questions

[PainterLily]

hey all, l said l have a busy schedule just logged on and l read a few threads but l gotta hurry up, l've got to head to work soon.

here are a few questions.

l had asked about the polygamy thing in another thread and from what l understand, it was commanded by God? but then stopped when it became against the law right?

but then in another thread l read today that was talking about Homosexual marriage, someone said that even if it is legalised, God's commandments are higher than law. if that's the case, then by that logic, polygamy should still be practiced. but it was stopped when it became illegal.

my question about why polygamy was practiced in the first place wasn't fully answered either. why was it put in place in the first place? even if it isn't practiced now, it was, so the Mormon religion cannot say it is a sin or morally wrong, but polygamy IS wrong, at least l think so...

Marriage is between a man and a woman, not women... >_>

my friend gave me a book of mormon and if l have time l'll try reading some of it, but this religion seems a little strange for me. l'll prolly just stick with being agnostic. that doesn't mean l'm no longer curious about your beliefs, l wanna understand her religion better.

[Hemidakota]

I was also curious when I read the Doctrine and Covenants [D&C] and had asked many questions on various topics. Later, I was quite surprise, that GOD does answers prayers. I would recommend in reading the book or perhaps the D&C in finding your own personal answers rather than ‘jumping ship.’

[For simplicity] If you look at the end of the D&C, you will find a manifesto explaining the details on why the church had to stop Polygamy for now. Unfortunate for us men, we seemed to fail in keeping the commandments more-so than women, leaving the invitation of more women who may inherit the highest order of the Celestial Kingdom. In order to inherit this level of Glory, one needs to be married [seal] to a man.

Also, the church has a 'Family Manifesto', which can be found at The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Keep searching....

[cougarfan]

I think it is confusing too...but yes it was commanded (D&C 132). Yes it was stopped because of the laws of the land (see manifesto). I think that since it is a higher law some people in the church kept practicing it in secret even after it was outlawed. Also, in church growing, up I was always told that it is practiced in the hereafter in the celestial kingdom (heaven). And when your first wife dies, I've been told you can marry another in the temple and be sealed so it is still practiced in that respect.

[autumnl]

the mormon church does not say polygamy is wrong- only illegal. and while God's law IS higher than government here, we are to obey the laws of the land in which we live. there is a difference in breaking a law (polygamy) and simply not taking advantage of one (gay marriage if made legal). drinking is legal, but we don't do it. no laws broken. but polygamy would be breaking law. i for one, like every mormon would not want polygamy, but who knows God's wishes? it was supported by Him off and on in biblical times. His law might change according to his people's needs in that time period- the only thing that never changes is we are expected to follow those laws. my grandma is agnostic too, but she told my mom to go to the temple when she dies and seal her to her first husband:)

[autumnl]

one more note- if you have a mormon friend, hopefully you know this law is not intended to discriminate against gay people. we have friends and family who are and love them no less and treat them no different. mormons are only trying to preserve what began as a religious binding agreement- marriage was not initially a "legal" thing. it was done before God and ordained a specific way (between a man and woman) yes there were times that later, it was man and womAn again, but who knows why? gays can be together, they can have civil unions with all the same rights. we do judge their actions as sins, but cannot judge the person, if that makes sense. it is not up to anyone on this planet to judge anyone else- only God knows our hearts perfectly. I hate it when christians say " you don't believe in Jesus, you go to hell" or whatever- doesn't that very judgement put them at fault? God loves us all- christian or not- He wants us all to have a chance to get back- he certainly won't sentence most of his children to eternal torment because they had different beliefs.

[Just_A_Guy]

The unauthorized practice of polygamy is wrong, as you'll see if you open your Book of Mormon to Jacob Chapter 2.

As for the rationale for ending polygamy--I'd suggest you look at the explanations appended to Official Declaration 1 (the document that ended the practice of polygamy within the United States).

[bytebear]

Polygamy is the exception to the rule. The rule of God is monogamy. But God has at times commanded some of it's leaders to practice plural marriage. This is very clearly spelled out in the Book of Mormon.

Jacob 2:27-30

27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;

28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

The church had a choice in 1890. They could choose to rescind the commandment of God, or they could lose the church altogether. The Lord gave the choice to the church, and the church chose to end polygamy.

[WmLee]

I think Autumnl nailed it!!

[Snow]

Yes it was stopped because of the laws of the land (see manifesto).

Not exactly.

It didn't just become illegal. It was illegal from the very beginning.

[deseretgov]

but polygamy IS wrong, at least l think so...

Marriage is between a man and a woman, not women... >_>

Why do you think Polygamy is wrong?

[ehkape]

Unfortunate for us men, we seemed to fail in keeping the commandments more-so than women, leaving the invitation of more women who may inherit the highest order of the Celestial Kingdom.

You don't really believe that was the reason Joseph introduced polygamy, do you?

Edited September 17, 2009 by ehkape

[Traveler]

hey all, l said l have a busy schedule just logged on and l read a few threads but l gotta hurry up, l've got to head to work soon.

here are a few questions.

l had asked about the polygamy thing in another thread and from what l understand, it was commanded by God? but then stopped when it became against the law right?

but then in another thread l read today that was talking about Homosexual marriage, someone said that even if it is legalised, God's commandments are higher than law. if that's the case, then by that logic, polygamy should still be practiced. but it was stopped when it became illegal.

my question about why polygamy was practiced in the first place wasn't fully answered either. why was it put in place in the first place? even if it isn't practiced now, it was, so the Mormon religion cannot say it is a sin or morally wrong, but polygamy IS wrong, at least l think so...

Marriage is between a man and a woman, not women... >_>

my friend gave me a book of mormon and if l have time l'll try reading some of it, but this religion seems a little strange for me. l'll prolly just stick with being agnostic. that doesn't mean l'm no longer curious about your beliefs, l wanna understand her religion better.

One of the biggest problems with the history of polygamy in the LDS church is that the majority of those members practicing polygamy were outside of the divine marriage covenant. Just as in today’s society many that enter into a marriage covenant do not respect that covenant and commit adultery for personal reasons. There were too many things that happened to families during the era of polygamy that should not have happened. Thus the whole of it has come under condemnation and there was no option but to end it.

Considering the state of society and the current disrespect of marriage and family – I do not see any possibility of a return to polygamy. Some have even suggested that because of the current disrespect of marriage that perhaps it would not be all that bad or different to bring polygamy back. What on this planet are they thinking?

The Traveler

[ehkape]

Jacob 2:27-30

27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;

28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

When or where did God command the church, to raise up seed unto him? Out of Josephs round about 30 marriages came not a single child as far as I am aware. (Other than Emma, his first wife) Quite the opposite is true for him. He even married women who were presently married to another husband. For example: Mary Rollins married Adam Lightner Aug 1835. By the time Joseph marries her in JAn 1842 she already has 2 children and is pregnant with the third. She never split up with Adam, but continued to live and have children with him. familysearch.org lists a total of 8 children - none of them are Josephs.

FamilySearch.org - Search

I don't believe polygamie was "commanded" to raise up seed to the Lord. Which brings us back to Jacob 2 "For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none"

Edited September 17, 2009 by ehkape

[Just_A_Guy]

Ehkape, I agree that the "raise up seed" thing is confusing when you look at the statistical number of children born to polygamous families. There were one or two women who claimed to have borne children by Joseph Smith, but so far none of the claims have been verified and your overall point stands.

One thing that I've seen pointed out, though--and I wish I had a link for this--was that polygamy was a bond that tended to hold the body of the Church together after Joseph's death. If Brigham Young goes west, and he happens to be married to one of my sisters, I'm a lot more likely to go west too.

Moreover, the Church's experiences with polygamy--both on the level of individuals trying to make their non-conventional families "work", and on the level of the institutional Church's dealings with the feds--was really a defining experience for the Church's identity. So while the "raise up seed" argument is statistically questionable, I think one could argue that God had other valid reasons for commanding polygamy.

At this point, is your argument that God can't command polygamy? Or just that He didn't in the particular case of the early LDS Church?

[bytebear]

When or where did God command the church, to raise up seed unto him? Out of Josephs round about 30 marriages came not a single child as far as I am aware. (Other than Emma, his first wife) Quite the opposite is true for him. He even married women who were presently married to another husband. For example: Mary Rollins married Adam Lightner Aug 1835. By the time Joseph marries her in JAn 1842 she already has 2 children and is pregnant with the third. She never split up with Adam, but continued to live and have children with him. familysearch.org lists a total of 8 children - none of them are Josephs.

FamilySearch.org - Search

I don't believe polygamie was "commanded" to raise up seed to the Lord. Which brings us back to Jacob 2 "For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none"

My personal belief is that Joseph Smith introduced the practice in a spiritual form before it took on a tangible form through Brigham Young. There is no proof that Smith has sex with any of his wives, and recently, some of the supposed children of Smith were proven not to be his. So, just as with many other aspects of God's plan, God sends a preparatory period prior to the full blessings of the principle.

[ehkape]

@ just a guy

Well, I'm not sure. There are some scriptures, that might lead to the conclusion that he can command it. Abraham and Hagar are often used as example:

1.Moses 16

1 Now Sarai Abram' wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. 2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. 3 And Sarai Abram' wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. 4 And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes. 5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee.

At a closer look, its not the Lord who commands it, but Sarai herself who makes the offer. Afterwards she feels bad about it and calls it "wrong". After Sarai has born Isaac, she wants to kick out Hagar.

1. Mose 21

9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. 10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac. 11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham' sight because of his son. 12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Now, did the Lord approve their relationship or not? I'm not sure. At least, he never really commanded it and counsels Abraham to send Hagar and Ismael away. But it didn't stand in the way of Abraham being the father of many nations and a mighty prophet at his time

So to the answer to whether he can or can not command polygamy: maybe...

To the question if he did command the early LDS church: nope, I have a hard time believing it - as did some of the early apostles and 1st presidency counselors. Joseph kind of did the same thing as king David did when he saw Bath-sheba bathing. He didn't send husbands into war, but some of them on proselyting missions. To me, thats the same pattern.

[deseretgov]

@ just a guy

Well, I'm not sure. There are some scriptures, that might lead to the conclusion that he can command it. Abraham and Hagar are often used as example:

At a closer look, its not the Lord who commands it, but Sarai herself who makes the offer. Afterwards she feels bad about it and calls it "wrong". After Sarai has born Isaac, she wants to kick out Hagar.

But did you see why she wanted to send her away? Hagar despised Sarai for not being able to bear children. So it's not that the relationship was wrong it's that those who participated in it did not fulfill their duties.

Now, did the Lord approve their relationship or not? I'm not sure. At least, he never really commanded it and counsels Abraham to send Hagar and Ismael away. But it didn't stand in the way of Abraham being the father of many nations and a mighty prophet at his time

So to the answer to whether he can or can not command polygamy: maybe...

To the question if he did command the early LDS church: nope, I have a hard time believing it - as did some of the early apostles and 1st presidency counselors. Joseph kind of did the same thing as king David did when he saw Bath-sheba bathing. He didn't send husbands into war, but some of them on proselyting missions. To me, thats the same pattern.

So if Joseph Smith said God commanded polygamy but was lying that would make him a....false prophet.

[Maya]

About marriage.... before the LDS Temples did not have the right to marry people legally around here. Then people ahd to first be married by a judge. Then they travelled to teh Temple. Swedish Temple has from the biginning as well as the Finnish one been able to marry people also leagally. This is a practice that can be taken back if needed and also it is a marriage that can be taken in to practice all over the world: first Judge then Temple.

Gays who have sexual relations with an other gay can not be menbers of the church, but they can be good people. Gays who are good LDS and live in selibat have a Templerecomend.

[Dravin]

Not exactly.

It didn't just become illegal. It was illegal from the very beginning.

I wasn't aware that it was against state code. Most often its portrayed as something that was made illegal after the migration west on a federal level. However looking it up it does appear to have been illegal at the time.

Cool (in the I learned something sense).

[jadams_4040]

hey all, l said l have a busy schedule just logged on and l read a few threads but l gotta hurry up, l've got to head to work soon.

here are a few questions.

l had asked about the polygamy thing in another thread and from what l understand, it was commanded by God? but then stopped when it became against the law right?

but then in another thread l read today that was talking about Homosexual marriage, someone said that even if it is legalised, God's commandments are higher than law. if that's the case, then by that logic, polygamy should still be practiced. but it was stopped when it became illegal.

my question about why polygamy was practiced in the first place wasn't fully answered either. why was it put in place in the first place? even if it isn't practiced now, it was, so the Mormon religion cannot say it is a sin or morally wrong, but polygamy IS wrong, at least l think so...

Marriage is between a man and a woman, not women... >_>

my friend gave me a book of mormon and if l have time l'll try reading some of it, but this religion seems a little strange for me. l'll prolly just stick with being agnostic. that doesn't mean l'm no longer curious about your beliefs, l wanna understand her religion better.

If one reads the bible such things wre commanded by the lord anciently ; not excatly polygamy but other things very similar; {concubines e;t;c} Yes it {polygamy} was commanded initially for a number of reasons that were very legitamate. not sex. but celestial marriage; over time i think members took advantage of the initiall commandment, it got out of hand; but yes you can be assured it was initially commanded.:)

[Snow]

My personal belief is that Joseph Smith introduced the practice in a spiritual form before it took on a tangible form through Brigham Young. There is no proof that Smith has sex with any of his wives, and recently, some of the supposed children of Smith were proven not to be his. So, just as with many other aspects of God's plan, God sends a preparatory period prior to the full blessings of the principle.

Well - not so.

The Church took pains to find proof that Joseph Smith was sexually active with his or some of his plural wives (13 of them), in response to the Reorganized church's claims that Joseph Smith was not really polygamously married in the full sense. Richard Bushman documents it in Joseph Smith, Rough Stone Rolling, and I've heard him address it in a JS symposium organized by the Church.

Todd Compton also addresses it in In Sacred Loneliness.

[Snow]

I wasn't aware that it was against state code. Most often its portrayed as something that was made illegal after the migration west on a federal level. However looking it up it does appear to have been illegal at the time.

Cool (in the I learned something sense).

It's not a pleasant fact - given that our Articles of Faith speaks to obeying the law but knowing accurately what happened is, on balance, a benefit to us.

[bytebear]

Well - not so.

The Church took pains to find proof that Joseph Smith was sexually active with his or some of his plural wives (13 of them), in response to the Reorganized church's claims that Joseph Smith was not really polygamously married in the full sense. Richard Bushman documents it in Joseph Smith, Rough Stone Rolling, and I've heard him address it in a JS symposium organized by the Church.

Todd Compton also addresses it in In Sacred Loneliness.

You are correct that the church fought long and hard to legitimize Young's practice with Smith's teachings. But I have yet to see any definitive proof. And the efforts of 19th century church leaders have done nothing but muddy the waters. The only evidence are affidavits from women in the church at the prodding of Young long after the death of Smith. I simply do not believe them to be truthful. And DNA testing so far, has vindicated my position.

[bytebear]

Not exactly.

It didn't just become illegal. It was illegal from the very beginning.

Not quite. Utah was part of the Mexican territory when the Mormons settled in 1847. The US had no jurisdiction over Utah until 1850, and even then it was simply a territory with Young as governor, so he called the shots. National anti-bigamy laws against the Mormons weren't enacted until 1862 (Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act) and then it was simply a legal battle until 1890 when it was finally denounced by the church.

[Snow]

You are correct that the church fought long and hard to legitimize Young's practice with Smith's teachings. But I have yet to see any definitive proof. And the efforts of 19th century church leaders have done nothing but muddy the waters. The only evidence are affidavits from women in the church at the prodding of Young long after the death of Smith. I simply do not believe them to be truthful. And DNA testing so far, has vindicated my position.

Actually the only that DNA testing can do is show whether or not Smith had offspring. It can do nothing at all to show whether or not he was sexually active. As it is, complete DNA testing has only been performed on a few possible offspring - there is nothing definitive.

You may be think that Joseph Smith wives were liars but The Church of Jesus Christ didn't (having solicited and collected and promoted the wives testimonies), nor does the world's best historical authority on Joseph Smith (and other scholarly authorities and I doubt you have any evidence to support your belief - other than you don't want it to be true.

As for your contention that the wives of Joseph Smith were liars - perhaps you should recall that Joseph Smith thought highly enough them that he chose them to wed as part of the new and everlasting covenant, that doesn't make them unable to lie, but we don't have one, or two, or three random accounts - we have 13 such accounts from Joseph Smith's chosen wives, sealed to him.

What could possibly bother you about Joseph Smith having sex with his wives? That's what married people do.