lattelady Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 There were four principles in the speech that the poster was asking about, not just two. I didn't think he/she was making a mountain out of a molehill--simply asking a question. That's what the forum is for, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Well...everyone sounds logical enough, but at least I was considered Christian enough to get this cush job as a moderator. :-) I hate to quote myself, but I thought this answered the question rather well, and was kinda funny to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lattelady Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Prisonchaplain, You had a thread recently about our baptisms--how they set different faiths apart, didn't you? I think that is part of what the OP was referring to. (not your thread, but the idea it broached). He doesn't believe in baptism for the remission of sins. Does this mean he wouldn't be considered a Christian by LDS standards...that was the question he was asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Does this mean that you don't take the answers of someone who is LDS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Prisonchaplain,You had a thread recently about our baptisms--how they set different faiths apart, didn't you? I think that is part of what the OP was referring to. (not your thread, but the idea it broached). He doesn't believe in baptism for the remission of sins. Does this mean he wouldn't be considered a Christian by LDS standards...that was the question he was asking. I think the answer for him is the same as for me--he might well be an outstanding Christian--just not an LDS member. To give another example, TRAVELER, in the thread about tongues, expressed that the pentecostal understanding of the gift of the Holy Spirit was wholly different from his own. Ergo, Traveler may be a stellar LDS member, but would not qualify for membership in my church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rider Posted October 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 I believe that baptism is required to enter the highest kingdom of glory. I don't believe that it is required to be a Christian.Do you agree with Wirthlin's definition? "Thus two characteristics identify Christians: (1) they profess belief in a Savior, and (2) they act in harmony with the Savior’s teachings." Does someone have to do those to be a Christian? If not, what is required to be a Christian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Aside from our (LDS) beliefs.........as the scriptures say, "by there fruits ye will know them." LDS, Catholic or Protestant.......being a Christian has a whole lot to do with.....being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john doe Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 There were four principles in the speech that the poster was asking about, not just two. I didn't think he/she was making a mountain out of a molehill--simply asking a question. That's what the forum is for, right?BZZZZZTT!!!!!! Wrong. He is asking if he can be a Christian by our standards. Elder Wirthlin put down his two standards for that. The Principles and ordinances of the gospel are things that we as LDS cling to, but we don't require others to abide by them if they wish to call themselves Christian. I don't know why you two seem to be skipping over the parts that have been quoted that show this point quite clearly. I have a hard time believing that you two could be this dense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Do you agree with Wirthlin's definition? "Thus two characteristics identify Christians: (1) they profess belief in a Savior, and (2) they act in harmony with the Savior’s teachings." Does someone have to do those to be a Christian? If not, what is required to be a Christian?Answering for myself: Yes, and yes. But, when we get down to "act[ing] in harmony with the Savior's teachings", there's going to be some confusion because not everyone agrees as to what the Savior's teachings actually were. When it comes to assigning labels, Mormons tend to give people the benefit of the doubt--if someone calls themself a "Christian", we won't quibble. We won't necessarily accept your doctrine; but we won't cast aspersions on where your allegiance lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 I am not one to define devout for others in any religion. But I will put forward what it means to me to be a Christian. Jesus called those that followed him disciples and they called him master. This relationship is what being a Christian means to me. Jesus Christ is the master and I am the disciple learning the teachings and the ways of the master. The word disciple has the same root meaning as discipline. I believe a Christian is an apprentice being taught by the master.So, grasshopper, the way of a Christian is not a destination but a journey. A journey that begins as the master began his journey. We know from historical evidence that at the time of Jesus there were many that were baptizing in the area where Jesus lived but the master traveled a great distance (more than and day’s journey) to find a particular individual that was baptizing under authority from G-d. The master sought out the one – above all others for his baptism.It is curious to me that someone would want to call themselves a Christian and say that they follow Christ and then the very first thing they do is stray from the course that the master has shown. Even to the point of saying that they do not believe in such a thing. I think there is a bit of a disconnect with the reality of what a disciple is. For me I will follow the Christ in the same journey and I am not shy to state that the LDS are the only place that I have found where John the Baptist – the same that baptized Jesus has restored that same authority given to him so he could baptize the Master. Every recognized baptism among the LDS has a direct line to that same authority. And so it is that I know that from the beginning of my covenant of baptism that I am a disciple following in the footsteps of my master.The Traveler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Amen Traveler. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rider Posted October 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Answering for myself: Yes, and yes. But, when we get down to "act[ing] in harmony with the Savior's teachings", there's going to be some confusion because not everyone agrees as to what the Savior's teachings actually were.Why does the existence of disagreements matter so much? Many people disagree about whether or not God exists at all, but we don't change the definitions of our belief because of that. Just because two people disagree about Christ's teachings doesn't change the fact that they can't both be right. At least one of us is not acting in harmony with the Savior's teachings. If you are in harmony, then I wouldn't be. Is there something wrong with acknowledging that?BZZZZZTT!!!!!! Wrong. He is asking if he can be a Christian by our standards. Elder Wirthlin put down his two standards for that. The Principles and ordinances of the gospel are things that we as LDS cling to, but we don't require others to abide by them if they wish to call themselves Christian. I don't know why you two seem to be skipping over the parts that have been quoted that show this point quite clearly. I have a hard time believing that you two could be this dense.Right, Wirthlin did list two standards, but then he listed the four principles of the gospels as part of those two standards. For instance, he said baptism for the remission of sins is part of acting in harmony with the Savior's teachings. Do you agree with that? If not, then what are the Savior's teachings and how do we act in harmony with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john doe Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Right, Wirthlin did list two standards, but then he listed the four principles of the gospels as part of those two standards. For instance, he said baptism for the remission of sins is part of acting in harmony with the Savior's teachings. Do you agree with that? If not, then what are the Savior's teachings and how do we act in harmony with them?Yes. It is in one of our Articles of Faith. But that doesn't mean we will insist that you stop calling yourself a Christian if you choose not to abide by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dove Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 This is to the OP, Wow, what a sensitive subject for everyone involved......Most every other "christian" religion over and over again accuse the mormons of not being christian. I think it's ironic that you would bring up this talk, and frame it so that all of the LDS responders feel on the defensive about our beliefs, and not wanting to offend you as a non-lds person....Your tone strikes me as rather baiting, and looking to pick a fight..... First of all, as a person of LDS membership, I am not here to tell anyone who they are or what they believe.....that's up to their own self-honesty and reconciliation with their creator.....It's not mine to intervene or butt in and tell them all about themselves. Having been on the receiving end of the bitterness of non mormons towards me as a mormon, that seems highly presumptive. Secondly, do you believe in the Bible? If so, I believe the New Testament is replete with the example of the Saviour being baptized and with Him (the Saviour) bestowing the Gift of the Holy Ghost upon His baptized followers......To take your bait, yes, according to Joseph Wirthlin's talk, and our doctrine, to truly be a "christian" requires one to follow the Saviour into the waters of baptism and to be given the gift of the Holy Ghost. According to LDS doctrine as I understand it, being baptized is making a covenant with God to keep His commandments, to obey Him, to take the Saviour's name upon us, and to always remember Him. Of course this would mean to live one's life in accordance to His teachings. It makes sense to me that baptism would need to be done by one actually called upon by God to do so; hence the need for the priesthood authority. Maybe this does mean you are not a "true christian" according to the LDS definition...... Does this mean you have to agree?! I don't think so....neither does it mean that you can't call yourself a christian. Most mainstream christian religions have certainly taken it upon themselves to call the LDS people anything but christian. Does that mean we're not? I don't think so. I think it's up to you to decide who you are and what you choose to follow. I'm not going to presume to tell you what that is...... One thing I am happy to say about my religion is how heavily we do rely on the promptins of the Spirit to guide us to truth. I would invite you to go to God for yourself to understand if what we claim is true. If not, isn't that our problem/riddle to solve, not yours? If it is true, and this is truly the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints....If you would profess to truly follow Jesus Christ, wouldn't this be something to sobrely consider? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 wow, what a sensitive subject for everyone involved......most every other "christian" religion over and over again accuse the mormons of not being christian. I think it's ironic that you would bring up this talk, and frame it so that all of the lds responders feel on the defensive about our beliefs, and not wanting to offend you as a non-lds person....your tone strikes me as rather baiting, and looking to pick a fight..... bingo!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 If you are in harmony, then I wouldn't be. Is there something wrong with acknowledging that?Umm . . . Mormonism does acknowledge that. Rather stridently, in point of fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rider Posted October 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Yes. It is in one of our Articles of Faith. But that doesn't mean we will insist that you stop calling yourself a Christian if you choose not to abide by it.How many times have you heard or read something claiming Mormons aren't Christians? Out of those, how many insist Mormons stop calling themselves Christians? I haven't read any that do so.When you say you believe the LDS church is the only church with full gospel, are you insisting I leave my church and join yours?First of all, as a person of LDS membership, I am not here to tell anyone who they are or what they believe.....that's up to their own self-honesty and reconciliation with their creator.....It's not mine to intervene or butt in and tell them all about themselves. Having been on the receiving end of the bitterness of non mormons towards me as a mormon, that seems highly presumptive.What about atheists, agnostics, muslims, buddhists, hindus, etc.? Do you butt in and tell them about what you believe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Rider..what is your purpose here? What are you trying to get out of coming to lds.net? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxel Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 How many times have you heard or read something claiming Mormons aren't Christians? Out of those, how many insist Mormons stop calling themselves Christians? I haven't read any that do so.When you say you believe the LDS church is the only church with full gospel, are you insisting I leave my church and join yours?I can't answer for john doe, but the simple matter is: yes. Your eternal progression will be forever damned if you never accept the Gospel of Christ in its fullness- which includes baptism by proper Priesthood authority and receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost through the laying on of hands.That is, of course, assuming that Mormonism is, in fact, correct.What about atheists, agnostics, muslims, buddhists, hindus, etc.? Do you butt in and tell them about what you believe?I can't answer for Dove, but I believe Christ was serious when He charged His people to preach His Gospel to all the world. Most Christian churches believe He was serious about that.So I do butt in, as time and occassion and tact permit, to testify of Christ. I do intrude upon others' belief systems to lovingly share my own belief- because I've received witnesses of its truth. I also allow others to share what they believe with me, beacause I find the experience edifying, and I can look for places where we both agree about God and the nature of things.Rider, I get the feeling that you want us to say that we believe nobody else can be a real Christian. To be truthful, you come across as a cunning deceiver who is trying to trip us up in our own words. The Bible condemns such practices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dove Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 How many times have you heard or read something claiming Mormons aren't Christians? Out of those, how many insist Mormons stop calling themselves Christians? I haven't read any that do so.When you say you believe the LDS church is the only church with full gospel, are you insisting I leave my church and join yours?What about atheists, agnostics, muslims, buddhists, hindus, etc.? Do you butt in and tell them about what you believe? I am not ashamed about what I believe, or about talking about it generally as I express my experience in life....What I don't do is expect/demand someone to believe the way I do, neither do I demand or cajole them to listen to me......If they are interested in finding out more about my beliefs/religion, I am more than happy to share. This is upon their invitation. Yes, I do explain my beliefs to my friends of other faiths. But I never coerce them into believing in my way or go into depth without their invitation.....None of us are insisting you leave your church to join ours. That would be expressly against our teachings. If one knows much of anything about our beliefs, he/she would know our teachings on agency. That it is not ours to force anyone to Heaven/God.Rider, your posts are becoming increasingly angry/inflammatory as this thread goes on. If you have such a grievance against our beliefs, what are you doing on this forum? Why come here and antogonize/attack us for what we believe? You have about as much tact as if I were to go to Rome and criticize the catholics. How rude!You know, you could always start your own forum based on your religious beliefs.....why not? Are you more interested in the tearing down of other people for their beliefs than you are in building them up by sharing what you have found to be true in your life's experience?It's pretty funny how much hatred and antagonism I've witnessed from those who do call themselves christian. I'm just curious if you feel you have followed one of the greatest commandments given by the Saviour in the New Testament throughout this thread. "Love thy neighbour as thyself..." I certainly haven't seen you do so.People's anger towards mormons on a mormon forum quickly becomes tiring to me. Why not do your own thing if you think we're so wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lattelady Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 (edited) I just wanted to say that I think I understand. I think that the word Christian might be a semantics issue at this point (at least in my mind). I hear you saying (many of the LDS posters) that there are many good Christian people in the world that aren't necessarily LDS. That clears up for ME the issue that being "Christian"--from a Mormon perspective-- may be more about believing in Jesus and living a moral, upright life--loving your neighbor, etc.; are you saying(PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong)that LDS members are Christians and that there are other Christians outside of the LDS church, but they are not considered LDS until some other covenants are made (like baptism and laying on of hands for receiving the Holy Ghost)? The semantics for me is that the term Christian refers (in my belief system) to one who has put their faith in what Christ did for them on the cross as payment for their sin, and is trusting in that ALONE for salvation (not in any works that we can do); in light of that faith, they choose to live a life that is pleasing to God. So, while there may be many good people doing many good things and they may even believe IN Jesus, they still may not be a Christian unless they've put their trust in His work for them, His death on a cross. I'm not here trying to belittle your faith, or mock you or demean you in any way. I appreciate the fact that you let me on this forum; it is an LDS forum. I am your guest, and I hope to be respectful and kind. If I've ever been anything other than that, it's not been my intention. Thanks for allowing me to be on here, to learn and share. Edited October 16, 2009 by lattelady Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juxtaposed Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 sounds to me that either rider is attempting to disqualify lds as mormons by having the 'exclusions' to being a christian that he thinks wirthlin is claiming. seems like a whole lot of splitting hairs and semantics really. i wouldn't call someone less mormon, baptist, christian, or jew, just because they act and believe a certain way that may not be in concordance with a preconceived notion, either spoken or written. honestly what is the point of the op? a christian is anyone who proclaims to be such...or am i wrong? obviously wirthlins writings don't mean anything to many non-mormon christians. this being the case, why would it bother you what his opinion is about what a true christian really is. the way in which they practice has no bearing on any definition of a christian or how i treat their personal beliefs. this is why i hate hearing that i am not christian when i have the belief system that i do. and furthermore, why would any lds person apologize for believing that god has indeed spoken to us in our day and has revealed what is necessary to be saved according to the true gospel of jesus christ. so if you HAVE to question what we think it takes to be a christian because of an article that you immediately question the legitimacy thereof, it seems that you have not only another agenda, but are questioning for argument sake. at least that's how it comes across to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rider Posted October 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Rider, your posts are becoming increasingly angry/inflammatory as this thread goes on. If you have such a grievance against our beliefs, what are you doing on this forum? Why come here and antogonize/attack us for what we believe? You have about as much tact as if I were to go to Rome and criticize the catholics. How rude!I wanted to talk about this issue because I've seen many cases of LDS getting annoyed, or even offended, when they hear claims that Mormons aren't Christians. From what I've seen, many of those problems are caused by unclear wording from the Protestant side and misunderstandings on the LDS side. So I want to talk to you guys about it to get a better idea of how to word things as well as help clear up any misunderstandings you may have.None of us are insisting you leave your church to join ours. That would be expressly against our teachings. If one knows much of anything about our beliefs, he/she would know our teachings on agency. That it is not ours to force anyone to Heaven/God.But you do say the LDS church is the only church with the full gospel. When people claim Mormons aren't Christians, they're making the same basic claim as you do when you say you're the only church with the full gospel. They're not saying you don't have faith in Christ and they're not saying you're not trying to follow Him. They're saying your gospel is missing some essential elements.Rider, I get the feeling that you want us to say that we believe nobody else can be a real Christian. To be truthful, you come across as a cunning deceiver who is trying to trip us up in our own words. The Bible condemns such practices.I'm not trying to deceive you at all. I just want to get a better understanding of what you believe about being a Christian.How can two groups who contradict each other on the basics of Christ's teachings both be Christians? How can they both be following Christ when they're beliefs are going down different paths? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie123 Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Several times I've noticed that, when referring to people's conversions from (say) agnosticism to any other form of Christianity, Mormon speakers say things like: "She became what she called a Christian" instead of simply "She became a Christian". Yet when I've come out and asked them whether they consider Protestants and Catholics to be "true Christians" the answer is always "yes".This has got to be confusing.On the other hand, I've often read that LDS-members have only quite recently started calling themselves "Christians", and that traditionally they preferred to be called "Saints" or "Mormons". (I don't know how true this is, but I've seen it written enough times to think there's probably some truth to it.)Of course, it's only really a matter of Semantics. I believe the word "Christian" (or whatever the Greek equivalent was) was not coined until some time after Christ's death anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie123 Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 · Hidden Hidden I found an example (admittedly in an ex/anti site): I am an official ex-MormonMormons in the 1960s were told to tell people "no, we are Mormons" if asked if they were Christians. This did not win as many converts as desired so that got changed in the early 1970s to say "yes, we too are Christians". Link to comment
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