Elder Jeffrey Holland--PM session Sunday

[Justice]

This is 100% true. There was no "Lamb to the Slaughter"

The death occured based on a lawless mob reacting to the lawless action of Joseph by ordering the destruction of "The Expositor" that was about to expose Joseph's polygamy.

He was free. All he had to do was travel the other direction, which he was doing. He didn't have to volunteer for capture.

And in regards to destroying a printing press, it's possible it was a bad move. However, I know it was in response to years and years of having their property stolen and destroyer, and their people killed because they believed differently. And, it's not like they didn't have one of their printing offices destroyed first. I know action shouldn't reciprocate action, but we should throw the flag on those who do it first, not on the responders. This is what they do in the NFL, and it works rather well.

It's all in who's side you want to believe.

[rameumptom]

This is 100% true. There was no "Lamb to the Slaughter"

The death occured based on a lawless mob reacting to the lawless action of Joseph by ordering the destruction of "The Expositor" that was about to expose Joseph's polygamy.

Nice way to twist history.

The Nauvoo charter, approved by the state of Illinois, allowed such actions, such as destroying public nuisances, by decision of the city council of Nauvoo. The action was lawful. Whether it was a smart decision or not, is another matter entirely.

Joseph had a pistol, lent him by another, for protection. Given he was up against 200 in a mob, that pistol could at best just scare them off or deflect the attack away from his friends and onto himself (which it did).

Just how does one pistol against a mob of hundreds really keep this from being a slaughter? There's nothing anywhere that requires a lamb cannot put up a struggle before it is slaughtered. Nor is there a requirement that a martyr cannot defend his life.

[Hemidakota]

The tender hearts I was referring too are those like the wife's and mothers of the wicked husbands and fathers Alma was talking too. In a way it hurts the faithful to hear harsh words to the ones they love knowing full well it's to their damnation.

Marty

Got it....thanks.

[Dirk]

I want to add my support for Elder Holland. I think it’s been proven over and over that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. This is how I view it as a Mormon, no man has told me so and no man will tell me otherwise! I am proud of the men that stand at the helm of the LDS church, men of integrity and good sober moral standards, I wasn’t their when the Prophet Joseph was martyred or when the press was destroyed and must base all my assumptions about the prophet Joseph on all the material I have read about him, good and bad. By now I think if there was any concrete proof that The Book OF Mormon was false, the anti-Mormons would have ridden that wave over and over and this religion would not be here today. I was thought in the church that we respect all people irrespective of their shortcomings. No need to try and proof them wrong or right, every man and woman has the right to make their own choices:)

[Hemidakota]

Exactly...

[john doe]

THis a discussion thread of Elder Holland's talk. If you wish to talk about whether Joseph Smith was murdered then please start another thread.

[ttribe]

This is exactly the same story I've read (though "faith promoting" histories tell it rather differently). The Smith brothers together with other leading Mormons were arrested for interfering with the freedom of the press (to wit an anti-Mormon newspaper) and held under house arrest in Carthage. Learning that an angry crowd was on its way, Smith's supporters smuggled guns into the house so that when the mob arrived it met with stiffer resistance than expected. A number of people were killed on both sides.

I'm not saying Smith wasn't a martyr, but it was more a case of "Heroic Last Stand" than "Lamb to the Slaughter".

According to some sources Joseph Smith was shot while trying to escape via the roof, and his last words were "Who will help a poor son of the widow?" (The traditional Masonic distress call.) I suspect this is probably an anti-Mormon slur.

Setting the record straight (again): FAIR Topical Guide: Martyrdom of Joseph & Hyrum

[Justice]

Speaking of Elder Holland's talk... he mentioned that he affirmed the testimony held by his grandfather. I used to know who that was, but have forgotten. Who was his grandfather?

[Jamie123]

Setting the record straight (again): FAIR Topical Guide: Martyrdom of Joseph & Hyrum

Thanks - there's some very useful and interesting material there.

However, I don't think any of this contradicts my short summary. The argument here is not so much about the facts as about the spin you put on them. It is quite possible for Joseph and Hyrum Smith to have fought back against their attackers and still be considered martyrs.

[rameumptom]

Speaking of Elder Holland's talk... he mentioned that he affirmed the testimony held by his grandfather. I used to know who that was, but have forgotten. Who was his grandfather?

President George Q. Cannon

[RipplecutBuddha]

This talk had the same effect on me as a talk he gave at a young adults fireside back in...92-93 I think, titled Come Unto Christ. When I heard that talk, the spirit was with me more than ever before, and I have tried to not forget it. maybe someone can find the audio for that talk. I'd love to get the MP3 for it.

[Justice]

President George Q. Cannon

Awesome! Thank you. He is in my current Priesthood line of authority.

I shoulda remembered that!

[goofball]

This talk had the same effect on me as a talk he gave at a young adults fireside back in...92-93 I think, titled Come Unto Christ. When I heard that talk, the spirit was with me more than ever before, and I have tried to not forget it. maybe someone can find the audio for that talk. I'd love to get the MP3 for it.

The talk I know is called Come Unto Me and it was given by Elder Holland in 97. Come Unto Me - Jeffrey R. Holland is where the talk is and you can often find links to the audio. I remember that talk in 97 very well as it had the same affect on me as i was there

[RipplecutBuddha]

Yep that's the one. Thanks.

Now to get the audio on my mp3 player....

[ttribe]

Thanks - there's some very useful and interesting material there.

However, I don't think any of this contradicts my short summary. The argument here is not so much about the facts as about the spin you put on them. It is quite possible for Joseph and Hyrum Smith to have fought back against their attackers and still be considered martyrs.

I agree with your final sentence there...not everyone does...but I certainly do.

[Hemidakota]

Here is the link those who wish to read it - Safety for the Soul

[martybess]

Yep that's the one. Thanks.

Now to get the audio on my mp3 player....

Here's the link to the audio. Just right click and "save as" to download. :)

http://speeches.byu.edu/freefiles/provider2/type2/Holland97.mp3

-marty

[pam]

Within a couple of hours they had it on lds.org. It was not edited.

[Heather]

I've added the video of Elder Holland's talk to the home page of LDS.net and then linked it back to this thread.

Great video done by Seth Adam Smith using clips from this talk - YouTube - Joseph Smith & the Book of Mormon - An Apostle's Testimony

YouTube - Jeffrey R Holland Book of Mormon Conference Talk Playlist.

[pam]

Oh can't wait to watch it. Seth does amazing work. I love his videos.

[pam]

Oh my gosh. That was amazing.

[WmLee]

One of the most moving testimonies I have ever heard from the pulpit durinf conference. I wanted to shout out, "Yes!!!" a number of times. What a prophet, what a leader.

[martybess]

I cried and still do every time I see it. I need to download it and save it. It's a real shot in the arm when feeling overwhelmed or discouraged.

[jhud]

hello:)

thanks for the warm welcome!

[SuperAlbeee]

I'm a new member since July 2009 and still reading through the Book of Mormon.

I was a very strong Buddhist before I became interested in the church. I loved my religion and I felt like a very happy individual.

But when LOTS of very strong coincidence occurred in my life, it made me see that God was trying to get my attention.

When I gave in and decided to investigate, the first few times I read the BoM.... I felt something in my heart. I didn't investigate with intending on converting. I read to educate myself on mormons.

After several weeks of reading the BoM and having lessons. I returned to my buddhist readings... and I didn't feel the same. There was an emptiness there.

I now know I couldn't feel the spirit reading buddhist things, but I felt it when I read the BoM.

That was one of the ways I know the BoM is true.

As much as I resisted converting.... I remember telling my my boyfriend (who is LDS) after about a month of keeping it a secret, that I was going to convert.

I said to him "I'm thinking about converting, because when I read the BoM.... I think (and I almost cried when I said it), how could a young man who was not an academic, or a scholar write such things?... these things are not made up I'm sure about it. And I can't ignore the fact I really feel something when I read it....how can it not be true?"

I still feel emotional when I recall saying that to him. And recalling it, strengthens my testimony. The BoM is true. They are God's words.