Intelligence vs Intelligence

[Seminarysnoozer]

Thanks Hemidakota, Intelligences existing one above another also brings up a characteristic of Intelligences, that intelligences are of different ages. I don't know if that is something I picked up going to church and sleeping through seminary or if it is scripture. It makes sense as we call Jesus our 'older' brother.

[Hemidakota]

In completing a thought on the meaning of 'knowledge,' I will have to use our own dispensational prophet Joseph Smith again. The reasoning behind this, I believe he witnessed the creation itself. There is too much evidence to think otherwise when there is a 'similarly scriptorian voice' singing the same tune of other known prophets who received the same.

Not always is this prophet willing to divulge everything at one sitting either. I can relate to this as I believe it can rattle one’s cage when viewed without understanding. What is another intriguing line by Joseph, when he taught that God received His almighty power and glory by reason of His intelligence. Hence the oft-quoted dictum of the members of the church -

"The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth." (D&C 93:36)

Joseph said on another occasion this noteworthy address:

"Knowledge does away with darkness, suspense, and doubt; for these cannot exist where knowledge is. In knowledge there is power, God has more power than all other beings, because He has greater knowledge; and since he knows how to subject all other beings to Him. He has power over all." (H.C., V:340)

Thus we begin to understand that part of the great legacy handed down to the members by this prophet, which may be a summation of the following key words:

Intelligence

Light

Truth

Knowledge.

Joseph Smith also taught, GOD is a communal being (read D&C 130:2) and a GOD who is not unpredictable or changeable by nature. HE is the GOD of law and order as demonstrated by looking into a clear midnight sky. Members who understand that 'law and order' prevail in the physical realm somehow fail to realize that the same holds true in the spirit realm. A few members sometimes expect fantastic blessings from GOD when they have never paid the price for it and have never obeyed the law that governs it. As members of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, it would be wise on our part to mark this profound statement of GOD's law as uttered by Joseph Smith -

"There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of the world, upon which all blessings are predicated-and when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated." (D&C 130 18)

[Moksha]

.

DC 130:19

19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

This would seem to be depend on where the source of this diligence and obedience originated. For instance, obedience based on understanding the methodology of God would give you one result and obedience based on affirming someone's pronouncements which sprang from a Dark Ages speculation would give you another result.

If we were to put apologetic thought to the geocentric model of creation, would we really be adding to our knowledge beyond the veil?

:)

[Misshalfway]

I love your question, Snow.

I was thinking of this scripture with regards to truth and light. Sometimes we use the term "light" as it is associated with knowledge to be figurative but it seems that we are being taught that it is also literal. I was thinking of this D&C scripture that discusses this.

excerpts from D&C 88

-For intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth wisdom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light;

-And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.

D&C 50:24

That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.

God, as we know is literally full of light. His body literally glows or eminates light. I understand that his glory is a result of knowledge and truth and intelligence.

If we started out as intelligence or light then, at the very least I can say that we came from God. I am not sure how my existance and the existence of truth are the same thing....something that is tangible. But it seems that obtaining truth and becoming truth literally changes ones spiritual biology, if I can say it that way.

[Snow]

Then, the question is what 'intelligence' do we need to gain for our progressing? Do you believe that we need to understand black holes, dark matter, and which came first hominid or dinosaurs? Or, do you think that the intelligence we need to gain to progress on an eternal path is understanding of ourself, understanding of our Savior, knowledge of the scriptures in total, and knowledge of the Spirit?

I would take a look at what we are taught are important for salvation and guess that any intelligence that is beneficial to our salvation is intelligence of our Heavenly Father and the plan of salvation.

You are describing knowledge - not intelligence... and that is exactly the kind of thing about which the prophet Brigham Young had some sage counsel:

"Brigham Young had some advice on that narrow approach to life. He said, “ ‘Shall I sit down and read the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Book of Covenants all the time?’ says one. Yes, if you please, and when you have done, you may be nothing but a sectarian after all. It is your duty to study to know everything upon the face of the earth, in addition to reading those books” (Journal of Discourses, 2:93–94). Brigham Young goes on to say that he encouraged his own children to study music and dance, to attend the theater, and to read novels, things that he said, “expand their frames, add fire to their spirits, and improve their minds.”"

Lest you think BY was out to lunch, he was merely correctly expounding on scripture:

“Seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith” (D&C 88:118). [ref Sept 93 New Era p 17]

Contrary to you I believe that all light and knowledge comes from God and in learning anything worthwhile, we are learning of God and God's creation. The more the better, all the time.

[Snow]

This would seem to be depend on where the source of this diligence and obedience originated. For instance, obedience based on understanding the methodology of God would give you one result and obedience based on affirming someone's pronouncements which sprang from a Dark Ages speculation would give you another result.

If we were to put apologetic thought to the geocentric model of creation, would we really be adding to our knowledge beyond the veil?

:)

Hmm, but is there value in understanding who man's understanding of the model of creation progressed up through various discarded models to it's present and future understanding? And comprehending how knowledge progresses - or is stymied, and why?

There ain't many things more interesting than history.

[Snow]

Could the difference come simply from our use of the word 'intelligence' for smarts, and that the way the Lord uses it to describe us in our pre-spirit body state (one of 'light and truth)? Perhaps there simply wasn't a word for Joseph to use to describe us in that existence, and intellegence was the one most close to it?

We are all still intelligences, clothed in a spiritual and now a mortal body. We can increase our smarts here on the earth during this lifetime, but does that necessarily increase our intellegence self?

Joseph Smith was an intellectual - a frontier unschooled intellectual but intellectual nevertheless - I have to believe that he used the words intentionally and that they are related.

[Snow]

Snow,

Glad to hear you are doing well. Well there is a lot that we already know but sometimes we don't think about. Like there is a progression of intelligences behind us in progression.

take a look at this quote by Joseph Fielding Smith

“This is our explanation in regard to the Spirit of Christ, or Light of Truth, which every man receives and is guided by. Unless a man had the blessings that come from this Spirit, his mind would not be quickened; there would be no vegetation grow; the worlds would not stay in their orbits; because it is through this Spirit of Truth, this Light of Truth, according to this revelation, that all these things are done.

If we take this the way that he is saying it then intelligences in varying degrees of progression are the Light of Christ Spirit of Christ and Holy Ghost. So when it says that,

8 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.

it does not mean secular smarts or learning. Or even the proper wise application there of. IT MEANS TO INCREASE FROM THE LIGHT OF CHRIST intelligences (outside the church) To the Spirit of Christ intelligences (inside the Church) To the Fulness of the Holy Ghost intelligences (Calling and Election. Because these organizations are intelligences....

Angel Palmoni

Here is a Diagram showing the progression of intelligences within the plans of salvation

http://www.angelpalmoni.com/AngelPalmoni/View_The_Scrolls/Pages/PALMONI_files/Media/Progression%20Scroll%20FULL-3/Progression%20Scroll%20FULL-3.jpg?disposition=download

That makes it sound like "intelligence" or the light of Christ is the key to Unified Theory.

[Hemidakota]

I truly marvel over the discourse Joseph gave to King Follett funeral but as you read it, he lightly spoke on the subject [intelligence beginnings] but without any depth. I wonder if it was the fear and presumption of rejection of the members standing in audience.

You may have to read it more than once to see where he was going with the subject -

I have another subject to dwell upon, which is calculated to exalt man; but it is impossible for me to say much on this subject. I shall therefore just touch upon it, for time will not permit me to say all. It is associated with the subject of the resurrection of the dead—namely, the soul—the mind of man —the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so: the very idea lessens man in my estimation. I do not believe the doctrine; I know better. Hear it, all ye ends of the world; for God has told me so; and if you don’t believe me, it will not make the truth without effect. I will make a man appear a fool before I get through; if he does not believe it. I am going to tell of things more noble.

We say that God Himself is a self-existing being. Who told you so? It is correct enough; but how did it get into your heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? Man does exist upon the same principles. God made a tabernacle and put a spirit into it, and it became a living soul. (Refers to the Bible.) How does it read in the Hebrew? It does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says, “God made man out of the earth and put into him Adam’s spirit, and so became a living body.”

The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal [co-eternal] with God himself. I know that my testimony is true; hence, when I talk to these mourners, what have they lost? Their relatives and friends are only separated from their bodies for a short season: their spirits which existed with God have left the tabernacle of clay only for a little moment, as it were; and they now exist in a place where they converse together the same as we do on the earth.

I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it has a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal [co-eternal] with our Father in heaven.

I want to reason more on the spirit of man; for I am dwelling on the body and spirit of man—on the subject of the dead. I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man—the immortal part, because it had no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. As the Lord liveth, if it had a beginning, it will have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning, prove that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the housetops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself.

Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement.

The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits. [Ref: LDS.org - Ensign Article - The King Follett Sermon

[Gatorman]

Hmmm...Some of the thoughts stated here about light and intelligence and heavenly father being filled with light, what if we hypostulate that the Big Bang is actually the event where Heavenly Father finally achieved that perfect knowledge and therefore, 'banged' into his current existence? Or, maybe not. :)

[Misshalfway]

The big bang theory doesn't jive with me. It seems everything else I learn about spiritual and physical life spans and processes are just that....processes.

There is nothing about the potential of man that distresses me. I think life would be a very frustrating or stagnant existence if progression or improvement were not possible. I feel in my own process that I have wanted to put my faith and hope entirely into God to save me, fix me, and make it all better. It seems to me though that He has pointed me to back to myself.....back to looking inward to my own potentials, responsibilities and powers. Certainly part of that is also pointing me to Christ and to trust in a loving Father to stand with me. But I think it is interesting that God would teach me that I had power within myself and that I should trust it EVEN if I am mortal and limited and full of faults.

[Seminarysnoozer]

To me, the King Follett (why does that name always make me think of salmon?) sermon supports the idea that God gave birth to spirit children.

When I read the King Follett sermon, which I have done many times because it is confusing but interesting, I get the impression that what he is trying to say is that God could not create spirits as he does not have the power to create them from nothing but that does not mean that he could not procreate them. What's the difference? In procreation, like here on earth, the baby is made from DNA from both the mother and father meaning it was there before and the materials come from earth, there wasn't added material. It is not a new creation. Adams body, however was created, from the dust of the earth and then his spirit was placed in that creation. He has the power to create bodies but He does not have the power to create, from scratch, spirits. In other words He has to procreate them, a power that is out of His control. Exactly how He procreates them I don't know, but the material and the program (the equivalent of DNA or however we get HF traits in us) already exist. This to me is also comforting because it explains why some spirits seem to be inclined to evil, like Lucifer. If He actually created them from scratch I would have a hard time understanding how he could make an evil spirit. But knowing that it is out of His power, like the process of procreation, I can see how there are spirits with a propensity for evil produced.

His focus is clearly to explain that the spirit did not start at the persons earthly birth and therefore does not end at the persons earthly death. In front of people that probably grew up with the idea that the soul is created at birth here, I can see why he would have to stress that point to such a group. (just like we sometimes have to do here in this forum)

And the paragraph about being found in the midst of intelligences could easily fit with a time in which those spirits grew up, now what do we do? To me, that doesn't take away from Him being our Father, just like when I graduated from High School, my father said What are we going to do now? "You are going to go to college ... time for you to leave the house." Again, his point is that our real home is there, not here on earth. And at a funeral, that would be a very comforting thing to say and remind the family members about. Death is actually going back home to where we existed before. And the goal is that we will have spirit children of our own some day so the circle continues, thus the example of the ring.

[martybess]

This may be kind of a weird way of thinking about intelligence but I think of intelligence this way:

Do you remember the Borg’s in star trek and how they all had the same objective? They traveled the universe looking to assimilate technologies, life forms, planets etc? They were all one, together in their (objective). They were all different then each other though, they were all doing different things throughout the galaxies but all had the same (objective/intelligence). Well it’s a good way for me to kind of comprehend what intelligence is. The more were united with HF, the more were in tune with his desires (objectives/intelligence), the more we do his will and the more we grow in a portion of his (objectives/intelligence). It governs all because it holds the keys (knowledge and intelligence) to all and how everything works or (is). The more in tune we are with the collective (him) and the more we do (his) will (the collective’s objectives) the more the spirit (his knowledge/power/intelligence) on how everything works and is with us. We gain in intelligence (the force). ThEN! pure knowledge starts to flow!!!! Yeah for pure knowledge!!! Think when you’ve received a bit of pure knowledge flowing into you did you not feel power? Were you not invigorated? The HG, priesthood and the light of Christ are connected. They are all part of what HF has assimilated is. It’s is really the essence of (him).

It's Hemi's moto "moving forward together" this is key. Think of the temple. He telling us the key to it all in the temple.

-Marty

[Moksha]

Hmm, but is there value in understanding who man's understanding of the model of creation progressed up through various discarded models to it's present and future understanding? And comprehending how knowledge progresses - or is stymied, and why?

I would give that a two thumbs up. Excellent question BTW.

[Moksha]

The big bang theory doesn't jive with me.

However, it does lend visual poetry to the Biblical lines of God thinking, 'Let there be light" and adding form to that which was void.

[pam]

I don't know if anyone has noticed that I have stayed completely out of this conversation. All this talk about intelligence..well I feel kind of left out.

[TheAngelPalmoni]

Hey you know what it's all there in the scriptures for us to figure out right. I don't think the church is going to come out with a position on it until Christ returns to Zion and tells us all flat out. Some of us will be like WOW that is nothing that I thought it was. Some will say Hey I already knew that. I don't think the knowledge is going to save or damn anyone so for those who don't care don't worry just keep being Christlike and everything will be ok. For those who have to know everything and pretend to know everything can keep pondering and praying and discussing until it makes sense to us.

What does the moon turning to blood represent?

[martybess]

Hey you know what it's all there in the scriptures for us to figure out right. I don't think the church is going to come out with a position on it until Christ returns to Zion and tells us all flat out. Some of us will be like WOW that is nothing that I thought it was. Some will say Hey I already knew that. I don't think the knowledge is going to save or damn anyone so for those who don't care don't worry just keep being Christlike and everything will be ok. For those who have to know everything and pretend to know everything can keep pondering and praying and discussing until it makes sense to us.

Amen!

[mattkc]

Intelligence is something I have studied on for a great length, if you would like some more understanding,,,let me know

[Traveler]

We are intelligent and we all have an eternal intelligence.

What's the difference?

I love it when there is an effort to drill down and discover.

For me - many questions that seem difficult religiously become much clearer scientifically. I know this sounds odd but rather than conflict; I find great unity in religious and scientific understanding. With that in mind - Science tends to indentify and define intelligence as the ability to “learn”. Learning is defined as the ability to analyze a temporal process and modify behavior to change the outcome.

In short I see intelligence (as spoken of by Joseph Smith) as a sentient conscientiousness capable of repentance (having a change of heart). Here we define heart not as that organ that pumps blood or that which creates emotion but that which defines the center or core on one’s conscientiousness.

The joy in this answer is that it opens up the possibility of a gazillion new question - which is the definition of eternal intelligence.

The Traveler

[mattkc]

I agree...I find a scientific approach very satisfying or better defined inductive reasoning. If we classify intelligence as anything with the capacity to obey law, then there is intelligence found in the very atoms of the world. Our bodies are formed of the dust of the earth and progress with us. If you were to take away the veil and see the world on which the father of our spirits dwells, we would see a celestial world. Those elements filll the bodies of celestial beings, we in turn, our spiritual bodies, were formed out of and are the intelligence that were in the elements of that celestial world....In continuing the cycle when this world is Celestialized we will use the elements of this earth to form our spiritual offspring...And we are finding that even the atoms themselves can learn, it's why we can store data into materials that seem inert to us.

Edited December 24, 2011 by mattkc