Temple Marriage

[Star11]

Currently, I am dating someone who is divorced but married in the temple. He is actually the only person I know who has been married in the temple but divorced. My question is how long does it take to be able to marry again in the temple, and do you remain sealed to your divorced partner?

Hope someone responds. Thanks! :)

[Hemidakota]

Was the divorced done by the church?

[Gwen]

there are some other threads on this subject. i suggest an advanced search maybe using the words 'sealing clearance' or 'sealing cancellation'.... can always talk to your bishop as well.

[Just_A_Guy]

The ordinance remains on the records of the Church until he receives a formal cancellation of sealings. However, sealings--like every other ordinance of the Gospel--are effective only according to the faith, obedience, and repentance of those who receive them.

IMHO, if your gentleman friend and his ex wife do not wish to be together in the eternities--they won't be; regardless of whether a formal cancellation ever came out of Salt Lake.

[jadams_4040]

The ordinance remains on the records of the Church until he receives a formal cancellation of sealings. However, sealings--like every other ordinance of the Gospel--are effective only according to the faith, obedience, and repentance of those who receive them.

IMHO, if your gentleman friend and his ex wife do not wish to be together in the eternities--they won't be; regardless of whether a formal cancellation ever came out of Salt Lake.

No doubt!:)

[Star11]

Thanks !

[foreverafter]

Star11,

Just make sure he is really justified to be divorced, meaning he didn't abandon a faithful wife. Otherwise he is still married, if his ex still wants the marriage to be intact. If he wasn't justified, than any dating or remarriage he does would be adultery & you don't want to be a party to that. The Prophets say that divorce can be justified only in the most rare of circumstances. So before someone gets into a relationship with a divorced man or woman, it's absolutely vital to do some checking & calling of his ex or her family, friends, etc., in order to be safe & wise. To just believe him or what his friends & supporters say, will only give you one side of the story. Everyone who dates is under obligation to get the whole story as best as we can, & then we are accountable to have the Spirit to discern truth from error. If we are deceived by the person, it's our own fault & sin. In every divorce, one or the other or both, was abusive in some way. You must make sure this man was truely innocent in the divorce & justified to be dating.

Edited September 11, 2009 by foreverafter

[Gwen]

i don't know that i would recommend calling all the friends and family i do recommend having very in depth talks about the first marriage and the reasons for the divorce. you are more likely to get hurt from unresolved issues from the first marriage than to have to worry about "adultery". most ppl do not figure out and fix their issues from a failed marriage and they bring those same issues and more from that relationship into the next. why second marriages have such a high failure rate. i would recomend premarital counseling to anyone entering into a second marriage (even more so if there are children from the first marriage). make sure you truely date long enough to really know the person.

[foreverafter]

i don't know that i would recommend calling all the friends and family i do recommend having very in depth talks about the first marriage and the reasons for the divorce.

The reason I stress doing all you can to find out what really happened during the 1st marriage is because if you date someone who is not justified to be divorced than you commit adultery with the person. That's pretty huge & worth doing all the checking you can to make sure you don't incur that kind of sin. Having a good time on a date is not worth selling your soul & throwing away your Exaltation. Unjustified Divorce is one of the very worst of sins & since the Prophets say only 'rare' couples are justified to divorce, than that means that probably most divorces are not justified & alot of people are just out committing adultery when they date or remarry.

As one seasoned Stake Partriarch said about a man who left his wife unjustifiably: "Even putting his name on one of those dating web sites, is Adultery."

When a spouse runs away from home, it is like when a child does, people cannot just take in the person without asking questions to make sure the runaway was justified & really needs safety. If the real problem lies with the runaway, as it usually does, than anyone taking in the runaway without seeking answers & permission would be doing something very wrong.

Abuse is a very serious thing & every divorce is caused by some form of abuse by one spouse or the other or both. Breaking marriage covenants in any way is Spouse Abuse. In every divorce someone does that unjustifiably & thus commits one of the blackest of sins. You do not want to marry an abusive person, so since divorce is a huge red flag that someone was abusive in that marriage, you must make sure it wasn't the person who wants to date you. Abusive people do not seem like it while dating. In fact, they usually seem more wonderful & loving than the average single person & easily fool most everyone. But even all this is secondary to making sure you don't commit Adultery with the person right off the bat, by just dating.

Also, to just have an indepth talk with the divorced person, will not usually reveal the whole truth. If they were to blame & were abusive & broke their covenants in the marriage, they most likely will be in denial & blind about it & claim innocence & paint the other spouse as the abusive one. These people are very convincing & most everyone falls for their rationalizations that they are innocent & so you must check it all out to make sure. Even the person having a temple recommend does not ensure innocence or clearance to date or remarry, people can & do unfortunately, far too often, even deceive their leaders, as well as theirselves & others.

Even the other spouse could lie to you too, so you really must have the Spirit to discern plus a real good knowledge of what abuse is, in all it's forms, (like Pres. Hinckley concurred we need), as well as understand the correct principles of marriage, to make sure you aren't deceived to commit sin with someone who claims innocence but isn't.

Edited September 11, 2009 by foreverafter

[beefche]

Just make sure he is really justified to be divorced, meaning he didn't abandon a faithful wife. Otherwise he is still married, if his ex still wants the marriage to be intact. If he wasn't justified, than any dating or remarriage he does would be adultery & you don't want to be a party to that.

foreverafter, until you are declared a Prophet by God Himself and sustained in General Conference, I am telling you you need to stop making these comments. You may believe this to be true, and that if fine. But to advise other people that to date a divorced person is adultery, you are declaring false doctrine. If the First Presidency allows people to receive divorces and temple cancellations and allows people who are divorced to receive temple sealings, anything you delcare otherwise is false. Plain and simple.

[Generally_Me]

Which seasoned stake patriarch said that? And was he talking about a married man or divorced? What was the reason, was it unjustifiable to God or to the patriarch? Where is the talk, so this can be taken in context?

Star11, if you have the goal to marry in the temple, I would think that you're covered. You are making covenants with God as well as spouse, and we are judged based on what we know, not what we don't. Plus if you both have a temple recommend for the action, it seems obvious to me that the church is OK with the marriage between you two.

[pam]

The reason I stress doing all you can to find out what really happened during the 1st marriage is because if you date someone who is not justified to be divorced than you commit adultery with the person.

I'm sorry..this is sooooooo wrong. If I were to date someone who is divorced, lawfully and legally by the laws of the land..I am NOT, repeat NOT committing adultery.

When a spouse runs away from home, it is like when a child does, people cannot just take in the person without asking questions to make sure the runaway was justified & really needs safety. If the real problem lies with the runaway, as it usually does, than anyone taking in the runaway without seeking answers & permission would be doing something very wrong.

To use this analogy (it's like a child) and say it is usually the runaway spouse that's the problem is a crock. You are making a blanket statement here and not basing anything on individual cases. Actually I would think it quite the opposite. I would think the person who is least at fault would be the runaway spouse. Plus who exactly are you saying they need permission from?

[Gwen]

i just started this thread, wanted to draw attention to it... also if folks think i've missed something, i know i have lol, then please add to it. http://www.lds.net/forums/advice-board/25622-resourses-links-your-marriage.html

[foreverafter]

foreverafter, until you are declared a Prophet by God Himself and sustained in General Conference, I am telling you you need to stop making these comments. You may believe this to be true, and that if fine. But to advise other people that to date a divorced person is adultery, you are declaring false doctrine. If the First Presidency allows people to receive divorces and temple cancellations and allows people who are divorced to receive temple sealings, anything you delcare otherwise is false. Plain and simple.

I'm sorry you dissagree, but this is not false doctrine it is what Christ & his Prophets have declared & that is that divorce is Adultery, unless it is justified.

"Whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery; and whoso shall marry her who is divorced committeth adultery."

3 Nephi 12:32

"The Savior is very emphatic in his answer to these Pharisees. If the law was true in the days of the Savior & his words are according to the law, then it seems to me that the law has not changed in the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. It is only through sin & transgression of the law that a separation can come that would divide father & mother & leave the children stranded & perhaps to be received into some other family by adoption, because parents have lost their faith & have turned away from the covenants they solemnly made before God & angels. How members of the Church can do such a thing appears to me as a mystery. It can be explained, of course. They do it because they have lost the spirit of the gospel. That divorce comes to them because they are not keeping the commandments that the Lord gave to them, because they have permitted darkness to enter into their souls.

I think I can say here safely & truthfully, that no judge in this world, in any court of the land, can annul a marriage for time & all eternity. He may sepatate the husband & wife by legal enactments so far as this world is concerned, but he cannot separate that husband & wife so far as the next world is concerned.

When a man & his wife lost their faith & go to the courts & get a separation & then go out & marry according to the laws of the land, they are not culpable (guilty) before the law of the land, but they are before the kingdom of God & what the Savior says here in this revelation is absolutely true:..."Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, & shall marry another, committeth adultery, and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."

(Matt. 19:9) Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith, CR Apr. 1961, 50.

"Only the parties to the marriage can determine this. They must bear the responsibilities for the train of consequences which inevitably follow if these covenants are not honored." Pres. Faurst, CR Apr. 1993.

"A divorce can be justified only in the most rare of circumstances, because it often tears people's lives apart & shears family happiness."

Pres. Benson, Pamphlet: "Father, Consider Your Ways".

A recommend or clearance is not a guarantee things will be valid. People can & do decieve their way into the temple, because they have convinced themselves they are innocent & worthy even though they aren't. When we go to get a recommend for the temple or remarriage, "we" are declaring ourselves worthy not our leaders declaring us worthy. We declare to our leaders if we are justified or not. If we are not truthful & not justified, than any remarriage in the temple would not be valid, because we did not give the leaders the whole truth. Church leaders have said that in the next life there will be alot of changing pertaining to temple sealings, because people were not truthful here on earth.

"It is not my decision, it is up to you to make the decisions. You have your free agency. If you are determined to get a divorce it is your responsibility & your suffering if you are not willing to make adjustments."

Pres. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p.270.

"Some folks have the mistaken notion that if somehow, by hook or crook, they can get into the House of the Lord & be married they are assured of Exaltation regardless of what they do."

Pres. Harold B. Lee, BYU Speeches of the Year, Provo, Jan. 5,1954.

"In the matter of divorce, they, by their unlawful additions & false interpretations, had condoned even the sin of adultery."

Talmage, Jesus the Christ.

Edited September 11, 2009 by foreverafter

[beefche]

Then please explain how divorced people get clearance from our current prophet to be sealed and married in our temples today.

Again, you may believe this and that is completely fine. But when you begin advising others that they are committing sin, you are now taking upon yourself grave responsibilities. You are in effect going against current prophet's actions and counsel.

[pam]

"It is not my decision, it is up to you to make the decisions. You have your free agency. If you are determined to get a divorce it is your responsibility & your suffering if you are not willing to make adjustments."

Pres. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p.270.

Did you not read the entire page of this? He was not talking in a generalized statement. He was talking about a person he had sitting in his office. He was talking about HER individual problem and situation.

To quote this and insinuate this applies to all situations is wrong.

I have this book open right in front of me and have read the entire context.

[foreverafter]

Plus who exactly are you saying they need permission from?

From the ex-wife/husband because, as Christ said, they are still married & not really divorced in the eyes of God, which is really what matters.

So if a man divorces his wife unjustifiably (& runs away from home) then his wife determines whether she still wants him or not in this life & in the next. Thus she decides if the marriage is still intact or if she wants to move on & find someone else & then she thus frees him for someone else to date.

[pam]

3 Ne 12:32 whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery

This passage is a confusing scripture for many. The word of the Lord seems to justify divorce only in the situation of infidelity. Furthermore, the scripture sounds like it is the divorce itself which makes an adulterer of the individual. But, in Mark, we learn that the adultery occurs when the divorced person is remarried (Mark 10:11-12). Yet, many good people, though married in the temple, have been remarried without being charged in Church courts with adultery. Certainly, we don’t consider those who have been divorced and remarried (for reasons other than infidelity) to be adulterers. So what is meant by this passage?

As Latter-day Saints, in the dispensation of the fullness of times, we enjoy the blessings of higher law as given by the Savior. We glory in the fact that the law has been given in its fullness. Yet, unbeknownst to many, we really aren’t living the law as it has been revealed. The most glaring example is that of the law of consecration and the United Order. The saints tried it, and failed. Few would be so bold as to claim that the saints of today are ready for this unselfish plan to be reinstituted. Yet, the mercy of the Lord grants us our weakness and we live the law “in spirit” only.

The same can be said of the law of celestial marriage. In the most perfect form of the higher law, divorce is not allowable except for cases of infidelity. But today, we are not living that law in its fullest, most perfect form. Again, the mercy of the Lord grants us our weakness and allows the divorce of individuals married in the temple because we as a Church are not ready to live the higher law. What the Lord said to the Pharisees about Moses’ day applies equally well to ours, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so (Matt 19:8). The Lord continues:

‘And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.

But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.’ (Matt 19:8-11)

“Jesus said that all could not ‘receive this saying’—the whole message of verses 4 through 9 [of Matt 19]—‘save they to whom it is given.’ (v. 11) Obviously, he was referring to a law of marriage higher than some of the social practices of that time…The reader can also see the Lord’s recognition of persons whose current societal circumstances are different from the celestial standard.

“Elder Bruce R. McConkie has commented,

‘Divorce is not part of the gospel plan no matter what kind of marriage is involved. But because men [and women] in practice do not always live in harmony with gospel standards, the Lord permits divorce [as in Moses’ time] for one reason or another, depending upon the spiritual stability of the people involved…

‘In this day divorces are permitted in accordance with civil statutes, and the divorced persons are permitted by the Church to marry again without the stain of immorality which under a higher system would attend such a course.’ (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 1:547)

“If our societies were on a higher plane, then, marriage covenants would be held in great, sacred trust; essentially, divorce would not exist or be considered except for truly serious reasons such as adultery. I would also suggest that in a higher system, with individuals living in harmony with all the Lord’s teachings, there would be no such serious problems and thus no divorce.

“Unfortunately, our societies are less than ideal. Some persons do live in unbearably difficult marital circumstances, suffering as victims of spouse abuse, substance abuse, promiscuity, and other evils that are sometimes addressed through divorce as a last resort. In such cases, the Lord in his mercy ‘permits his agents to exercise the power to loose [to authorize divorce] as well as the power to bind.’ (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 204)

[Maureen]

My question is how long does it take to be able to marry again in the temple, and do you remain sealed to your divorced partner?

Hi Star11, my understanding is that if the man is divorced and seeking to be sealed again, he would have to submit a sealing clearance. If the sealing clearance is granted (meaning he is permitted to be sealed) than he is able to be sealed again. As far as I understand the man remains sealed to his ex-wife, but a woman does not remain sealed to her ex-husband. Let me edit this by adding that a woman would have to submit a cancellation of sealing request before her sealing is cancelled. Edited September 11, 2009 by Maureen

[ryanh]

Pam and Beefche, don't get too hard on foreverafter. Reading between the lines of her posts, it is clear to me what happened, and how much she has been hurt by it. Yes, she needs to let go and move on, not make up justification to cling onto hope, but she's not there yet. That said, I agree, that declaring it as doctrine, not simply personal opinion, is misleading to those that don't otherwise understand the subject.

Foreverafter, my wife left 8 weeks ago, and is demanding a divorce over what *might* happen in the future. Yes, I could console myself that she must repent and come back to me, and that it was satan that whispered to her in the temple. It feels good doesn’t it? But it’s not the peace of the Holy Ghost. It is the consolation of the evil one. Giving into that self-righteous indignation is exactly what the adversary would want. He could then bind me there with those unrighteous thoughts of self-righteous indignation, keep me focused one idea of the gospel to the obscuring of all others (such as the fact that there IS AN ATONEMENT that will allow for rectifying of ALL the sins and ills of this life, including bad choices to leave a spouse, or that the sealing ordnance is a promise and ordnance, not the actual sealing), and effectively prevent me from seeking out a spouse with whom I can actually work together with to obtain a celestial marriage.

Don't you think it's time to start to let go, seek to live your life, and find a worthy mate for the eternities?

People get excommunicated for proclaiming false doctrine. Sharing an opinion is great. Contorting statements of, or misrepresenting what was said by general authorities is dangerous – to you and others.

[pam]

Ryan I understand your point. But until a statement is made that says this is my personal opinion based on my understanding..I have a right as a member of the Church, a member of this site, and as a moderator to make sure people understand that what is being said is not doctrine.

Providing advice to someone that is not in line with Church doctrine is extremely dangerous.

[foreverafter]

Don't you think it's time to start to let go, seek to live your life, and find a worthy mate for the eternities?

Keeping marriage covenants, even when the other spouse doesn't & having True Love, the kind that never ends or gives up, is never wrong or foolish or useless. It is what the Prophets teach us to do. The Adversary is the one who teaches us to not keep our covenants.

You seem to look forward to finding someone new, thus I can see why the things I believe in do not sound right to you.

[foreverafter]

3 Ne 12:32 whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery

This passage is a confusing scripture for many. The word of the Lord seems to justify divorce only in the situation of infidelity. Furthermore, the scripture sounds like it is the divorce itself which makes an adulterer of the individual. But, in Mark, we learn that the adultery occurs when the divorced person is remarried (Mark 10:11-12). Yet, many good people, though married in the temple, have been remarried without being charged in Church courts with adultery. Certainly, we don’t consider those who have been divorced and remarried (for reasons other than infidelity) to be adulterers. So what is meant by this passage?

As Latter-day Saints, in the dispensation of the fullness of times, we enjoy the blessings of higher law as given by the Savior. We glory in the fact that the law has been given in its fullness. Yet, unbeknownst to many, we really aren’t living the law as it has been revealed. The most glaring example is that of the law of consecration and the United Order. The saints tried it, and failed. Few would be so bold as to claim that the saints of today are ready for this unselfish plan to be reinstituted. Yet, the mercy of the Lord grants us our weakness and we live the law “in spirit” only.

The same can be said of the law of celestial marriage. In the most perfect form of the higher law, divorce is not allowable except for cases of infidelity. But today, we are not living that law in its fullest, most perfect form. Again, the mercy of the Lord grants us our weakness and allows the divorce of individuals married in the temple because we as a Church are not ready to live the higher law. What the Lord said to the Pharisees about Moses’ day applies equally well to ours, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so (Matt 19:8). The Lord continues:

‘And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.

But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.’ (Matt 19:8-11)

“Jesus said that all could not ‘receive this saying’—the whole message of verses 4 through 9 [of Matt 19]—‘save they to whom it is given.’ (v. 11) Obviously, he was referring to a law of marriage higher than some of the social practices of that time…The reader can also see the Lord’s recognition of persons whose current societal circumstances are different from the celestial standard.

“Elder Bruce R. McConkie has commented,

‘Divorce is not part of the gospel plan no matter what kind of marriage is involved. But because men [and women] in practice do not always live in harmony with gospel standards, the Lord permits divorce [as in Moses’ time] for one reason or another, depending upon the spiritual stability of the people involved…

‘In this day divorces are permitted in accordance with civil statutes, and the divorced persons are permitted by the Church to marry again without the stain of immorality which under a higher system would attend such a course.’ (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 1:547)

“If our societies were on a higher plane, then, marriage covenants would be held in great, sacred trust; essentially, divorce would not exist or be considered except for truly serious reasons such as adultery. I would also suggest that in a higher system, with individuals living in harmony with all the Lord’s teachings, there would be no such serious problems and thus no divorce.

“Unfortunately, our societies are less than ideal. Some persons do live in unbearably difficult marital circumstances, suffering as victims of spouse abuse, substance abuse, promiscuity, and other evils that are sometimes addressed through divorce as a last resort. In such cases, the Lord in his mercy ‘permits his agents to exercise the power to loose [to authorize divorce] as well as the power to bind.’ (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 204)

When an Apostle's opinion differs from what the Presidents of the Church teach, we are told to go with what the Presidents teach to be sure of current doctrine. Apostles cannot declare new doctrine, only Presidents can do that.

Edited September 11, 2009 by foreverafter

[beefche]

When an Apostle's opinion differs from what the Presidents of the Church teach, we are told to go with what the Presidents teach to be sure of current doctrine. Apostles cannot declare new doctrine, only Presidents can do that.

Exactly. And it is current Presidents who are allowing divorce and temple sealing cancellations in divorce issues and allowing others to be married and sealed in the temples who have been divorced.

[ryanh]

You seem to look forward to finding someone new, thus I can see why the things I believe in do not sound right to you.

Absolutely not, and I have not made enough posts for anyone to make that inference in soundness. This is the first time I have ever mentioned it on this forum. I have tried hard to reconcile with her, and that is what I believe would be best for both our sakes, but she won't have it. I can understand though why you would lash back like that. My post was not an easy one to read, I'm sure.

On the other hand, you have made numerous posts that make it very easy to see what happened in your situation. I understand how much you are hurting over all this, but what you are doing is not right. It is false healing. It is justification perpetuated by the one who would seek your destruction. You are falling prey to the very deceptions that you have warned others to watch out for!!!

I don't know if your husband has yet remarried and sought a cancellation of the sealing promise, but if he hasn't yet, it likely will happen. By clinging to false doctrine, and to your ex, you are not taking your opportunity in this life to work out your salvation, and ensure that you are part in the highest ordinance. That's not to be taken lightly. You really need to move on. And that is a position taken by the church in many words, and in deed.