Unschooling concept

[Avrham]

Children and people do not need to be taught to learn. For example, a baby may be guided to reach developmental milestones but they do it in their own time. You can't force them to learn things before they are ready. Same it is with older children.

"If he's not interested it's like throwing marshmallows at his head and calling it eating."

Have you heard of unschooling? What do you think of it?

[pam]

I've never heard of the concept of unschooling. Except in cases where people have been brainwashed.

[Avrham]

With radical unschooling I'd imagine it impossible to be brainwashed as it requires no teacher - brainwashing yourself?!!! . You are responsible for your own learning.

[pam]

Let me ask this. Do you believe in unschooling? Frankly I was appalled at the message presented in the 2nd link.

[Avrham]

Yes I do believe in unschooling could you explain what you find appalling about the 2nd link would like to hear you thoughts

[pam]

The idea that parents should not be in control of their children by providing limits for them. The speaker argued about something as simple as bed time. That children would find their own natural limits. I totally disagree with this.

Edited November 8, 2009 by pam
typo

[Avrham]

The idea that parents should not be in control of there children by providing limits for them. The speaker argued about something as simple as bed time. That children would find their own natural limits. I totally disagree with this.

yes it seems like a hard concept to understand but do you believe that children need to be controlled or do you/parents trust their kids especially about bedtime or eating do you tell the kids you must eat all this or do you let kids decide how much they need to eat Do you disagree with the idea that kids can know their own natural limits just really interested in your opinon

[pam]

You know..I'm not going to defend my right to raise my kids the way I do/did. I believe kids need limits. I believe that we as parents need to set those limits. If one of those limits is 9:00 bedtime..then we as a parent have a right to do that. Whether that's right or wrong isn't for anyone else to say. It's what is right for me and what I feel is right for my children.

What I found ridiculous was the way the woman in that video kept comparing children to her spouse. Would I set a timeframe for watching tv for a spouse? No. Would I for my children? Yes.

And no I never made my kids eat everything. The rule was they at least had to try it if it was something new.

[NeuroTypical]

Yes, I've heard about unschooling.

No, I'm not a big fan. Got no problem with people who like it, but it's not for us.

LM

[Jenamarie]

Unschooling, to me, is learning something when you want to learn it, and not waiting for a teacher or someone else to hand you that lesson. At least, that is how we present it to our children (they're in public school currently, but will be coming home next school year, and we'll be doing a bit of non-radical unschooling, in addition to more structured learning for subjects like math and language arts). For me, it's following my kids' interests, rather than dictating them to them.

For example: when setting up a science curriculum for my kids, if they want to learn about ocean animals, then we'll check out a bunch of books and movies about ocean animals from the library. It won't matter to me if the kids their age in public school are learning about weather patterns in their science class because that's what the state-approved curriculum dictates. I imagine at some point they'll get really interested in the shapes clouds can make, and that will spark an interest, and they can learn about it then.

I agree with the marshmellow analogy a bit. Do you remember those moments in school when you were bored to tears by what the teacher was teaching? Do you remember a word of what was being taught during those times? How about when what the teacher was covering was something you really enjoyed, like dinosaurs or thunderstorms, how much do you remember? Probably a lot more? That's unschooling. Being aware of your child's interests and inborn curriosity, and then feeding it.

[pam]

In responding to the 2nd link provided..it wasn't just a matter of including additional education to a child if they had an interest in a certain subject.

[Jenamarie]

In responding to the 2nd link provided..it wasn't just a matter of including additional education to a child if they had an interest in a certain subject.

I know. :) There are many degrees of unschooling, or "child-led learning" (and "learning" including more than just school subjects, but things like self-discipline and the like). I've read several books on unschooling, just because the idea really fascinated me. I do believe that we sometimes don't trust our children enough to learn things on their own time and in their own way, but I don't agree with quiet the degree of "hands-off-ishness" radical unschooling advocates.

[Avrham]

You know..I'm not going to defend my right to raise my kids the way I do/did. I believe kids need limits. I believe that we as parents need to set those limits. If one of those limits is 9:00 bedtime..then we as a parent have a right to do that. Whether that's right or wrong isn't for anyone else to say. It's what is right for me and what I feel is right for my children. .

hello yes as parents its your right to do want you believe is right no harm asking the question why though(please don't take this personally)

What I found ridiculous was the way the woman in that video kept comparing children to her spouse. Would I set a timeframe for watching tv for a spouse? No. Would I for my children? Yes.

I suppose its a matter of respecting children as you would anyone else and not to be condescending towards their choices Bishop asked me the other day at church when my son is getting baptised he(son) was right next to me, he said"I am getting baptised not mee dad" I tried not to laugh but Bishop turned and smiled to my son and said"I'll ask you next time" my son said " My name is Nassa" and ran of to join the other kids

nd no I never made my kids eat everything. The rule was they at least had to try it if it was something new.

totally agree with you there:):)

[prisonchaplain]

I'm a mild victim of this general philosophy. Milder versions include Montessori, "the student-centered classroom," "the democratic classroom," etc. The idea is that students direct the learning. I attended a K-6 elementary school that practiced much of this. Each student scheduled his/her own day, with only a few requirements that needed to get done each week. Teachers were more like resource people, facilitators, and counselors. The downside is that children will avoid their weaknesses. For me it was cursive. To this day I print. It takes me a half-hour to cursive out a paragraph that most do in five minutes. Why--I did the absolute minimum in elementary school. Fortunately, I enjoyed reading. The average reading level coming out of that school (should have been 7.0) was 4.0. I was probably in the high 7s, and so was a poster child for the school.

I'm not dead set against unschooling, or liberal approaches, but for most kids it's highly inefficient. Very mature students and gifted students would probably benefit most.

[AarontheInvestigator]

After watching the video, I am not a fan of this concept.

"to get creative and find ways to meet everybody's needs simultaneously."

Idealism is great in theory...

[Elgama]

I unschool mine well to a point we do, do basic reading, writing and arithmetic everyday but that is enforced by creating a Steiner type rhythm to the day with Mummy taking the lead i.e I sit down with my abacus and maths book or reading or writing book. Unschooling has nothing to do with not setting limits and is much harder work than going with a curriculum. It is purely related to the education, you can unschool and still have a 7pm bedtime. When children of the prophets talk about their parents they often say they behaved because they were expected to and unschooling happens and works really well when the parent creates the atmosphere for learning

All other subjects come when a child asks a question and we go and look it up, read, create a scrapbook, we do nature walks with binoculars and bird books etc, we made a weather station for the garden, over the next year want to create a garden that encourages wildlife.

Unschooled children tend to be later learning to read and write usually about 8 but then they go straight to chapter books but this fits in with the European countries that don't start formal education until 6 or 7l later and their literacy rates tend to be better than ours in the UK.

I do find it important to educate myself constantly so I can answer questions that come up. It is my favourite choice because my biggest beef with schools in my country is that they do not give the children the ability to learn for themselves and to think for themselves, and with unschooling its about learning together rather and learning how to learn rather than cramming facts down the throat of a child most of which by adulthood will be forgotten - I got good marks in French at 33 doubt I could hold my own in France. My daughter is learning using the Rosetta Stone package so the knowledge should stick better

-Charley

[sensibility]

I was basically unschooled growing up. At the end of it, I had standardised test scores in the 98th national percentile and was admitted to the university of my choice (BYU-P, obviously. ), where I got all A's until I dropped out to get married and move to England (as you do).

Unschooling worked for me, probably better than any other educational structure would have. However, it only worked because I personally had a very strong drive to succeed and a very thorough understanding of what I needed to do to achieve the university admission that I wanted. So with that end-goal in mind, I independently created and followed a very traditional school curriculum for myself. In the end, I suppose unschooling came full-circle for me, and ended up right back in textbooks and tests.

Unschooling wouldn't have worked for my siblings, because they don't have the same drive and ability to set and achieve goals. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I'll say that I think it probably wouldn't work for most children. I haven't even considered using this approach with my kids, to be honest. Children aren't adults and it isn't fair to expect them to be.

[nbblood]

This reply is to nobody in particular, just in general.

Let's assume you're out in the yard with your child and he/she is playing. A busy street runs right in front of your house. Now, we certainly don't want to set limits for our children, that would be restricting their potential. So we'll let them figure out for themselves where the limits are when a Ford F150 bumper meets their forehead.

If this seems over-the-top and ridiculous, that's because it is. That's how ridiculous the notion of parents not setting limits for their children is to me. Children don't have the knowledge and experience we, as parents, have. It is our responsibility to guide and nurture children and show them patterns of behavior that lead to successful results in this thing we call life. Sure, we give them more leeway in some things than others because learning through experience is a valuable method. But at the same time, I'm not about to let my child learn that the stove is extremely hot by allowing them to place their hand on it.

Small children don't pick their bedtime because they simply can't weigh the benefits and consequences of their decision based on their experience. Their decision-making hasn't matured.....they're children. Sure, as they develop more mature attitudes and decision-making, parents probably need to recognize that and allow them the opportunity to make more decisions.....learn from mistakes. But that needs to be an assessment by the parents.

Children need guidance and direction. They're looking for it. A notion that parents don't set limits for their children is absolutely absurd to me.

Edited December 15, 2009 by nbblood

[Bini]

Might work for some people. Definitely not for everyone. How do parents implement "unschooling" with a child that is developmentally disabled?

[Avrham]

Let's assume you're out in the yard with your child and he/she is playing. A busy street runs right in front of your house. Now, we certainly don't want to set limits for our children, that would be restricting their potential. So we'll let them figure out for themselves where the limits are when a Ford F150 bumper meets their forehead.If this seems over-the-top and ridiculous, that's because it is. That's how ridiculous the notion of parents not setting limits for their children is to

I am just wondering what parent would let their children run out on the road?I suppose teaching them about why crossing the road is dangerous would be benefical principal to learn and would have nothing to do with setting any limits

Children don't have the knowledge and experience we, as parents, have. It is our responsibility to guide and nurture children and show them patterns of behavior that lead to successful results in this thing we call life. Sure, we give them more leeway in some things than others because learning through experience is a valuable method. But at the same time, I'm not about to let my child learn that the stove is extremely hot by allowing them to place their hand on it.

Would you

Small children don't pick their bedtime because they simply can't weigh the benefits and consequences of their decision based on their experience. Their decision-making hasn't matured.....they're children. Sure, as they develop more mature attitudes and decision-making, parents probably need to recognize that and allow them the opportunity to make more decisions.....learn from mistakes. But that needs to be an assessment by the parents.Children need guidance and direction. They're looking for it. A notion that parents don't set limits for their children is absolutely absurd to me.

I suppose your questioning their needs vs whats good for them its interesting that parents(including myself) cannot trust their kids for instance my too oldest kids go to pay the bills their both 6/9 yrs old just to give them(they find it a thrill)we live not far from the Post-office the lady used to look at me with this bemused look at first but then she liked having them come every second week ,I have been trying to show the kids to develope a sense of independence and that they will inherit certain responsibilities along the way, I try always ask how they feel and pay attention and encourage them to make their best decision(sounds weird)We sometimes get it right especially about sleep, As to being not mature enough its interesting that the savior taught we should be childlike attribute not childish it seems the more older one( myself) gets tend to fall in the childish catagory

Yes parents are the final arbiter for their children thats the fun part:):):)

cheers mate

[RachelleDrew]

I've heard of it, but it's not my thing. I would have done miserably had my parents "unschooled" me. I thrive on competition and regulation, so school was needed for me to reach my full potential. My son already seems to have a similar learning pattern that I do, so I don't believe homeschooling or even unschooling will be in the cards.

As for my kids choosing their bedtime?.....hahahahahahahahahahaha! Never gonna happen, not until they get to high school anyway.

[Elgama]

Thing is I knew I wanted to homeschool and take mostly an unschooling approach before I had children, it began the moment they were born. I think its different when you start imposing it on children that have been more traditionally schooled and have set habits, it should feel effortless for the child but in order to work should not be effortless for the parents.. You can still be competitive one of my favourite books is Racing Alone by Nader Khalili, (an architect that went from designing Skyscrapers to Earth Architecture) - I love a story in the book about his son when he was about 4 and was racing with some older children in the park, he got tired of always losing so asked his Dad to count him off and he raced on his own stopping several times to admire things and pick up leaves, then crossed the line beaming. I personally believe learning to be competitive with yourself and strive for your best is a better way but maybe for others it is not.

Some children need more guidance than others my middle child I did need to set a bedtime for a few months as he was taking the mickey (he is 3) right now I don't have one for my 6 and 3 year old I get them ready for bed by 6.30pm every night, and its very rare they are still awake by 8pm. 6.30-7.30pm the are in bed usually except Monday night because of Family Home Evening. I took a leaf out of my home educating inspiration and just get them up before 6am...I find if I wake up and start moving around even my daughter who loves sleep gets up.

I've used a Steiner model where by I do things and they join in - its done because that is what we do at that point in the day, if I bake a loaf of bread the kids join in we have done science and home economics, then we may go shopping we have done money and maths, the walk to the shop allows for local history, and watching some documentaries or listening to the radio allows the children to ask questions.

My 3 year old has a speech disorder so with his speech therapy he has 5 minutes or so with me describing his play which has given me some great new techniques

As a couple we have also been working our way through How to Talk so Kids will Learn which is again giving me new skills

I was inspired when I read the Continuum Concept by Jean Liedloff when I was about 15, its basically an Anthropological study from a people in the Amazon, and for me a lot of it makes sense. Behaviour comes about because examples are set,

[Avrham]

If anyone is interested radical/unschooling is a term in which John Holt(educator)mid 70s came up with

"Ask any radical unschooler and you'll get a different answer, but here's mine...

Radical Unschooling is living without school- as though there is no such thing. It's trusting your children will learn everything they need to know for their lives, in their own time, and in their own way. And, it works of course- because children are vitally interested in their world...they are "wired to learn".

I like to tell people it's sort of like how they learn as babies and toddlers- there's no reason for that inate curiosity and joy to leave because they turn 5, or 6 or 8...or any age. If noone squashes a child's natural love of learning (of *being*), they won't lose it.

So, the way you and I like to learn about things that interest us- our children are given that same freedom...and when I say "given", that's not accurate- it was always theirs- I just didn't take it away.

The difference, as I understand it, between radical unschooling and unschooling- is that unschooling is trusting a child will learn everything he academically needs to know without school. Radical unschooling differs in that we trust our children will learn *everything* they need...that is, for example- we don't tell them it is time to go to bed- they go when their bodies feel tired. They are, as much as anyone is, in charge of their own bodies, their own lives."

"Birds fly, fish swim, man thinks and learns. Therefore, we do not need to motivate children into learning by wheedling, bribing or bullying. We do not need to keep picking away at their minds to make sure they are learning. What we need to do, and all we need to do, is bring as much of the world as we can into the school and classroom (in our case, into their lives); give children as much help and guidance as they ask for; listen respectfully when they feel like talking; and then get out of the way. We can trust them to do the rest." John Holt, "How Children Learn

[Miss_Mae]

I realize this is a pretty old thread, and I haven't read all the replies, so I'm sorry if I don't add anything beneficial.

However, I just wanted to add my testimonial here. I actually was "un-schooled" from about (what would be) the 1st grade through 6th grade, and half-time during Jr. High and High school. I went to a school here in Utah called Aspen Village. We students were in charge of our own education. If we felt we would learn best with a teacher, we asked a student-teacher from BYU to come and teach us. We, with the teacher, set the goals and rules for our classes. If we felt we would learn best with just our peers and books or other supplies, we found a way to get those supplies. Here's how I (and, from my estimations, all the other kids I knew there) benefited:

We learned to LOVE to learn! We don't "hate math" or "hate reading" because we were never forced to do those things in a way that was coercive. However, we still learned math and learned to read, etc. How so? Well, these subjects--the "core" subjects--are the things we as a society have decided are necessary to get around in the world. They are necessary because they are ever-present and factor into a great many daily tasks. Because of this, they presuppose being a somewhat natural thing to learn. Case in point: at some time during my years at Aspen Village, my friends and I wanted to buy a basketball standard. We had to earn the money for this because there were no public funds available to us. So, we started a weekly bake-sale. WE thought it up. WE got the recipes. WE did the math to figure what our revenues and profits were, and how long we would need to do it and how much we'd need to sell before we could buy the standard.

Another example: If you read the book Free at Last you will find that, while no one at the book's subject-school, Sudbury Valley, which is an unschooling facility, has ever been coerced or asked to read, EVERY single student has learned to. AND in 40+ years, not ONE Sudbury Valley student has ever been found to have a reading disability or disorder. Not that that presupposes causation, but it is interesting.

In Jr. High I went to public school. In science I had not a clue what they were talking about, because the teacher was uninteresting and rude. Our homework mostly consisted of copying definitions from a dictionary onto paper. I received 103% in the class and don't remember a thing about it. This is typical of most of the classes I "had" to take. When I decided to just take what I wanted from the public school (I only went to English, Drama, and Art) I learned so much more.

I am a BYU Magna Cum Laude graduate (not that I think grades really mean anything) and I have been accepted to BYU Law. Most of my friends from Aspen Village have found themselves in similar situations.

While I do not believe children can be treated just like adults. I also do not believe that excessive coercion will do ANYTHING good for education. God does not use force with us. See D&C 121:41. While this scripture is speaking of the Priesthood, I believe it can apply to anything wherein unlawful (speaking in relation to God's laws) force is used.

[mychildrensmother]

God does not use force with us.

Love that. It seems all too often we are 'guilted' or coerced to do things that often go against our free will to choose and make our decisions. Even in the Church.