. If you already have it in your mind that it is not true, you will not be able to feel and hear the small voice that comes from the spirt. Here in mortality with limited ablility we cannot prove answers to your question. The only way to know is to ask with real intent and willing to listen before you can be ready to hear the truth.

[MarginOfError]

I have to agree with Snow, in that there is no 'incontrovertible proof' that God answers prayers. If we accept, for the sake of argument, the scientific application of proof (more correctly: evidence) we would need replicable, verifiable results that can be reliably observed, quantified or categorized, and measured.

But here's the catch: you can't observe, quantify, and categorize answers to prayer in a replicable and verifiable way. And that's because there's no way to objectively observe many of the things we pray for.

Here's the thing about prayer though: we weren't ever intended to have incontrovertible proof that God answers prayer. That was the entire point of the mortal existence: to act in accordance with God's commands without proof that God exists or answers prayer. To have incontrovertible proof that God answers prayers would completely violate one of the fundamental aspects of the Plan of Happiness. For that reason, it seems kind of silly to me to claim that such proof exists.

[skippy740]

Here's a different question: Would it be THAT terrible if you gave God the credit?

What if it WAS "just" coincidence? Would you be any worse off?

Just a thought.

[prospectmom]

Questions are always answered if you are humble to the answers

great point Nannysherri

[Guest missingsomething]

Here's a different question: Would it be THAT terrible if you gave God the credit?

What if it WAS "just" coincidence? Would you be any worse off?

Just a thought.

:) good point

[Connie]

I think Snow is arguing semantics again. Most of us don't want to accept such a narrow definition of "proof" as just scientific evidence.

Here is something i found actually in a Physical Science textbook from Brigham Young University that i thought was interesting:

From studies over the centuries four sources of knowledge are often identified: authority, intuition, reason, and sensation. But individuals do not weigh the value and validity of these sources equally. The psychologist-philosopher William James thought that people could be divided roughly into two camps depending on their temperament: the "tender-minded" and the "tough-minded."

The "tender-minded" are idealists. They see the world as being imbued with such absolutes as Truth, Good, Beauty, and God, with purposes centered on man--a world that is friendly to man's existence and aspirations. Religious people fall within this division and for them authority and intuition (direct, extrasensory knowledge such as the promptings of the Holy Ghost) are often highly valued.

The "tough-minded" tend toward naturalism. They see the world as sensation and reason alone present it to them--nothing more. The world is indifferent to human existence. The world is matter and motion. Nevertheless, the physical world as revealed by sensation and reason inspires awe and wonder and forms the passive environment in which humans develop and build individual lives, create meaning, and seek happiness.

Notwithstanding the division, each person develops his own worldview, which is likely to be a mix that does not fall cleanly into either camp.

So hows about lets all give each other a break and not think our own worldview or source of knowledge is the only "right" one.

[Guest snowi]

there is no proof . as there is no proof who is the real snow.

[pam]

Come on people. Snow is doing nothing more than getting you to think. Don't read more into his question than what there is. Snow will of course correct me if I'm wrong (he always does) but I don't think there is a doubt he "believes" God answers prayers. He is only responding to a comment that was made.

How many times in Fast and Testimony meeting have you heard "I am standing here as proof that God answers prayers?" I know I have heard it more than once. While we can listen to their story and nod our heads in agreement with their testimony it is the "believing" that we are agreeing with not the "proof."

As Snow predicted I will have to say I can't prove that God answers prayers. But I firmly believe that he does. I have faith that he does and that's what gets me through.

[Gatorman]

I can not prove that God created the Earth in 6 24 hour periods versus some million years.

I can not prove that Man and all creatures were created by a snap of God's fingers versus evolution.

I can not prove that we will stand before a judgement seat at the end of this world and be judged.

I can not prove that questioning the value of the teaching of our Heavenly Father, including Prayers and its powers, will have severe negative affects on the outcome of ones own judgement.

But, I certainly am not willing to risk finding out by challenging Heavenly Father.

[prospectmom]

One thin for sure can e said Snow is the best at getting folks to look at their beliefs. You are right pam

[pam]

I can not prove that God created the Earth in 6 24 hour periods versus some million years.

I can not prove that Man and all creatures were created by a snap of God's fingers versus evolution.

I can not prove that we will stand before a judgement seat at the end of this world and be judged.

I can not prove that questioning the value of the teaching of our Heavenly Father, including Prayers and its powers, will have severe negative affects on the outcome of ones own judgement.

But, I certainly am not willing to risk finding out by challenging Heavenly Father.

I totally agree with your comments. In regards to your last sentence, I don't think Snow is doing that either.

[Gatorman]

Well, based on the other thread, I don't share your opinion on snow. But, all I can do is pray that is he not like unto Korohor, for his words and actions, that I have seen, suggest he is.

I totally agree with your comments. In regards to your last sentence, I don't think Snow is doing that either.

[Guest missingsomething]

Come on people. Snow is doing nothing more than getting you to think. Don't read more into his question than what there is. Snow will of course correct me if I'm wrong (he always does) but I don't think there is a doubt he "believes" God answers prayers. He is only responding to a comment that was made.

How many times in Fast and Testimony meeting have you heard "I am standing here as proof that God answers prayers?" I know I have heard it more than once. While we can listen to their story and nod our heads in agreement with their testimony it is the "believing" that we are agreeing with not the "proof."

As Snow predicted I will have to say I can't prove that God answers prayers. But I firmly believe that he does. I have faith that he does and that's what gets me through.

Perhaps this is true but if you look at the other thread, when you flat out say that God does not listen to other peoples prayers to help you... I find your opinion to be hard to take away from his comments.

But, there is a spirit of "getting you to think" and a spirit of contention..... and if you arent inviting the spirit...well then the latter is true (in my opinion).

[Guest missingsomething]

Well, based on the other thread, I don't share your opinion on snow. But, all I can do is pray that is he not like unto Korohor, for his words and actions, that I have seen, suggest he is.

whoa... jinx you owe me a pepsi (referring to the other thread at the same time)

[pam]

Sorry but I also agree with what Snow said in the other thread. Let's be fair. He didn't flat out say that God does not listen to other people's prayers to help someone. He just mentioned that God probably doesn't intercede in the job interviewing process based on getting others to pray. There is a huge difference in never and in this one instance.

[Mahone]

Come on people. Snow is doing nothing more than getting you to think.

Hmm, and in doing so he (she?) meets the vast majority of the definition of an internet troll, especially in recent posts. I agree with a lot of what he says too, but not how he presented it.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Mahone

[Gatorman]

I am asking you in your role as a moderator pam, is it okay for a member of this forum to take the faith and belief of another member and mock it and flatly state that it is a waste? Is it okay for a member to suggest that another is wasting their time and other peoples by asking for prayers that Heavenly Father won't answer? Is it okay for a member to flat out state or agree with another post that the only value asking others to pray will have is psychological?

I am not even addressing the concept that God is soo busy, he does not care to intercede for us on a job interview. Or, that God has not proven hard evidence via the scriptures that he answers prayers. I am simply question the ability of a member of this forum to take a member who is clearly stressed and distressed and tear apart their desire to excercise their faith to make a point that is questionable at best. If this is the type of thing that is allowed on this forum, then, I will need to write a note to Heather and suggest she remove the LDS name from the forum, for it clearly does not serve according to LDS standards, as I understand them.

Sorry but I also agree with what Snow said in the other thread. Let's be fair. He didn't flat out say that God does not listen to other people's prayers to help someone. He just mentioned that God probably doesn't intercede in the job interviewing process based on getting others to pray. There is a huge difference in never and in this one instance.