Health Care Debate Morality Question

[Shego]

“According to the U.S. Census Bureau, nearly 46 million Americans, or 18 percent of the population under the age of 65, were without health insurance in 2007, their latest data available.”

That's what the National Coalition on Health Care says here:

NCHC | Facts About Healthcare - Health Insurance Coverage

Who is the NCHC? The Coalition’s cochairmen are a former Republican governor and a former Democratic member of the U.S. Congress; its honorary cochairs are former Presidents Jimmy Carter and George H.W. Bush. Look here :

National Coalition on Health Care

So... hopefully this will help with any percentage issues on who doesn't have Health Care. This appears to be a nonpartisan group offering real data - I cut/pasted the info above.

Before people start slicing the 18% into groups of people who don't 'deserve' or 'need' Health Care, I'd like to remind you what forum you are in.

This is a forum based on religion. I am not LDS, but I have to think? / hope? / guess? that somewhere there is a tenant about compassion and helping others? Or is compassion only to be done when it's convenient... or doesn't cost you anything?

There is a thread currently (sortof) concerning itself with the Health Care debate here:

http://www.lds.net/forums/general-discussion/24383-canadian-health-care-will-kill-you.html

I did not want to post in that thread because I look at the issue as a moral one. I found the other thread more of a Repub vs Demo debate lacking compassion or morality (honestly, I found it a bit too snarky for me).

I would like to toss out the suggestion that this is a moral issue and ask the questions:

How far would you go to help someone you don't know that will never tell you 'Thank you'?

Does your faith make you want to help to insure that person, or rather not and make that person more self-reliant somehow?

I am asking how YOU FEEL, so please keep your answer about yourself and your feelings and not attack another's posting.

Snarky free zone please. :)

[Just_A_Guy]

1. There is a difference between health insurance and health care.

2. Though it is difficult to figure out where the distinction is/should be, there remains a difference between critical and non-critical health care. I think my faith compels me to use my own resources to assist someone to attain the former, but not the latter. Under no circumstances do I consider myself justified in siccing the power of the United States Government on anyone who doesn't share my idea of charity.

3. Speaking hypothetically (and not limiting the discussion to health care), there's also a fine line between helping the needy and becoming an enabler. Jesus was charitable, but He was not a schmuck; and I don't think He expects us to be either.

[Moksha]

How is it that we Mormons can morally divorce ourselves from the care of the sick?

[Just_A_Guy]

Good question.

[Moksha]

Is that a loophole?

[beefche]

Why does my opposition to government run health care automatically paint me an uncharitable, evil, immoral, people-hater?

[Just_A_Guy]

Is that a loophole?

What do you think?

[Wingnut]

This is a forum based on religion. I am not LDS, but I have to think? / hope? / guess? that somewhere there is a tenant about compassion and helping others? Or is compassion only to be done when it's convenient... or doesn't cost you anything?

Sorry to be picky. I think you mean tenet.

[Maxel]

Moksha, I have a burning question for you:

What do you think the meaning is of Doctrine and Covenants 82:22?

Shego:

Basically, my own feelings reflect Just_A_Guy's points (although I couldn't state them as succinctly as he). I do want to point out the rich irony of the idea of government programs helping the poor to become more self-reliant. Extant government welfare programs do just the opposite: keep the poor on a dole and take that help away should they attempt to better themselves. I agree with Ben Franklin when he said (and I paraphrase) "the best way to help the poor is to make them uncomfortable in their poorness". Give the poor the help they need, but expect them to work to improve their situation. If the poor man refuses to work hard and improve his situation, and if he is able to work, than I feel said man should have help witheld from him until he becomes willing to help himself.

Not ironically, the LDS Church welfare system works along those lines.

As an aside: I absolutely love Kim Possible. Haven't watched it for years, but I loved it when I was on. It was one of my secret pleasures (I'm most decidedly male, lol). Ron Stoppable is the man!

[Just_A_Guy]

Not ironically, the LDS Church welfare system works along those lines.

Maxel, you will recall that even on this forum, some apparently question whether the LDS Church welfare system's way of doing things is really the most "Christian" way to go.

[Maxel]

Maxel, you will recall that even on this forum, some apparently question whether the LDS Church welfare system's way of doing things is really the most "Christian" way to go.

No way... I totally forgot about that post... Which I wrote.

[Prodigal_Son]

Taking this flawed logic to its extreme, we may as well ask ourselves "why hasn't the LDS Church solved world hunger yet?" "Why hasn't the LDS church remedied malnutrition?" "Why were there still healings needing to be performed after Christ's life and death?"

[Guest Believer_1829]

- Many of that 18% are people who choose not to have health insurance for whatever reason.

- Many are people here illegally and use our emergency rooms regularly, and could easily return to their own country for their medical care.

- Many are under 18 and I have no qualms with giving them health care.

Eliminate these groups and what are the numbers?

[Prodigal_Son]

Eliminate these groups and what are the numbers?

As mentioned in the other thread, the answer is detailed HERE.

[Palerider]

Why does my opposition to government run health care automatically paint me an uncharitable, evil, immoral, people-hater?

It doesn't make you an uncaring person....anyone that says that to you has been into the Kool Aid way to deep....

I say we should give everyone a home and food to eat...if the Gov't really cares and all these people say we are immoral...how can they make all these people go without food and shelter????

[john doe]

How is it that we Mormons can morally divorce ourselves from the care of the sick?

As far as I know, under the current US system, no one who needs health care is turned away from ERs. Are you aware of anyone who has been turned away because of their lack of money or insurance?

[Palerider]

How is it that we Mormons can morally divorce ourselves from the care of the sick?

how is it that Mormons can morally divorce themselves from homeless and people without food

[prisonchaplain]

Let's assume that the 18% figure is correct. Does this mean that 18% are without any healthcare. The poorest use emergency rooms as their healthcare. The richest can pay as they go. But, yes, there are some who need insurance and don't have it.

Then there's the reality that if we do offer nationalized healthcare, our taxes will support abortion on demand, adolescents will be able to access abortion without parental notification, and senior healthcare and care for rare conditions will be rationed. As a recent rather liberal columnist admitted death counseling...gently nudging seniors towards 'accepting pending death' so as not to be a burden, is just as morally reprehensible as willfully having nearly a fifth of society without basic coverage.

So, in the spirit of anti-snarkiness, there are moral people on both sides of this issue. Frankly, for me, liberty trumps broader insurance coverage. Nationalized care makes everyone's exercise and dietary practices a concern of the nanny state.

[bytebear]

It doesn't make you an uncaring person....anyone that says that to you has been into the Kool Aid way to deep....

I say we should give everyone a home and food to eat...if the Gov't really cares and all these people say we are immoral...how can they make all these people go without food and shelter????

I think it's wonderful to give and care for the sick and hungry. I find it immoral to force my neighbor to do so against his will. Charity is wonderful, but socialism is not. It defeats the purpose of free will.

Ezra Taft Benson was truly a prophet of God.

[Snow]

“

Before people start slicing the 18% into groups of people who don't 'deserve' or 'need' Health Care, I'd like to remind you what forum you are in.

This is a forum based on religion. I am not LDS, but I have to think? / hope? / guess? that somewhere there is a tenant about compassion and helping others? Or is compassion only to be done when it's convenient... or doesn't cost you anything?

Ah - the ole self-righteous guilt trip angle eh?

Bunch of malarky (your attempt at manipulation, not the topic).

[Snow]

How is it that we Mormons can morally divorce ourselves from the care of the sick?

Speak for yourself. If you have divorced yourself from serving your fellow man, repent and try and do better.

Edited August 16, 2009 by Snow

[Gatorman]

*looks at the idea posted.

Let me see if I can get this right. Standing against government enforce/provided/whatever health insurance for people is wrong? Being against a program that violates the constitution is wrong? Being for helping people but believing that government can not force it is wrong?

Let me try to compare, and the comparison is not perfect, but is part of how I address it:

Plan of Salvation - We are given a choice to accept the Savior, do good, and to be able to choose to return to Heavenly Father.

Satan's Plan - We will be forced by the Central Authority to do 'good', ensuring that everyone returns and does 'good'.

Sorry, Government enforced Health Care strikes me AWFULLY similar to Satan's plan. Go against the Constitution surely does as well. Now, wihtout using the general welfare clause, can anyone give me an authority in the US constitution where we the people gave the congress permission to act in our name for health care?

[john doe]

Forced charity is not true charity.

[Prodigal_Son]

Forced charity is not true charity.

Sir, please step back into the line and remain silent, lest we have the IRS audit you and make you regret your outburst.

[Palerider]

I had to take my "Angry Mob Costume" off and put my Sunday Suit on to attend Church.....:)....I will put my angry mob costume back on tomorrow....:eek: