pam Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) Much easier to put the blame elsewhere than on our own weaknesses. Edited November 24, 2009 by pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Ultimately, there is a classic defense of God in free will. It suggests that God allows evil free reign in this dispensation precisely because he gave us free will. The alternative would be a trouble free world of automatons. If these are the only two real options, then God believes our freedom is even more precious than the consequences of evil are horrific. Additionally, this environment, in which freedom is total, is the only one in which those of us who will gain relationship with God can truly experience meaningful love.Said another way, if God mitigated some evils, he'd be partial. If he mitigated all, we'd be souless. If he mitigates none (other than, perhaps in response to prayers), then we accuse him of allowing or even willing evil consequences. It appears God found the latter to be the most worthy course for history. The problem is when we muddy the water by adding the word "free". If G-d gave us our will then it is not really our will but the will that was determined for us when we were given it. Free will is the power to express our will. Therefore, if G-d gave us freedom to express our will then our will must have existed before G-d gave us power to express our will. It must not be determined by G-d or it is his will and not ours - It can only be our will if we are the only determination of it. But if G-d gave us our will then the power to express "free will" is nothing other than an expression of what G-d gave us and therefore is not determined by us. Thus it is that in order for our will to be freed it must be determined by us and not G-d - otherwise it is G-d's will that is freed because it is the will that he determined. No matter how you define our will - if G-d created it and determined it - then in reality it is his will by his determination and not ours.The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rameumptom Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Perhaps the problem is we are dividing things up wrong. It might not be an issue of evil, but of opposition. 2 Nephi 2 tells us the importance of opposition. Without it, we would not exist, there would be no purpose to anything. Agency comes to us because of the atonement of Jesus Christ. Free will (libertarian or not) is dependent upon that agency. Evil is just one component of opposition and agency. Without it, we cannot have agency or existence. We can argue over how much evil is really necessary before it gets "gratuitous", however the end game depends on God's POV, not ours. If God determines that utter desolation, abomination and destruction are occasionally necessary for agency to be preserved and people exalted, then so be it. The key is the atonement of Christ. If we focus solely on evil, then we lose focus on the truly important thing - and that is that while evil never seems to be a good thing, it is useful in bringing to pass God's plan for our salvation. If evil were limited solely to minor issues, then none of us would feel beholden to God and Christ. Atonement would be meaningless. But because of the Hitlers and Dahmers, we feel the need to reach out and upward to God for our salvation. Why does D&C 19 tell us to repent or suffer even as Christ did? Because if for us to suffer that amount causes us to repent and return to God, it is worth it. Just look at what it did for Alma (Alma 36). Sometimes it requires great pain and suffering for us to embrace the atonement. And given the atonement pays for all sin and suffering, there is no gratuitous evil (even though it may seem so, when we focus too narrowly on mortality). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Some suggest that God's knowledge is full in that he knows all there is to know; yet he does not know the future. There are concepts that support this, and a belief in libertarian free will must be supported by such a concept. However, there are issues: how would God know which parts of the gold plates to have Nephi/Mormon preserve so that 1400 years later, Joseph would have the right number of pages available to replace the Book of Lehi with the Small plates? What if Joseph would have lost 350 pages? or only 25 pages? How would that have affected the loss of the manuscript and retranslating later?So, there are issues on all sides of the debate. And as I said, I'm ambivalent.I agree. Why would GOD reside on a U&T world if HE knows the future or what lies above HIM? GOD's receives the fullness for HIS sphere. What GOD does gain is experience and glory from those intelligences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Ultimately, there is a classic defense of God in free will. It suggests that God allows evil free reign in this dispensation precisely because he gave us free will. The alternative would be a trouble free world of automatons. If these are the only two real options, then God believes our freedom is even more precious than the consequences of evil are horrific. Additionally, this environment, in which freedom is total, is the only one in which those of us who will gain relationship with God can truly experience meaningful love.Said another way, if God mitigated some evils, he'd be partial. If he mitigated all, we'd be souless. If he mitigates none (other than, perhaps in response to prayers), then we accuse him of allowing or even willing evil consequences. It appears God found the latter to be the most worthy course for history.Based on the doctrine of ‘self-existent’ or to act for itself, it is an eternal law even GOD lives by and enforces among HIS sphere.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 The problem is when we muddy the water by adding the word "free". If G-d gave us our will then it is not really our will but the will that was determined for us when we were given it. Free will is the power to express our will. Therefore, if G-d gave us freedom to express our will then our will must have existed before G-d gave us power to express our will. It must not be determined by G-d or it is his will and not ours - It can only be our will if we are the only determination of it. But if G-d gave us our will then the power to express "free will" is nothing other than an expression of what G-d gave us and therefore is not determined by us. Thus it is that in order for our will to be freed it must be determined by us and not G-d - otherwise it is G-d's will that is freed because it is the will that he determined. No matter how you define our will - if G-d created it and determined it - then in reality it is his will by his determination and not ours.The TravelerEven among the brethren have dropped the term 'free' and only use the term 'agency'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 You often hear them say "moral agency" and not "free agency." Although, personaly I think the terms are synonomous, maybe it helps drive the point home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rameumptom Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 I agree. Why would GOD reside on a U&T world if HE knows the future or what lies above HIM? GOD's receives the fullness for HIS sphere. What GOD does gain is experience and glory from those intelligences.Spoken as a true follower of Eugene England! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 No matter how you define our will - if G-d created it and determined it - then in reality it is his will by his determination and not ours.The Traveler If God can willingly humble himself, becoming a little lower than the angels, then he can grant us a will that we control and determine. If my belief means that God's power or knowledge becomes limited, then God has willfully constrained himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boloki Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 There are two scriptures that imply the God created evil and I am not sure what the LDS interpretation of that is. Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? Amos 3:6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormwitch Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 There are two scriptures that imply the God created evil and I am not sure what the LDS interpretation of that is. Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? Amos 3:6A matter of translation... The German bible for example calls this "evil" a "Unglück" that is calamity, disaster, accident etc., the Dutch bible calls it a "ramp" which is disaster or catastrophe. Here something happens, that is indeed bad for the people involved, but nothing "evil" as in Satan! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 Spoken as a true follower of Eugene England! He believe GOD is still growing in knowledge in this sphere, that is not the case. Receiving the FULLNESS is obtaining ALL KNOWLEDGE of this sphere. It does not state for those kingdoms above HIM either. It means this state only. As I do not agree with Elder McConkie [1980] when he chasitied Eugene, that this is the end state as to eternality for GOD. This is not the case. Progression simple does not end in the Celestial Kingdom. There are kingdoms above us that awaits them that are called. But what is doctrinal and taught, it stops at the Celestial Kingdom. I always curious in what the Lord revealed to both Joseph Smith [D&C 76] that was not allowed to be written. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seminarysnoozer Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 He believe GOD is still growing in knowledge in this sphere, that is not the case. Receiving the FULLNESS is obtaining ALL KNOWLEDGE of this sphere. It does not state for those kingdoms above HIM either. It means this state only. As I do not agree with Elder McConkie [1980] when he chasitied Eugene, that this is the end state as to eternality for GOD. This is not the case. Progression simple does not end in the Celestial Kingdom. There are kingdoms above us that awaits them that are called. But what is doctrinal and taught, it stops at the Celestial Kingdom. I always curious in what the Lord revealed to both Joseph Smith [D&C 76] that was not allowed to be written. How did you arrive at that statement? "It does not state for those kingdoms above HIM either."Kingdoms above God?or Kingdoms above Eugene England?What do you mean progression does not end in the Celestial Kingdom? One can progress beyond the Celestial Kingdom? I've never heard that before. Of course, we know there is continued progression in the Celestial Kingdom, but beyond it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormwitch Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 (edited) Progression simple does not end in the Celestial Kingdom. There are kingdoms above us that awaits them that are called. But what is doctrinal and taught, it stops at the Celestial Kingdom. Sure? What exactly is doctrinal and taught??? What is knowledge? I believe this goes far beyond simple words phrased to theorems or doctrines. The deeper understanding of any doctrin is endless. Even if you think you have understood something in it's fullness, there might be some understanding beyond. Unless things are revealed to us in the scriptures, we can only guess what conditions are in the celestial kingdom. As educated guesses might be... they remain what they are: guesses. And maybe God is having a good laugh at this discussion!But aren't we a bit off-topic??? Edited November 25, 2009 by stormwitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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