beefche Posted October 20, 2009 Report Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) In reading my scriptures, I had a thought and I can't resolve it. Laman and Lemuel are the poster boys for disobedience, rebelling, hardening hearts, etc. In 1 Nephi 16:38-39, it tells us that after Ishmael died, L&L began complaining about Nephi's alleged desires to rule and reign over them. The began stirring up anger. But then the voice of Lord "came down and did speak many words" to them. The voice of the Lord chastised them and they did repent. I'm confused: I've always thought that if you were being disobedient, then the Spirit withdraws. How can L&L who constantly stir up trouble have the Spirit speak to them? They even saw angels after being disobedient. What can we learn from this? (I'm guessing it's not going around beating our brothers with a rod and hope that the Spirit of God stops us...) Edited October 20, 2009 by beefche Quote
Jenamarie Posted October 20, 2009 Report Posted October 20, 2009 My personal interpretation of this is that the Lord did it to protect Nephi and Lehi. They were sons and brothers of the two people who were keeping the Gospel alive in that family. If they had been successful in killing them, the Gospel would probably not have made it to the Promised Land. Quote
OneEternalSonata Posted October 20, 2009 Report Posted October 20, 2009 Much as an angel visited Alma the Younger while he was still railing against the church... Doesn't the Spirit speak to those in need of repentance to encourage them to do so? He may not dwell with them, but He does speak to them. I believe there is a difference between the Spirit working upon the unrighteous and dwelling with them. Quote
FunkyTown Posted October 20, 2009 Report Posted October 20, 2009 The only answer is to go around beating our brothers with a rod! Actually, this is an interesting question and one I hadn't considered. Hmm - Well, we know that Jonah was pretty disobedient when the Lord spoke with him. Why does God choose to speak plainly to some of us rather than others? I don't know. Of course, I also don't know what all the consequences of every one of my actions would be. Quote
Gatorman Posted October 20, 2009 Report Posted October 20, 2009 Well, here is my question. The Spirit is able to comfort and teach us. However, I see the Angels, etc, rebuking and warning L&L, not comforting them. Would you prefer to be rebuked, to have that plain speak? :) Quote
Hemidakota Posted October 20, 2009 Report Posted October 20, 2009 In reading my scriptures, I had a thought and I can resolve it.Laman and Lemuel are the poster boys for disobedience, rebelling, hardening hearts, etc. In 1 Nephi 16:38-39, it tells us that after Ishmael died, L&L began complaining about Nephi's alleged desires to rule and reign over them. The began stirring up anger. But then the voice of Lord "came down and did speak many words" to them. The voice of the Lord chastised them and they did repent.I'm confused: I've always thought that if you were being disobedient, then the Spirit withdraws. How can L&L who constantly stir up trouble have the Spirit speak to them? They even saw angels after being disobedient. What can we learn from this? (I'm guessing it's not going around beating our brothers with a rod and hope that the Spirit of God stops us...)Both of them were no different than the days they left the portal of heaven. The personality of such, came to this mortal world and even worse than before.Now, the Spirit only spake to them for Nephi's sake. If the younger brother was not righteous, the Spirit would not have intervene. Quote
Misshalfway Posted October 20, 2009 Report Posted October 20, 2009 In the case of Alma the Younger, the angel came only because of the righteous prayers of his father. I would think the same with Laman and Lemuel and the pleadings of Lehi and Sariah and others. Quote
beefche Posted October 20, 2009 Author Report Posted October 20, 2009 We've seen this happening with all the bad boys of the scriptures: Cain, Paul/Saul, L&L, Alma the Younger, etc. So, if someone doesn't have righteous parents praying for them, then they are out of luck? I think there's something more to this, but I've yet to grasp it. I'm wondering if it shows us that the arm of God is long and patient. Despite the wickedness of these men, the Lord is still calling to them. Quote
NeuroTypical Posted October 20, 2009 Report Posted October 20, 2009 But then the voice of Lord "came down and did speak many words" to them. The voice of the Lord chastised them and they did repent.I'm confused: I've always thought that if you were being disobedient, then the Spirit withdraws. How can L&L who constantly stir up trouble have the Spirit speak to them?Saul was out wandering around being up to no good, when he was struck to the earth by a light from heaven, and the Lord's voice saying "Saul, why persecutest thou me?"My wife's grandfather, sitting on a barstool, heard plain as day "Wayne, why hast thou forsaken me?" My two cents: The influence of the Holy Ghost and the Lord yelling at L&L are two different things. I don't think the Lord is unable to be heard by naughty people if He really wants to be heard.LM Quote
Rhi_Bran_y_Hud Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 It is God's way to seek us out if we will not seek Him, and even die for us while we are still sinners. Quote
Moksha Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 Since repentance is right around the corner, it would seem that God never totally withdraws from us. That is a very comforting thought. :) Quote
ozzy Posted October 22, 2009 Report Posted October 22, 2009 Based on the examples in the scriptures (Laman and Lemuel, Alma the Younger, Nephi, etc.), the spirit and the angels have multiple roles. Rebuke, comfort, guidance, and reassurance are among these. I think that when we talk about the spirit withdrawing, two things can happen. Either it simply withdraws and we feel the effects of that, or it rebukes us until we get it right. I think the withdrawing bit is more directed at the part of the Spirit that makes us feel all warm and fuzzy. Quote
candyprpl Posted October 22, 2009 Report Posted October 22, 2009 In reading my scriptures, I had a thought and I can't resolve it.Laman and Lemuel are the poster boys for disobedience, rebelling, hardening hearts, etc. In 1 Nephi 16:38-39, it tells us that after Ishmael died, L&L began complaining about Nephi's alleged desires to rule and reign over them. The began stirring up anger. But then the voice of Lord "came down and did speak many words" to them. The voice of the Lord chastised them and they did repent.I'm confused: I've always thought that if you were being disobedient, then the Spirit withdraws. How can L&L who constantly stir up trouble have the Spirit speak to them? They even saw angels after being disobedient. What can we learn from this? (I'm guessing it's not going around beating our brothers with a rod and hope that the Spirit of God stops us...)After I read this I quickly remembered my own situation. My two sisters have been members of the Church since in their teens -- they are ten and twelve years older than I. I was clearly the black sheep. I did things in my past that I'm so thankful for the atonement and that I've been forgiven. I truly believe that because I had the family I had who prayed for me constantly that I was able to hear the Holy Spirit speak to me sometimes. I'm thankful for Lehi and Nephi's life stories and that of Alma (both of them). And since being a member I've had times when I've strayed (just a little) and felt the Spirit withdraw but we know that feeling is a warning. I think the prayers of my family is why I was blessed with Heavenly messengers when I had finally been humbled enough to 'come unto him.' Quote
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