Canadian health care will kill you

[FunkyTown]

Most countries are actually two-tier systems, so treatment isn't limited at all if one pays insurance but the nation system can treat all life threatening conditions and just about all others within reason. Wikipedia explains it quite well. The misinformation here or maybe misunderstanding is amazing.

A good example could be any typical uncomfortable minor hernia -in two-tier systems if you have private cover you are booked into a private hospital and fixed in a day or two, but if one doesn't then you go to the public system where the waiting list for non-life threatening, called elective surgery, will be months. But either way you are fixed up. If its life threatening, eg myocardial infarction, the public system will do everything quickly from coronary angiogram to stent or bipass, whatever is needed, at no cost to the patient. But if one has private cover one can choose a private room in a private hospital with cable tv and fresh flowers every day if that's your way....plus getting done off course.

This is actually true.

I currently live in Britain and I have purchased health insurance despite the nationalized health care. I'm insured for dental and health care and can visit Doctors as part of private clinics without fear of giant bills.

Nobody has said I can't spend money for better coverage.

[Charlyc]

I know lots of Canadians and they would disagree with you assertions. I seem to recall that the War in Iraq was approved by Republicans and Democrats and I am fairly certain that Australia pitched in as well. I am guessing here, but I imagine that millions of Iraqi's and future generations of Iraqi's are quite pleased with the liberation and will be even more pleased as time passes.

Why do so many Mormons identify with the Republican party? The Democratic party, right or wrong, tends to be very outspoken against religious people.......Judeo-Christian people mainly, they tend to support g/l marriage, abortion and the Hollywood crowd. That sort of flies in the face of Mormon beliefs.

Goodness, I only just read this. So then, the ends justify the means? Liberation? I doubt it. Invading a sovereign nation on a mistaken belief is simply a war crime in my book no matter what the long term outcome. And sure australia sent some air traffic controllers and some medical personnel but then Howard lost the 08 election partly due to his iraq war support and became only the second PM in australian history to loose his seat in an election defeat. Nice going. But then again Blair and the spanish PM also lost their jobs partly over Iraq war. If things were really just in this world, Bush + Blair and probably Howard and the spanish PM would all be tried as war criminals. How 'Christian' Mormons could ever support a war, and an illegal one at that, is beyond me at least.

On health care, look keep the system you now have, it doesn't affect me. I guess you don't consider young people as countable in these stats, or illegals, so I doubt I could ever convince you of the problems everyone sees with the US system, so I'll leave it at that. But on that Iraq war, well seems that because you agree with the gop's social agenda as opposed to democrats, you'll accept any war they may want. If I remember correctly Bush started with skirmishes with the Chinese with those 'captured' fighters but 9/11 changed his tactics, but I guess you'd be talking about 'liberating' the Chinese had a war occurred back in '01? never mind...

[MarginOfError]

I'll just put out there that I'm Mormon, registered as a democrat, tend to agree with liberal politics more than I do with conservative, and I work in the health care industry. With all those qualifications to my name, the 'health care reform' that has been put together is for of a health care regression. And I sincerely hope it doesn't pass.

Granted, there are elements in the bill that I would happily accept, but it's surrounded by so much garbage that it becomes conflicting, impossible to comply with, expensive, and irresponsible.

I've said it before, so I may as well say it again. Government involvement in health care would be tragic. And I say this because of how well the government has managed Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and the like. Thanks, but no thanks.

The limit of reform I am willing to accept is single payer preventative care where the government pays the bills for primary care...that is one annual visit to a primary care provider, maternity care, wellness child visits (up to two or three years), and vaccinations. Anything beyond that and the government is too involved.

[MarginOfError]

Goodness, I only just read this. So then, the ends justify the means? Liberation? I doubt it. Invading a sovereign nation on a mistaken belief is simply a war crime in my book no matter what the long term outcome. And sure australia sent some air traffic controllers and some medical personnel but then Howard lost the 08 election partly due to his iraq war support and became only the second PM in australian history to loose his seat in an election defeat. Nice going. But then again Blair and the spanish PM also lost their jobs partly over Iraq war. If things were really just in this world, Bush + Blair and probably Howard and the spanish PM would all be tried as war criminals. How 'Christian' Mormons could ever support a war, and an illegal one at that, is beyond me at least.

On health care, look keep the system you now have, it doesn't affect me. I guess you don't consider young people as countable in these stats, or illegals, so I doubt I could ever convince you of the problems everyone sees with the US system, so I'll leave it at that. But on that Iraq war, well seems that because you agree with the gop's social agenda as opposed to democrats, you'll accept any war they may want. If I remember correctly Bush started with skirmishes with the Chinese with those 'captured' fighters but 9/11 changed his tactics, but I guess you'd be talking about 'liberating' the Chinese had a war occurred back in '01? never mind...

You're just as blind as the people you are criticizing. It's great that you can read talking points and recite them. But the issues you address are far more complicated than what your language seems to recognize. So far, I'm not even convinced you have the cognitive capacity to interpret the complexity.

[Charlyc]

You mean like when they rejected Mitt Romney for being a Mormon? Hey wait, that wasn't the Democrats.

Missionaries do not include the question, "do you have right-wing political beliefs" in their lessons. They seem to want people of all political persuasions.

Good point. In my downunder ignorance I thought that democratic massachusses (how ever its spelled :) ) elected a mormon Romney but then his religion became a big issue in the GOP primaries.

[Charlyc]

You're just as blind as the people you are criticizing. It's great that you can read talking points and recite them. But the issues you address are far more complicated than what your language seems to recognize. So far, I'm not even convinced you have the cognitive capacity to interpret the complexity.

Why thankyou for making this discussion personal. Now your views on that illegal invasion of that sovereign nation Iraq is......... ummmm.... missing in action? dead young soldiers, dead older soldiers, all heroes off course. very heroic! medal of honor worth....whatever!

And heath care.....never mind, keep you barbaric system as it is, let the uninsured ysa who breaks a leg end up bankrupt......

[MarginOfError]

Goodness, I only just read this. So then, the ends justify the means? Liberation? I doubt it. Invading a sovereign nation on a mistaken belief is simply a war crime in my book no matter what the long term outcome. And sure australia sent some air traffic controllers and some medical personnel but then Howard lost the 08 election partly due to his iraq war support and became only the second PM in australian history to loose his seat in an election defeat. Nice going. But then again Blair and the spanish PM also lost their jobs partly over Iraq war. If things were really just in this world, Bush + Blair and probably Howard and the spanish PM would all be tried as war criminals. How 'Christian' Mormons could ever support a war, and an illegal one at that, is beyond me at least.

On health care, look keep the system you now have, it doesn't affect me. I guess you don't consider young people as countable in these stats, or illegals, so I doubt I could ever convince you of the problems everyone sees with the US system, so I'll leave it at that. But on that Iraq war, well seems that because you agree with the gop's social agenda as opposed to democrats, you'll accept any war they may want. If I remember correctly Bush started with skirmishes with the Chinese with those 'captured' fighters but 9/11 changed his tactics, but I guess you'd be talking about 'liberating' the Chinese had a war occurred back in '01? never mind...

You're just as blind as the people you are criticizing. It's great that you can read talking points and recite them. But the issues you address are far more complicated than what your language seems to recognize. So far, I'm not even convinced you have the cognitive capacity to interpret the complexity.

Why thankyou for making this discussion personal. Now your views on that illegal invasion of that sovereign nation Iraq is......... ummmm.... missing in action? dead young soldiers, dead older soldiers, all heroes off course. very heroic! medal of honor worth....whatever!

And heath care.....never mind, keep you barbaric system as it is, let the uninsured ysa who breaks a leg end up bankrupt......

Thank you for illustrating my point with such brilliant colors. You should get a Caldecott for your work.

[Charlyc]

Here's the breakdown of the mythical 45.7 million farce:

* 10 million are illegals.

* 17 million clear $50k a year and for various reasons, choose not to have insurance.

Soooo 45.7 - 10 - 17 = 18.7 * 55% = 10.3 million

But the 45 million # is pure crap. ...

Amazing!! sooo 10 million illegals aren't people? and if they get TB they don't spread it to the rest of the population. Soooo you can subtract them from your stats? Amazing! (but I keep hearing 25-40 million illegals from Hannity, but he exaggerates right?) And the guy who started a career and is paid $50k will never get TB, or hepA or anything that isn't contagious. And if he breaks both legs, arms and back, well thats just too bad for not being a good boy scout and paying the insurance company first before his apartment or new car? or does he go bankrupt to cover hospital costs? Amazing! Just subtract away....

[Charlyc]

You should get a Caldecott for your work.

You can send me yours.

But your view on that illegal Iraq war is..........still missing in action, right? You are the intelligent one here, right? or maybe I got you all wrong?

[FunkyTown]

You can send me yours.

But your view on that illegal Iraq war is..........still missing in action, right? You are the intelligent one here, right? or maybe I got you all wrong?

Whoah there, Charly.

Moe isn't the enemy here. He said the issue was a complex one, and you're right:

Bush invaded without the UN's approval, using pretexts that never came true. Al Qaeda weren't found there, nor were weapons of mass destruction, nor did the liberation of Iraq save lives.

That does not make him a war criminal. Saddam Hussein was a bad guy. He gassed his own people. He used torture, rape and violence to seal his regime's power. He attempted to invade Kuwait for personal gain and thumbed his nose at the international community who claimed he was attempting to build nuclear weapons. To claim Bush was a monster invading a poor, innocent country is naive to say the least.

And complexity goes further. Despite personally believing in universal health care, I am going to make the argument most Americans who dislike the idea would make:

America was founded with a strong sense of rugged individualism, with many believing in the inherent corruptability of centralized government. This is embodied by Ronald Reagan's famous quote: "Nothing is more frightening than the words: I'm from the government and I'm here to help." The centralization of power and authority of something as important as health care is counter to that ideal.

Worse, when the government gets in to business, it all too easily creates a monopoly and monopolies guarantee high costs as the group in question doesn't have any incentive to lower prices or compete. If the government provided universal health coverage, it will result in services that are more expensive and cumbersome than the same private services. Restricting the free market, also, runs counter to the American soul in many places.

I believe there are answers to these complaints. I won't get in to them because they're irrelevant. I'm merely trying to illustrate that the issues are complex.

Don't insult Moe because he says things are more nuanced than you're giving credit for. They are. I like universal health care, but to treat someone as stupid because they don't doesn't do your cause any credit, nor is it even realistic. There are many ambiguities that must be addressed.

[Charlyc]

Whoah there, Charly.

Moe isn't the enemy here. He said the issue was a complex one, and you're right:

Bush invaded without the UN's approval, using pretexts that never came true. Al Qaeda weren't found there, nor were weapons of mass destruction, nor did the liberation of Iraq save lives.

That does not make him a war criminal. Saddam Hussein was a bad guy. He gassed his own people....

Don't insult Moe because he says things are more nuanced than you're giving credit for. They are. I like universal health care, but to treat someone as stupid because they don't doesn't do your cause any credit, nor is it even realistic. There are many ambiguities that must be addressed.

I think it was Moe who started insulting with his "You should get a Caldecott for your work" and previously "I'm not even convinced you have the cognitive capacity to interpret the complexity". His language was a thinly disguised personal attack, far from the issues discussed here.

But note that I never said that Sadam was any good. By all accounts he was a monster. But its about the actions we take. Was there a justification for the invasion? Bush snr didn't think there were after removing Sadam from Kuwait, why bring up Kuwait now? Nor did I call Bush jnr a 'monster', he wasn't, but to think that he is blameless today after his reasons were shown to be false, plus the UN didn't agree with him, is what is naive. Bush was a war criminal, but only as a negligent leader whose actions saw many thousands loose their lives. That doesn't make him a Hitler nor a Sadam but he isn't entirely innocent either. Now if he had somehow lost that war he would probably be in court in the Hague today! But he didn't so only history will judge him.

[Dravin]

Looking at the title all I can say is:

That's silly, assuming the worst case scenario of keeling over dead while waiting in line for treatment that would be them letting you die, not them killing you. Unless its supposed to be an accusation of medical malpractice resulting in death, then accusation of actively ending life might be appropriate.

[NeuroTypical]

Heck, I live in the U.S., and we have waiting times here! And rationing. The difference is that in the U.S., those who get the best care have the most money.

I'm the single wage earner for a family of four, we usually clear $55K/yr., and maybe $7K/yr goes to medical bills. We do not have "the most money".

* One family member gets her two doctor visits per week for low-urgency care.

* Another family member had heart surgery to correct something that was taking years off her life. It was a low-urgency condition, but we got it the same month we decided to.

* In the last several years, we've had surgery on a 'precancerous condition', thyroid surgery, double ankle surgery, vocal chord surgery. All very low in urgency, all without wait times, exactly when we needed them.

* We have numerous doctor visits per year on anything from pediatric neurology to endocrine system issues to PTSD counseling to well-child exams to women's stuff to the plantar wart on my foot that hurts. All of them happen when they're supposed to - no rationing, no waiting times.

* Between the four of us, we take maybe ten different prescriptions for anything from thyroid levels to cholesterol meds to antidepressants to seasonal allergies. We get to take them when we need them, because doctors are always available to write the needed prescriptions.

HEthePrimate's fearmongering via class-warfare doesn't match my middle-class experience. I have the worlds best healthcare for my family, who needs it very much.

Please, please, PLEASE don't let the government mess with it.

LM

[Prodigal_Son]

Amazing!! sooo 10 million illegals aren't people?

That's not the point. The point is that certain prominent lefties claim 45 million AMERICANS are uninsured.

...and if they get TB they don't spread it to the rest of the population. Soooo you can subtract them from your stats? Amazing!

What's AMAZING is that you think we should TOTALLY pay for the care of people who break our laws to come here. Surely you can't think that's feasible.

(but I keep hearing 25-40 million illegals from Hannity, but he exaggerates right?)

Don't listen to that mongrel idiot. He's a simpleton.

And the guy who started a career and is paid $50k will never get TB, or hepA or anything that isn't contagious. And if he breaks both legs, arms and back, well thats just too bad for not being a good boy scout and paying the insurance company first before his apartment or new car? or does he go bankrupt to cover hospital costs? Amazing! Just subtract away....

If you're clearing $50k a year then you can afford insurance (unless you have like a family of 10 or something). Make some lifestyle changes and screw the NEW car. Are you SERIOUS? He needs a NEW car before he needs health insurance? Nice priorities.

[john doe]

I would like to know the amount of cross-over that happens. For example, how many US citizens go to Mexico or Canada for medical care as compared to how many Canadians and Mexicans come to the US for medical care.

[FunkyTown]

Americans Filching Free Health Care in Canada - The New York Times

Here's an example, JohnDoe. Make of it what you will, but it does happen.

EDIT: I should point out that the US has superior health care for those who can afford it. The doctors aren't overworked, there are more of them - Many of them Doctors from Canada who moved to the US after gaining a subsidized education in Canada because doctors in the US are paid more and work less hours.

Poor people come to Canada for health care. Rich people go to the US.

Edited August 7, 2009 by FunkyTown

[john doe]

You do realize that was written over 16 years ago, right? I was hoping for something a little more recent than that.

[FunkyTown]

You do realize that was written over 16 years ago, right? I was hoping for something a little more recent than that.

While there aren't a lot of vast changes to health care in the past few years, here are more recent examples:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/462504

Americans Going to Canada for Flu Shots - Health News - redOrbit

Bill Mann: Americans Who've Used Canada's Health-Care System Respond to Current Big-Lie Media Campaign

The Huffington Post is the most recent one.

I know it might shock some people, but many Americans do go to Canada for health care.

Even Cuba.

Cuba provides free health care without the worry | Worldfocus

Much as it might pain people, that's a real phenomenon. Yes, many Canadians go to the US for health care.

Those are the rich ones.

[KrazyKay]

I can tell you that many people here in Texas go to Mexico for health care as well because it is a lot cheaper than US care or heading north to Canada (for many of them).

If Obama's plan goes through, I am hoping it won't have the problems the current medicare and medicaid has. Right now my husband isn't working - he is looking but no one wants to hire someone with autism even if they are high functioning - but they won't say that is why, they just say "we'll call" and never do and never answer when he calls them. We've determined it is because of his autism. I'm going to college still working on my B.S. degree. So at the moment we do not have any income except the help from my parents to pay bills (luckily our house and truck are both paid off), which also means no insurance. I've tried getting help from the government with no luck. We were denied food stamps because we don't have a mortgage/rent payments or a car loan and we were denied medicare for our 9 year old daughter for the same reason - no mortgage/rent payments or car loans. I have yet to see anywhere in this proposed healthcare that will actually be helpful to people in our situation.

[Just_A_Guy]

Heck, I live in the U.S., and we have waiting times here! And rationing. The difference is that in the U.S., those who get the best care have the most money.

Whereas in a state-run health care system, the ones who get the best care are the ones with the best political connections. Of course, the rich tend to have better political connections, so the rich are still going to be getting better health care . . .

For my part, as long as I remain in America, the odds of my one day becoming rich are far better than my odds of one day having good political connections. So, forced to choose between a system that favors the rich and a system that favors the politically connected . . . I choose the former.

Ummm...facts aren't for fear mongering. Sure there may be 'poor' options available however Mrs Ramsey didn't have those available when her cancer returned so she just died, Obama's mum had to argue to get treatment even though she had cover, plus all the other anecdotes around

Just this week I posted a couple of anecdotes about the UK and the Oregon state-run health care systems. You might want to search the forums for them.

All countries seem to want to improve their health care and reduce costs but they start at full coverage first and then work on the problem. The US seems to do it the other way around, cover the rich first, make healthcare insurance businesses profitable and then think about the rest.........

I've mentioned in other discussions here, the population bomb and other social/economic factors that may well make long-term universal health care unsustainable. If you get people used to being on the dole for long periods of time, then when the federal gravy train gets derailed those people are worse off than they are before--because they have no idea how to take care of themselves (Exhibit A being New Orleans' response to Hurricane Katrina).

[prisonchaplain]

Medical tourism is a niche, but may be a solution for some middle class people. For example, I remember reading in an AARP magazine that India has ultra modern nursing homes with all-English speaking staff, and they charge around $1000/month instead of the very common $9000 or so here. Still, it's a stretch for most to send their ailing parents to India for care, but some are finding it a preferable alternative to bankruptcy.

Heart surgery in South Korea, Singapore, etc. runs less than half of U.S. costs. Often the care for common, but serious medical care is as good or better. What the U.S. excels at is the unusual, rare, or difficult treatments. For common ailments, many countries are cheaper and as good.

Personally, I get my no-line transitional lensed glasses (with all the coatings) for $70 to $80, by having friends send them from Korea. If we know we have extensive dentistry to do, we can often take a trip to Korea and pay the same for the whole trip as we'd pay just for the dentistry here.

None of what I said is relevent to nationalized healthcare, though. Another issue, most countries we compare to that have it are the size of one of our states. Would a national healthcare system in the U.S. run anything like one in Canada? Not so sure. And, Canada's system, while popular overall, is running into financial pressures. Often, rather than modernize, it economizes. And, if it does modernize in an area, taxes go up.

There's just no such thing as free healthcare. Wish there was a way of taking more consistent and systematic care of our poor, without burdening everyone with a single-payer system. Wish it wouldn't eat up 17% of our economy. Wish a lot things...pray for our leaders, per Rom. 13

[john doe]

Interesting FT, that you didn't find one article that says anything about people coming to the US for their healthcare needs. Because I could have sworn that a couple years ago I read about health clinics on the northern US border being swamped with Canadians who couldn't get prompt medical attention, and also about hospitals along the southern US border being swamped with illegals coming here just to have babies in the US. Partly to get US citizenship for their babies, but mainly because they wouldn't be charged for it. But maybe that was just my imagination. Do you have any real numbers or are you just spinning things to make your POV look better?

[FunkyTown]

Interesting FT, that you didn't find one article that says anything about people coming to the US for their healthcare needs. Because I could have sworn that a couple years ago I read about health clinics on the northern US border being swamped with Canadians who couldn't get prompt medical attention, and also about hospitals along the southern US border being swamped with illegals coming here just to have babies in the US. Partly to get US citizenship for their babies, but mainly because they wouldn't be charged for it. But maybe that was just my imagination. Do you have any real numbers or are you just spinning things to make your POV look better?

Wait... So you're asking if I have any numbers of people who are illegally using the Canadian system? You mean like... They're asked 'Are you American pretending to be Canadian to get free Health Care' and they checked yes?

No. Do you have any hard numbers of illegals working in the US where they checked something saying 'I am an illegal immigrant'?

All I have are what the news reports. And they're reporting poor people coming to Canada, along with several people on here who admitted going to other countries for health care. In fact, by 'Spinning', I assume you mean when I admitted Canadians are going to the US for quicker service because they had money?

Or are you just spinning things with ridiculous questions to make your POV look better?

[Guest Believer_1829]

I've never seen a person doing such a poor job of side stepping an obvious question in my life.

[Moksha]

Americans Filching Free Health Care in Canada - The New York Times

Here's an example, JohnDoe. Make of it what you will, but it does happen.

Perhaps Canada needs to erect miles of fence to keep the poor huddled masses of Americans yearning for health care on their own wretched shores.

The nerve of those Yankees!!!