Need advice

[lost87]

"come into a ward where they are having difficulty understanding and feeling that they aren't wanted or welcome there because of the language they speak."

The ward and myself have never made them feel unwelcome. That is a pretty nasty conclusion to come to.

you'd be surprised at how well your real feelings shine through....especially when you are viewing the members as "criminals"....i don't think its a "nasty conclusion" at all to think that the new spanish speaking members of the ward are feeling some of your angst. In fact, I'd say its a pretty naive conclusion to say that they have no idea that you dislike the situation so much.

[pam]

I am on the verge of not going anymore. I am not able to focus on the lessons and I must say, I am not the only one in my ward that feels this way. A number of sisters have made comments about this.

I wonder how I might have come to that conclusion? I've not seen you mention ONCE about wanting to help them, about wanting to compromise, about wanting to find some solution so that all might be happy. All I've seen is how it's distracting and you are thinking about not going any more and others have made comments as well. So sorry, if I've come to the wrong conclusion. I just could not see any other.

[pam]

And yes I know how those people feel. I lived in Hawaii for 3 years and was in a ward that the majority of the people spoke the Hawaiian language. Any idea how many prayers, how many testimonies, how many baby blessings were given in the Hawaiian language and I didn't understand a word?

Yet not even knowing the language, I could feel the Spirit coming through in their words. Yet I still went knowing there would be much I didn't understand and didn't bother me a bit. And wow...Hawaii is a state in the United States too.

[prisonchaplain]

I have my own beliefs about the out of control illegal population crossing our borders on a daily basis. My stand on this is if we have Spanish translators in church and a family moves into the ward and only speaks Russian,lets say,do we also get them a interpreter or anyone else that doesn't speak English? When Elders go to the MTC to learn different languages because they are going to foreign country's it does not take them "years and years". I know this is with the Lords help but why can't the Elders just have interpreters like the people who come here and after being here for years still not know how to carry on a conversation in English? It is very distracting and if you have never had this go on in your church meetings you will not know what I am talking about.

During my four years as a chaplain in Miami, 90% of my services were conducted with translation. This in a facility where we generally had 8-15 men per service. I still remember one day when I spoke in English, the translator spoke in Spanish, and a fellow in back was translating yet again for a couple of others in Creole.

Language learning is very difficult. Many who come from south of the border are not highly educated. So, learning is even tougher. LDS missionaries learn rudimentary language at the MTC, and then immerse themselves for many months. Most immigrants come here to work, and earn a better future for their children--not to become model English speakers.

So, it may be somewhat distracting and difficult at first, but I'd urge patience. The accommodation is what Jesus would do, imho.

[Sisterjanedoe1]

And yes I know how those people feel. I lived in Hawaii for 3 years and was in a ward that the majority of the people spoke the Hawaiian language. Any idea how many prayers, how many testimonies, how many baby blessings were given in the Hawaiian language and I didn't understand a word?

Yet not even knowing the language, I could feel the Spirit coming through in their words. Yet I still went knowing there would be much I didn't understand and didn't bother me a bit. And wow...Hawaii is a state in the United States too.

My best friend is from Hawaii. She is Samoan and I love her so much. I also have friends of Hispanic decent. So attacking my character by saying I have a problem with people of Hispanic descent is not only uncalled for but just plain mean. You don't know me and have no right to say such things about me. I can see the brotherly love coming from this forum. Attacking me for what you THINK you know about me.

[pam]

Please show me where I attacked your character by saying you have a problem with people of Hispanic descent. I've mentioned perhaps a lack of seeing their side of the situation. I've mentioned that perhaps people are feeling a bit inconvenienced by having interpreters there. I've mentioned they might not feel quite as welcome due to language differences. But not ONCE did I personally attack your character saying you have a problem with Hispanic people.

[prisonchaplain]

Sisterjanedoe1, I'll confess I'm conerned. I don't know you, but you said you may leave your ward, and it sounds like there are some like-minded ladies you've been talking this over with. Do you all really plan to leave? Are you considering going to the bishop and asking for changes? Will you threaten to leave en masse if he declines?

I don't know you. No one hear does. But, what I've read leads me to believe you are angry over the services provided to the Spanish-speaking folk in the ward. So why are you angry--well, yes, it's distracting...but is that it? Also, what would you have the leadership to do? How might they fix the problem to everyone's satisfactioN?

[Vanhin]

Oh don't worry Sisterjanedoe1, they are just a remnant of Jacob hanging out with us, they mean us no harm.

And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. (3 Ne. 21:12)

And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation. (D&C 87:5)

Nothing to get all concerned about.

Vanhin

[Prodigal_Son]

Sisterjanedoe1:

First of all, let me say welcome!

Second, let me express apologies for the fact that some of the responses to your genuine concerns have been less than Christlike. I'm not sure why this thread ended up in attack-mode.

I sense that your spiritual edification is suffering from this adjustment in your life. I recognize how easy it would be to lose focus with multiple speakers and languages moving in tandem. And I respect the fact that there could be a natural feeling of begrudgment (I think I just made that word up) for those who've cut into your spiritual feast. It must be tough. And surely it's frustrating, coming to terms with the fact that this is likely to be a long-term situation.

That being said, it makes me think of how - early on in my marriage - I felt frustrated by the fact that my personal spiritual growth seemed stifled by my newfound parental and marital responsibilities. I hated that so much of my free time was history - that I was so exhausted come evening, that I was lucky to even crack my scriptures open! For a long time, I actually felt like I was spiritually losing ground.

In due season, however, the Lord helped me to understand that - though I wasn't growing and progressing in the ways I was accustomed to - there was tangential growth galore in my life. Sure, I was forgetting my memorized scripture masteries, and I wasn't doing so hot in other categories... but I was learning to sacrifice my wants for my wife's. I was learning to put off my desires for the welfare of my children. I was learning to play less and work more for the good of my family. I was learning empathy towards others. And on and on...

Now we know that the Lord will not try us beyond that which we are able to bear, right? Therefore, the Lord has EVERY EXPECTATION that you can and WILL adapt to this next hurdle - and will grow in new ways as a result! Progress may not always be fun, but it IS always good for you.

Hang in there. Speak with the leadership of your ward and stake. You have sustained them multiple times - so now's the time to walk the walk by trusting their judgment. Let them know your concerns, and ask for guidance in how you (and any other struggling ward members) can adapt to this new change.

I wish you the best, and I know that you have every capacity to embrace this challenge and grow from it.

[Sisterjanedoe1]

"It kinda sounds like you have a bit of a vendetta against the hispanic/latino population that you really need to get over quick."

Pam, that comment was what I was talking about not you attacking me. I answered your post because my best friend is from Hawaii,which you spoke of in that post

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[pam]

Thanks for clarifying that. You had quoted my post so it had appeared you were speaking to me. I was just a bit confused because I knew I hadn't accused you of that.

I do understand your frustration so I apologize if I appear that I do not. But I also understand the other side too.

It's a difficult situation. You on one hand want to be able to listen to the lessons without distractions. They on the other hand need the translators so they too can get the lessons.

Hopefully your ward will be able to come to some kind of a solution that satisfies everyone.

[lost87]

"It kinda sounds like you have a bit of a vendetta against the hispanic/latino population that you really need to get over quick."

Pam, that comment was what I was talking about not you attacking me. I answered your post because my best friend is from Hawaii,which you spoke of in that post

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FYI...that was MY post not Pam's....and if you are going to post a request for advice on a forum you ought to be prepared to hear some advice that isn't exactly tailored to what you want to hear...I am not in the catering business.

[Sisterjanedoe1]

Sisterjanedoe1, I'll confess I'm conerned. I don't know you, but you said you may leave your ward, and it sounds like there are some like-minded ladies you've been talking this over with. Do you all really plan to leave? Are you considering going to the bishop and asking for changes? Will you threaten to leave en masse if he declines?

I don't know you. No one hear does. But, what I've read leads me to believe you are angry over the services provided to the Spanish-speaking folk in the ward. So why are you angry--well, yes, it's distracting...but is that it? Also, what would you have the leadership to do? How might they fix the problem to everyone's satisfactioN?

I am not angry at the services provided to them I am frustrated by not being able to hear the lesson at times. Losing out on parts of the lesson. There hasn't been in depth conversations about this with others but there have been comments made about it. I don't think there will be a mass exodus out of the ward because of this, I am just trying to get some help here. I am starting to feel like whats the point of going if I am distracted all the time. After reading some comments on this thread I am quite frankly afraid to go to my Bishop now.

[pam]

After reading some comments on this thread I am quite frankly afraid to go to my Bishop now.

Don't be afraid to go speak to your Bishop. He may not even be aware there is a problem. Or he might and not sure how to solve it. Perhaps even having a couple of suggestions for possible solutions with you when you speak to him would help as well.

[lost87]

Going to your bishop with suggestions like Pam talked about is a great idea! He has a lot on his plate and probably isn't even remotely aware of the situation. Here is one idea that i saw in a ward I visited in Russia..

- headsets....it may be a little expensive to get started, but one ward I was in had a headsets for the non-english speaking individuals to use...one bilingual person would sit in the back of the meeting and whisper the translation of all that was being said into the mic, which would then be transmitted to everyone wearing a headset....it worked great! Also, you couldn't even hear the whispering of the translator so it wasn't at all distracting. This would be a piece of cake to implement in sacrament meeting if your ward or stake could fit it in the budget, however it would be a little more difficult once everyone separated into classes.

-another idea is to change the teaching style of classroom lessons. A lot of times relief society/sunday school classes consist of one person standing infront of all others and teaching, thats great if everyone can understand, but causes issues if such isn't the case. What if on occasion lessons became more of a group discussion (i've found that these often provide the most learning anyway!) divide the class so that those who spoke spanish could work together and discuss a topic and similarly with those who spoke english, then have a spokesperson in each group (bilingual) for the spanish group who could then relay the information gleened in group conversation. granted this isn't something that would work for every lesson, but maybe 10 or so minutes could be divided this way to make everyone feel like they were contributing?

- Finally, a more long term solution would be finding people willing to conduct a weekly english class teaching gospel terms...it would take a while to see results, but church words aren't often used in everyday language so they are often the last to be learned by a new english speaker, specifically addressing them for an hour each week could significantly speed that process up and eventually break down the language barrier and difficulties your ward is experiencing.

Those are just a few ideas, and its possible that none would work in your ward, but if you take it to the bishop and the Lord and sincerely look for the best solution to help everyone out then i am sure you'll be able to work it all out.

[lost87]

I am sorry btw if you felt as though you were being attacked. I was VERY put off by the comment of the church "aiding and abetting criminals" and it really got my blood boiling. Too many people assume that if someone is a different color or speak a different language then they are here illegally and as a result there are way too many good and honest people being treated like scum. It just breaks my heart...and really kinda infuriates me that these people who are probably already having a very difficult time adjusting to the new ward are seen by others within the ward as "criminals".

[pam]

We had the headsets in my ward growing up in the chapel. The first few rows of pews in the front had jacks and those that needed the interpretation could use those.

[Vanhin]

As far as the illegal alien things goes, your bishop may agree with you... I know plenty of people in the Church who do. You just happen to get a sampling of those who don't agree.

All are invited to come unto Christ, and to enter the kingdom of heaven, but coming in through the "gate" and not some other way, is a principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

At the same time, even though the Church and our doctrine teaches that we believe in being subject to "kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law", it doesn't mean we shouldn't minister to criminals, or heaven forbid "sinners". Having law breakers, and sinners at church should not surprise you. :) Especially if you see me there.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Snow]

I'm not sure why this thread ended up in attack-mode.

I don't think it is very hard to understand.

People dislike things that appear rooted in bigotry or elitism. I don't know whether the OP has racist or elitist tendencies but it's easy to read them into the original post.

I myself live in a ward that over the past ten years has developed a fair hispanic attendance. Sometimes it annoys me (of course just about anything annoys me), but instead of griping about it, I consider whether or not my intentions are pure.

[pam]

Sometimes it annoys me (of course just about anything annoys me),

Really Snow..I would have never figured that out about you. lol

[RachelleDrew]

I understand the not be able to hear the lessons thing. We've got some sisters in our branch with young babies....It can be upsetting to not be able to hear what is being spoken about due to their crying. There are no speakers in our hallways or foyer, so the ONLY way to hear the talks on Sunday is in the chapel.

It gets aggravating at times, but then you have to realize "at least these sisters are HERE and have a desire to learn the gospel". I want my brothers and sisters to have a chance at the celestial kingdom no matter what inconvenience it may be to me. I agree that you should talk to your bishop about it, because there may be some sort of compromise that will work for everyone.

As for the criminality thing, it's kind of irrelevant unless the person is charged with a violent crime like rape or murder. I've been in wards with members who were drug users, and it was common knowledge of such. However, even though I was a little hesitant around these members, I tried my best to love them and show them compassion. The church and gospel is for EVERYONE, not just the law-abiding. You can show a lawbreaking person compassion and love without enabling, but I digress.

I'm sorry if some of our members came across as judging you, but to be fair that's kind of the impression you left on a lot of us from your initial post. Perhaps this was just a case of a bad start? Because I can promise you that Pam, Wingnut and Snow are all very nice people who aren't trying to put you down or make you feel bad. They just have a perspective on this situation that is different than yours, and they are trying to help you see how they view the situation as a third party with no previous knowledge of the situation. That type of perspective is invaluable in situations like these, where everyone involved has a personal stake in the outcome. Perhaps if you take a bit back up, and to re-read what they've said you may find something helpful or useful to your specific problem.

We'd sure love it if you stayed around and we all just started over. I hope this situation is resolved in the best interest of everyone at your ward. It doesn't have to be miserable for anyone. : )

Edited December 14, 2009 by RachelleDrew

[deals_dog]

You make some interesting points. first is that you find that it is distracting that you are having an interpreter who is speaking as the lesson is proceeding, I can understand that would take a bit of getting used to and maybe a bit of a problem. I feel that it would be just as distracting for those who are Spanish speaking as well would it not? Maybe have a chat with your Sunday School president about this if it is bothering you. Then you are worried about being labeled racist. Well don't worry about that too much because if you are honest most people are until they get to know each other and really understand that we think a little differently to one another and that different cultures do things that may make one feel a little uncomfortable. Get to know your Hispanic brothers and sisters, show them how much you care and love them. It does take time for people to gain confidence in speaking a new language and it is quite a challenge for your Hispanic church members who are now feeling a little uncomfortable about being in a integrated ward. Learn some spanish yourself. Have fun

[Wingnut]

I can promise you that Pam, Wingnut and Snow are all very nice people who aren't trying to put you down or make you feel bad. They just have a perspective on this situation that is different than yours, and they are trying to help you see how they view the situation as a third party with no previous knowledge of the situation.

Thanks for the plug and the goodwill, but I haven't actually said anything on this thread up until now. I've thanked a lot of the posts here though -- lots of Pam's and Snow's.

You are right though, Rachelle -- I have a different perspective on the matter. I served a Spanish-speaking mission in California. I met a lot of illegal immigrants, primarily migrant farm workers. They are amazing people. They are the remnant of the Lamanites, of whom it was prophesied would blossom as a rose.

I've had to provide translation at Church before, both from English to Spanish and (in the case of a former missionary returning to visit a Spanish branch with his English speaking parents) from Spanish to English. Was it distracting? It sure was for me. By the time I walked out of Relief Society that day, I couldn't have told you what the lesson was on, even though I'd repeated it nearly verbatim. Did I get anything out of being there that week, or was it a total waste? It was very edifying for me. It was a unique experience for that missionary's mother to be able to participate with the Spanish branch sisters in their meeting. She played the piano for them that day, too.

Many of the Spanish-speaking members that the OP refers to are likely young in the Gospel and in their testimonies. They find greater fellowship and comfort in the language branches, but they also find great strength, growth, and integration in the English wards.

On illegal immigration itself: it has been my experience that a large portion of those Latinos that come to the United States illegally do so at personal risk and cost, and they have specific reasons for doing so. You think the economy is bad here? It's always been worse in Mexico, and it always will be. Many of those who come here do not for themselves, but because they know they can earn more money for their family here. They come, and sometimes they stay for years, and sometimes they work a season in the fields and go home again, only to return the following year. They have families back home, children that don't know them, and so much of the money earned here goes back there, to provide a better life. It's not a selfish thing, and it's not a "work the system" thing. Speaking of "the system," how many Americans do you know who are willing to work 12 hours a day in the hot sun, six or more days a week, carrying 50 pound bags of oranges (or whatever) on their shoulders all day, for an entire harvesting season, all for meager pay?

It has also been my experience that even though the Church is growing rapidly in Mexico and the rest of Latin America, that many of those who come to the United States do so in order to find the Gospel (though they do not know it at the time). They are fulfilling prophecies of old. It's true that there are more operating temples in Mexico that in any other country besides the USA, but it's a different ballgame. Mexico is very heavily steeped in Catholic tradition, and it's hard to break that. Much of the leadership on local levels is still immature in their testimonies and understanding of the Gospel, still having Catholic idols in their homes. If a white person goes to Mexico and speaks to a Mexican in Spanish, it's not that big a deal. If a Mexican comes to the USA, and a white person speaks to them in Spanish, that's a bigger deal. It's a demonstration of outreach, and that in and of itself opens doors.

The Church is not aiding and abetting criminals by providing translation of religious services to them. The Church did not help them cross borders or obtain work here. The Church extends fellowship and spiritual edification.

I recognize that my thoughts here are a little scattered, and I apologize for that. It's taken awhile to sort things out, and I've gone back and forth between this and other windows, so I've been a little distracted.

[Hemidakota]

Excellent posting Wingnut!

[pam]

Thank you Wingers. I may be a bit biased in my thoughts and feelings. Having grown up in an area that had such a high Latino population and getting to know them, I have such a love for these brothers and sisters that I find myself very much on the defensive at times when something I perceive as negative is said.

The members of my ward that spoke Spanish were some of the most humble, hard working, loving people I think I have ever met. I think sometimes we get in a stereotype mode which is unfair to the vast majority. Now that is not directed to the OP but meant in general. I see it amongst members and non members alike.

As you stated, many of those had left family back in Mexico to come to the US in an attempt to better themselves. Many were homesick for those family members as well as a community that was familiar to them. What I saw was a people that just wanted to do the best they can and be accepted by other people that had the same beliefs in the gospel. Even if they couldn't speak the same language.

Edited December 14, 2009 by pam