The Cross Offensive

[lattelady]

I heard the same question so consistently that I think I just assumed there was some teaching or lesson given on the subject of the cross; the question about, "if your mother died in a car wreck, would you wear a miniature car..." I figured that was an illustration someone had used to perhaps drive home a point that focusing on the cross was morbid. It doesn't represent a dead Christ--all those who celebrate the message of the gospel are pretty clear that He's alive. To me, the cross is a symbol of the gospel message. It isn't morbid--it's the most beautiful thing I know.

[bytebear]

I heard the same question so consistently that I think I just assumed there was some teaching or lesson given on the subject of the cross; the question about, "if your mother died in a car wreck, would you wear a miniature car..." I figured that was an illustration someone had used to perhaps drive home a point that focusing on the cross was morbid. It doesn't represent a dead Christ--all those who celebrate the message of the gospel are pretty clear that He's alive. To me, the cross is a symbol of the gospel message. It isn't morbid--it's the most beautiful thing I know.

Nope, that is completely cultural. Nothing doctrinal or official about disdaining the cross. Funny how something becomes so common people think it's official. But it's not.

The closest thing is the prophet saying that we don't use crosses on our buildings is because we choose to remember the living Christ and have a steeple representing the assention into heaven, prayers and generally looking toward God, and the Moroni on some (but not all) temples, to remember the ushering in the restoration, and the angel trumpeting the eventual return of Christ. But nothing about condemning others for using it, and no one loses their temple recommend for having a cross in their house, or on their neck.

Edited August 24, 2009 by bytebear

[Mike Reed]

Did someone say cross? :-p Yes... as explained by Moksha, the LDS contempt for the cross symbol (which fundamentally had an anti-Catholic basis) was more of a development that started around the turn of the 20th century; later being institutionalized in the 1950s under the direction of LDS prophet David O. McKay, on grounds that it was "purely catholic." Prior to this time, many prominent Latter-day Saints embraced and promoted the symbol of the cross. The Salt Lake Tribune did a story on my thesis in May, and last week I presented at the Sunstone Symposium in Salt Lake City.

Edited August 24, 2009 by pam
solicitation

[Dravin]

Personally I have to say that crucifixes make me slightly uncomfortable (not just a cross though), though that depends on conspicuousness I suppose, my main experience was going to a Catholic Mass, needless to say the crucifix is front and center and very large. Personally I found it kinda gruesome/morbid, but I understand that's my own personal reasoning and it wasn't because I felt they were trying to disrespect Christ, quite the opposite.

To mention a little bit more about crosses, on my mission quite a few recent converts kept their crosses, either on their person or on the wall of their homes (one or two crucifixes as well) and I never felt a need, nor was instructed to tell them they needed to remove it. I think a lot of Mormons hear why we don't use the cross ourself on our buildings and kinda run with it to conclude its offensive.

As far as being given a cross, either to wear or to put up on the wall of my home I'm not sure what I'd do with it. I wouldn't be offended, quite the opposite but I'm not sure I'd want to wear it or put it up and that would probably end up hurting the feelings of whomever gave it to me. I recognize any resistance to doing so is my own vaguely quantified feelings on the subject and not a question of doctrine though.

I dunno, how would a non-LDS handle being given a picture of a temple to put up on their wall? I know its not quite equivalent, the cross as a symbol of Christ represents my faith as I believe in Christ while a Temple being representative of Christ in its own way in my mind wouldn't necessarily be that way for somebody else.

BTW, the snark in me wants to point out the perfect (okay, maybe perfect is stretching things a bit) comeback to the questions you received would be:

I dunno, if a librarian showed a friend of yours where to find a really great book would you put a statue of him up on your most holy houses of worship and make him an unofficial symbol of your faith?

[Hemidakota]

Whom do we worship, a living Savior or a dead Savior? This is the question we need to ask ourselves when we wear an object that reflects this statement. Who really cares what others or the world may say or do. Whether it is a culture theological icon, what matters are our beliefs or knowledge on how we worship our deity.

[Mike Reed]

Whom do we worship, a living Savior or a dead Savior? This is the question we need to ask ourselves when we wear an object that reflects this statement. Who really cares what others or the world may say or do. Whether it is a culture theological icon, what matters are our beliefs or knowledge on how we worship our deity.

This rationalization is problematic because it (however unintended it may be) carries the insulting implication that mainstream Christianity has somehow lost focus of the tenet that Jesus has been resurrected. Your explanation also fails to explain why other symbols of Jesus’ torture and death are acceptable in the LDS Church--such as those that are found in the Sacrament and temple endowment. And of course we know that many Mormons have spiritual/cathartic experiences while visiting Carthage jail, where the prophet was brutally shot and murdered. Does the popularity of this sacred site somehow eclipse LDS belief that Joseph Smith's ministry extends beyond the grave? No. Of course not. Other reasons must therefore account for the LDS opposition to the cross.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Mike Reed

[prisonchaplain]

Keep in mind too that most evangelicals use an empty cross, for the very purpose of demonstrating Christ's resurrection. Some Protestants have accused Catholics unfairly of "keeping Christ on the cross." Again, I find such criticisms to be inappropriate. Nevertheless, they do demonstrate that the empty cross is more a symbol of death-leading-to-life, then of a morbid fixation on Christ's suffering and execution.

[Misshalfway]

I think perhaps what we need to do is look beyond the symbol and into the heart of the person and the worhipping feelings they have. I actually believe that whether you wear a cross or not, the devotion is the same. Shouldn't we build on the commonalities between us rather than get stuck on something that perhaps isn't as important as some make it. I think this would go a long way in our ability to understand and appreciate one another inspite of our differences.

I had a Catholic friend give me some rosery beads once. I have no religious need for them. I see no power in them. But I appreciated the gesture as it came from the heart.

[Hemidakota]

This rationalization is problematic because it (however unintended it may be) carries the insulting implication that mainstream Christianity has somehow lost focus of the tenet that Jesus has been resurrected. Your explanation also fails to explain why other symbols of Jesus’ torture and death are acceptable in the LDS Church--such as those that are found in the Sacrament and temple endowment. And of course we know that many Mormons have spiritual/cathartic experiences while visiting Carthage jail, where the prophet was brutally shot and murdered. Does the popularity of this sacred site somehow eclipse LDS belief that Joseph Smith's ministry extends beyond the grave? No. Of course not. Other reasons must therefore account for the LDS opposition to the cross.

Mike...Mike....Mike....being a convert here, a former Catholic, I can attest it does goes beyond the grave. That is a difference. I simple have the faith in asking on specific topics and wait when I am mature enough to receive an answer. So I know what it means to worship idols and wear a symbol of a cross in my spiritual immaturity.

[Mike Reed]

Mike...Mike....Mike....being a convert here, a former Catholic

Cool. I grew up Mormon, have pioneer ancestors on both sides, and am even related to Joseph Smith through his grandfather Asael (I doubt these facts count as real credentials, however). Up until three years ago, I was also an LDS apologist (I've written for both FAIR and FARMS), and I have since completed my MA in a liberal arts program that focuses on religious Studies. As previously explained, I wrote my thesis on the topic of Mormons and the cross. The thesis has been praised as the most exhaustive study on this topic to date. Most (if not all) of those who have read my work would consider me to be the world's leading authority on this topic.

I can attest it does goes beyond the grave.

Joseph's ministry? Of course. My point is this: Since the sacredness of Carthage Jail does not necessary eclipse LDS understanding that Smith remains very much alive (and continues his ministry beyond the veil)... it stands to reason that the symbol of the cross does not necessarily eclipse the tenet that Jesus was resurrected. And again... if the symbol of the cross is rejected for its symbolic reference of Jesus' death, then why is death symbolism acceptable in the sacrament, endowment, or LDS scripture (as a literary symbol)?

That is a difference.

Please explain.

I simple have the faith in asking on specific topics and wait when I am mature enough to receive an answer.

You have the answer in my posts above. The reason for the LDS opposition to the cross is a season of past anti-catholic sentiment.

So I know what it means to worship idols and wear a symbol of a cross in my spiritual immaturity.

Please explain.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Mike Reed

[Hemidakota]

Being scholar and writing a paper is the point of credential of your argument? Mike, it is not the old roman symbol of hanging people along the highways is the issue; it whether it becomes an idol of worship is the problem. Being a former catholic gives credence to your statement of a anti-catholic sentiment? No! From a person who is firsthand account of idolizing such has more weight.

Seeing you were born into the covenant explains why for us converts, who lived the other religion, had the experience to tell it from our viewpoint.

There are topics [doctrines/principles/mysteries] in the church, which are not very clear to us. It does require personal research with studying the topic thoroughly as you already indicated, and then show a greater faith in asking the Godhead on a confirmation on what is true or false. A good case is Noah deluge….is true or false? We have seen many different answers in the church and outside of the church. It becomes now a point to seek a personal answer to determine what happen.

[Mike Reed]

Being scholar and writing a paper is the point of credential of your argument?

I'd say that it qualifies as a greater credential than being a convert from catholicism.

Mike, it is not the old roman symbol of hanging people along the highways is the issue; it whether it becomes an idol of worship is the problem.

You are very hard to follow. Could you please try to be more coherent in your posts? Nobody said anything about romans or highways. You initially claimed that Mormons don't use the cross because it is a symbol of death, but now you seem to assert instead that the issue is idolatry. I presume that this shift is due to your unwillingness (inability?) to answer the question in my previous post.

Being a former catholic gives credence to your statement of a anti-catholic sentiment? No!

Nope. I never made this claim. My conclusion (that the LDS cross aversion fundamentally had an anti-Catholic basis) is based on the historical data that I have gathered and analyzed.

From a person who is firsthand account of idolizing such has more weight.

So is it your opinion that Catholics would agree with your assessment that they idolize the cross?

Seeing you were born into the covenant explains why for us converts, who lived the other religion, had the experience to tell it from our viewpoint.

Ex-Mormon Ed Decker had a first hand perspective of what goes on in the temple? Should we therefore uncritically trust his claims as reliable?

There are topics [doctrines/principles/mysteries] in the church, which are not very clear to us. It does require personal research with studying the topic thoroughly as you already indicated, and then show a greater faith in asking the Godhead on a confirmation on what is true or false.

I find your "test" for truth to be unreliable. To illustrate my point... in 1916, Walter Ackroyd (a High Councilman of the Taylor Stake from Alberta Canada) explained that he turned to God in prayer, asking Him the meaning of the cross. The following is what he reported:

{I} was not sure of the true original meaning of the cross that lay behind, that the populace understands, so I asked our Heavenly Father for light. One night as I was reading and thinking on the matter it seemed that a voice spoke to my mind thus: “The cross is Lucifer’s symbol and means that there is no preexistence of spirits.”

Now contrast this meaning with the personal story of the struggle and revelation Spencer W. Kimball had in 1943, after being called to serve as an Apostle for the LDS Church. With great feelings of inadequacy, he turned to God in prayer. Kimball wrote a week after being called to the Quorum of the Twelve: “No peace had yet come, though I had prayed for it almost unceasingly these six days and nights. I had no plan or destination. I only knew I must get out in the open, apart, away,” he says. “I dressed quietly and without disturbing the family, I slipped out of the house. I turned toward the hills. I had no objective. I wanted only to be alone.” Kimball then describes the tearful hike he made up the hillside.

I climbed on and on. Never had I prayed before as I now prayed. What I wanted and felt I must have was an assurance that I was acceptable to the Lord. I told Him that I neither wanted nor was worthy of a vision or appearance of angels or any special manifestation. I wanted only the calm peaceful assurance that my offering was accepted. Never before had I been tortured as I was now being tortured. And the assurance did not come.

Finally, Spencer W. Kimball saw a sign that gave him assurance that God was with him:

As I rounded a promontory I saw immediately above me the peak of the mountain and on the peak a huge cross with its arms silhouetted against the blue sky beyond. It was just an ordinary cross made of two large heavy limbs of a tree, but in my frame of mind, and coming on it so unexpectedly, it seemed a sacred omen.

This experience made such an impact on him, that he revisited the place two years later (1945). Kimball recorded in his journal:

I began to re-live my unusual experiences…. I followed my footsteps of that early morning…. Finally at the top of my sacred mountain I found my cross of July '43 was broken. I found a cross beam and carried it up the hill (remembering the Savior as he carried his cross up Calvary) and fixed it the best I could.

Since you have so much faith in personal revelation... care to explain why God answered Kimball's prayer with "Lucifer's symbol"?

A good case is Noah deluge….is true or false? We have seen many different answers in the church and outside of the church. It becomes now a point to seek a personal answer to determine what happen.

As I said... I find your "test" for truth unreliable. See above. Edited August 24, 2009 by Mike Reed

[Kawazu]

Howdy,

The cross issue was also discussed recently in another thread; by chance, does anyone have that thread bookmarked--about reverence toward the cross?

[Mike Reed]

Howdy,

The cross issue was also discussed recently in another thread; by chance, does anyone have that thread bookmarked--about reverence toward the cross?

Here you go. Moksha posted this link in the opening page of this thread:

http://www.lds.net/forums/general-discussion/21040-disdaining-cross.html

The opening post gives a link to a Salt Lake Tribune story on my thesis, but the link is now defunct. You can read a transcript of the article here instead: WorldWide Religious News-Mormons and the cross

Best regards,

Mike Reed

[prisonchaplain]

Being scholar and writing a paper is the point of credential of your argument? Mike, it is not the old roman symbol of hanging people along the highways is the issue; it whether it becomes an idol of worship is the problem. Being a former catholic gives credence to your statement of a anti-catholic sentiment? No! From a person who is firsthand account of idolizing such has more weight.

Maybe I'm too simple, but I would suggest that both a former Catholic and someone who's done a Master's thesis on LDS theology in relation to the cross would have much to contribute to this string.

[Dravin]

Keep in mind too that most evangelicals use an empty cross, for the very purpose of demonstrating Christ's resurrection. Some Protestants have accused Catholics unfairly of "keeping Christ on the cross." Again, I find such criticisms to be inappropriate. Nevertheless, they do demonstrate that the empty cross is more a symbol of death-leading-to-life, then of a morbid fixation on Christ's suffering and execution.

Its interesting how much symbolism is in the eye of the beholder, if I was taught that a baloney sandwich represented either Christ or Lucifer I could probably find some way to support (in my own mind at least) either interpretation, particularly the latter if said sandwich had mayonnaise on it. Not trying to disparage anyones symbols with such a comment, but just pointing out that both sides could be right.

For some the cross is a symbol of a dead Christ, that is what it represents to them. But, and this is the important bit, but that same cross to a evangelical is representative of a living Christ, and to a degree both would be correct, that is what it is a symbol of for them. However accusing an evangelical of wearing a symbol of a dead Christ around their neck is a non-starter, because to the person wearing it that isn't what it is. It'd be like accusing an LDS of having a symbol of false scripture on their most holy houses of worship, to a member of the church that isn't what Moroni symbolizes though the one making the accusation certainly may see it that way.

Its the whole, ask people what they believe, not tell them what they believe issue. Much as we want to we aren't really in a place to dictate how others see their own religious symbols, though I suppose we are free to be confused by or not fully grok such.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Dravin

[beefche]

Beefche, if you wore the cross that you want to purchase, would your LDS friends question you about it? Would they dislike you wearing it?

Well, I wore a cross to church today. I went to an exhibit yesterday on King Tut. I just really, really liked the ankh and decided to buy a pendant.

http://www.rastaseed.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/silver_ankh_pendant.jpg

I had a couple of people ask me about it. When I told one of my friends that I liked it for the design and symbolism (eternal life), he said, "oh, you mean the symbolism of worshipping a false god, a pharoah and a people that practiced leftovers of a fallen priesthood?" I just laughed and said, "yep, that's the one!"

[pam]

You are such a rebel. Perhaps that's why I like you so much.

[beefche]

Actually, I wonder how much of our perceptions enter into our reality? I actually had to point out my necklace before anyone commented on it.

I guess I'm just of the personality that I really try to see the good in people and not assume the worst (even when it seems like they are only giving their worst). If someone is trying to offend me and it's obvious, that actually usually amuses me. So, when my friend said that, I just laughed. He may have been completely serious, but instead of annoying or offending me, I thought it was funny. (hmmm, now I wonder if he was serious and was trying to offend me and I just ticked him off by being amused by it....)

[Islander]

Well, I wore a cross to church today. I went to an exhibit yesterday on King Tut. I just really, really liked the ankh and decided to buy a pendant.

http://www.rastaseed.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/silver_ankh_pendant.jpg

I had a couple of people ask me about it. When I told one of my friends that I liked it for the design and symbolism (eternal life), he said, "oh, you mean the symbolism of worshipping a false god, a pharoah and a people that practiced leftovers of a fallen priesthood?" I just laughed and said, "yep, that's the one!"

Well, you can attribute (or not) meaning to just about anything you want. However, to ask the same of others seems naive. You are free to do as you please in terms of what you wear. But note that in our case it is counter-culture to wear a crucifix and you are bound to raise some eyebrows. If you don't care then carry on.

[beefche]

Well, you can attribute (or not) meaning to just about anything you want. However, to ask the same of others seems naive. You are free to do as you please in terms of what you wear. But note that in our case it is counter-culture to wear a crucifix and you are bound to raise some eyebrows. If you don't care then carry on.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. I'm LDS, active, temple recommend holding. A crucifix is a cross with Jesus hanging on it. A cross is simply a cross. An ankh is a type of cross (see my link for a pic of it) but doesn't have anything to do with Christianity.

I'm not expecting any other LDS person to wear a cross or ankh or anything. And I don't care if they think I'm a heathen for choosing to wear this ankh. If my bishop or stake president pulled me aside to discuss my wearing it and then asked me to remove it, then I would do so. But I would be very surprised if they did that.

I guess I'm confused by your phrase "ask the same of others seems naive." What am I asking others?

[Islander]

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. I'm LDS, active, temple recommend holding. A crucifix is a cross with Jesus hanging on it. A cross is simply a cross. An ankh is a type of cross (see my link for a pic of it) but doesn't have anything to do with Christianity.

I'm not expecting any other LDS person to wear a cross or ankh or anything. And I don't care if they think I'm a heathen for choosing to wear this ankh. If my bishop or stake president pulled me aside to discuss my wearing it and then asked me to remove it, then I would do so. But I would be very surprised if they did that.

I guess I'm confused by your phrase "ask the same of others seems naive." What am I asking others?

Well, what I mean is that others do not think it is a "simple" cross. Others do not believe hanging a pagan symbol on your neck is a trivial and irrelevant contrarian fashion statement. What you describe as simple and irrelevant is (or can be) interpreted by others as offensive. I have no value judgment in the matter but because your choice of decor is counter-culture you may have a few looks. If you do not care about the "looks" then feel free. That is all I'm saying.

[john doe]

I have various shirts with the Maltese Cross on them. I've worn them to numerous church activities and never had anyone express dismay at my decision to do so.

[Guest Utahrulzz]

People get all upset for no reason! I'm LDS and when I was 15 my non member girl friend gave me a cross necklace for my birthday. I still wear it to this day and it's a wonderful way to show my faith and devotion to Jesus Christ. If only the church members felt better about wearing the cross. Can you think of a better way to come out and let all of our Brothers and Sisters know we love our lord? I can't! When I was a missionary all of my companions talked about my cross. I wore it under my shirt of course so I didn't have the proper opportunity to show it to all of the wonderful people we visited each day. My companions saw it and realized it's not wrong to wear a cross. I had one crazy companion tell me it was like wearing a gun around your neck, which I always thought was silly since Jesus died on the cross for our sins, it's not like wearing a gun at all. After we discussed it, I encouraged him to pray about it and to pray about the Bible and Book of Mormon as well to help his testimony grow. After he read and prayed and fasted he came to see the cross and a very special and wonderful statement to show your devotion to Jesus. I wear my cross everyday and live in Utah. Most days people see it and they are very supportive!

[Hemidakota]

Well, I wore a cross to church today. I went to an exhibit yesterday on King Tut. I just really, really liked the ankh and decided to buy a pendant.

http://www.rastaseed.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/silver_ankh_pendant.jpg

I had a couple of people ask me about it. When I told one of my friends that I liked it for the design and symbolism (eternal life), he said, "oh, you mean the symbolism of worshipping a false god, a pharoah and a people that practiced leftovers of a fallen priesthood?" I just laughed and said, "yep, that's the one!"

Was it a bling version?