Stealing isn't breaking commandments

[beefche]

Interesting view. Linky lou

[Guest mormonmusic]

Wow! This is a classic case of using one's position of authority in the wrong way. My response to this is "where is this organization's plan for helping the poor?". If people are truly poor, then they should be approaching welfare programs administered by their church so they make ends meet, stay out of prison, and let the contributing members to their fund obey the commandment to care for the poor and needy.

This man is shifting the onus of helping the poor to big business, to the detriment of society.

I wonder, is it a crime to preach that people should break the law, without actually breaking the law yourself?

[LDSVALLEY]

The joys of not being accountable to the Lord for what advice we give.

Oh wait.....we are.

My thinking on this is if we steal from the rich to give to the poor and ignore the debate on it being stealing or not the Lord still would not be pleased.

If we take from the rich and give what they had to the poor then we are denying them their agency to do what they would choose with what the Lord has helped them obtain. That would be the Law of Satan not God.

Besides it is stealing we just like to justify things. What is the greater good for one is not for another, it is up to the Lord to decide what is morally correct and what is not.

[LDSVALLEY]

I wonder, is it a crime to preach that people should break the law, without actually breaking the law yourself?

From what happened to a school friend of mine yes! He helped two youth figure out how to rob a government institution. He went to jail as an accessory without having been involved in the actual crime. Mind you they were 15 and he 17 so in part it was because they were classed as minors.

[Wingnut]

What a crock.

[Mahone]

From what happened to a school friend of mine yes! He helped two youth figure out how to rob a government institution. He went to jail as an accessory without having been involved in the actual crime. Mind you they were 15 and he 17 so in part it was because they were classed as minors.

Was he an unwitting accessory? Or did he have a fair idea they were actually going to do it? Things like that are very hard to prove/disprove, short of a confession.

[LDSVALLEY]

Was he an unwitting accessory? Or did he have a fair idea they were actually going to do it? Things like that are very hard to prove/disprove, short of a confession.

He knew they were going to do it, he helped them plan it out. Not sure how they proved it. My guess is he drew them diagrams and they were caught with them. Knowing him, his name was on it or something. He got 9 months in min sec. served 6.

[Just_A_Guy]

Here is the Daily Mail piece from which the Fox News report is drawn.

I don't think he's saying it doesn't break commandments; I think he's just saying it's a better option than prostitution or suicide (or, presumably, starving to death).

It is interesting that this comes out of a cleric in a nation with a fairly well-developed social safety net. Wasn't social welfare supposed to make it so that people didn't have to make such Jean Valjean-esque choices anymore?

[beefche]

Here is the Daily Mail piece from which the Fox News report is drawn.

I don't think he's saying it doesn't break commandments; I think he's just saying it's a better option than prostitution or suicide (or, presumably, starving to death).

It is interesting that this comes out of a cleric in a nation with a fairly well-developed social safety net. Wasn't social welfare supposed to make it so that people didn't have to make such Jean Valjean-esque choices anymore?

And why isn't he preaching to feed the poor, clothe the naked? Instead of saying that is the only option for the poor, why isn't he saying that should never be an option for the poor when those in this congregation could help? I think it was a poor decision on his part to preach about something like this even if it wasn't a planned sermon.

[Just_A_Guy]

And why isn't he preaching to feed the poor, clothe the naked? Instead of saying that is the only option for the poor, why isn't he saying that should never be an option for the poor when those in this congregation could help?

I dunno. For all we know, his congregation is an urban area where no one (or very few people) are capable of giving that kind of aid. Maybe it's a gimmick to shame those in his congregation who do have the means, to open their pockets a bit more. Or maybe it was just a moment of sheer dumbness.

No matter how you slice it, I don't see why Fox News was giving this story top billing on their website.

[beefche]

No matter how you slice it, I don't see why Fox News was giving this story top billing on their website.

JAG, that's a whole 'nother issue. There are a lot of headlines they have that I think are just dumb.

[Moksha]

And why isn't he preaching to feed the poor, clothe the naked? Instead of saying that is the only option for the poor, why isn't he saying that should never be an option for the poor when those in this congregation could help? I think it was a poor decision on his part to preach about something like this even if it wasn't a planned sermon.

He may have come to the conclusion that a sermon will not fill an empty belly. While he didn't think it was a good thing to do, he thought it might be necessary.

I am wondering if his purpose was to advocate for the poor in his parish by calling attention to their needs, rather than wanting a string of shoplifting crimes and possible criminal charges for his parishoners. It takes the outrageous to draw media attention.

[Mahone]

Here is the Daily Mail piece from which the Fox News report is drawn.

Ah-ha... say no more. The daily mail aren't exactly known for their thoughtful, deep and carefully written articles :)

Having said that, I also suspect Rev Tim Jones knew exactly what he was saying, and that the media would get grasp of it. This isn't the first time he has been in the media for being controversial, and whatever his end game was, I'm pretty sure having this article published was part of it.

[stormwitch]

I dare not judge him as I don't know whether all this was meant literary or as a means to make people think.

But anyways, there are more options... like soup kitchens, welfare and other institutions operated by churches and welfare institutions. And before stealing comes always asking for things... begging, even if this is not popular either. Stealing might appear less evil than robbery or prostitution, but it is still wrong.

[NeuroTypical]

God's love for the poor and despised outweighs the property rights of the rich

I'd love to see his scriptural foundation for that little gem.

[MichaelCraig]

I saw a bumper sticker last week that was a little different. It said, "why do people kill people, who kill people, to show others that killing people...is wrong?"

[Wingnut]

I saw a bumper sticker last week that was a little different. It said, "why do people kill people, who kill people, to show others that killing people...is wrong?"

Thank you, Jack Ruby.

[theoriginalavatar]

Interesting view. Linky lou

Choosing the lesser of two (or several) sins is always a fun time!

It brings to mind a story I heard about J. Golden Kimball that I am sure many of you have probably heard.

It is said that he was sitting in Denny's one day (the one on 4th South in SLC, I believe) drinking his coffee as he was known to do when he noticed a man on the other side of the room staring at him. J. did his best to avoid eye contact with the man. Eventually, the man stood up and walked over to where the general authority sat.

"Aren't you J. Golden Kimball?" the man asked.

J. sighed and responded, "Yes."

The stranger went on. "And aren't you a member of the Seventy?"

"Yes."

"And isn't that coffee you're driking?!" said the man in anger.

"Yes."

"I'd rather commit adultery than drink coffee!" the man yelled.

J. looked up at him and replied, "Hell, who wouldn't?!"

[Wingnut]

Choosing the lesser of two (or several) sins is always a fun time!

It brings to mind a story I heard about J. Golden Kimball that I am sure many of you have probably heard.

It is said that he was sitting in Denny's one day (the one on 4th South in SLC, I believe) drinking his coffee as he was known to do when he noticed a man on the other side of the room staring at him. J. did his best to avoid eye contact with the man. Eventually, the man stood up and walked over to where the general authority sat.

"Aren't you J. Golden Kimball?" the man asked.

J. sighed and responded, "Yes."

The stranger went on. "And aren't you a member of the Seventy?"

"Yes."

"And isn't that coffee you're driking?!" said the man in anger.

"Yes."

"I'd rather commit adultery than drink coffee!" the man yelled.

J. looked up at him and replied, "Hell, who wouldn't?!"

If that story is true, your telling of it is inaccurate, being that J. Golden Kimball died in 1938, and Denny's wasn't founded until 1953.

[john doe]

If that story is true, your telling of it is inaccurate, being that J. Golden Kimball died in 1938, and Denny's wasn't founded until 1953.

I wondered about that when I read it.

[theoriginalavatar]

If that story is true, your telling of it is inaccurate, being that J. Golden Kimball died in 1938, and Denny's wasn't founded until 1953.

Go with the inaccurate telling on my part! It came from a distant memory (from my mission actually). Someone gave me a book of stories from the life of J. Golden Kimball, and that was one of them.

[theoriginalavatar]

I googled it, and it brought up another link:

scribble: J. Golden Kimball "The Swearing Apostle"

This link tells a different version of the story, but with the same result. Whether or not the event actually took place or was simply another of the church's many tales of folklore, I cannot say for sure. Anyway, I thought it was funny.

[Vort]

Choosing the lesser of two (or several) sins is always a fun time!

It brings to mind a story I heard about J. Golden Kimball that I am sure many of you have probably heard.

It is said that he was sitting in Denny's one day (the one on 4th South in SLC, I believe) drinking his coffee as he was known to do when he noticed a man on the other side of the room staring at him. J. did his best to avoid eye contact with the man. Eventually, the man stood up and walked over to where the general authority sat.

"Aren't you J. Golden Kimball?" the man asked.

J. sighed and responded, "Yes."

The stranger went on. "And aren't you a member of the Seventy?"

"Yes."

"And isn't that coffee you're driking?!" said the man in anger.

"Yes."

"I'd rather commit adultery than drink coffee!" the man yelled.

J. looked up at him and replied, "Hell, who wouldn't?!"

Awesome story. Reminds me of Pam's joke from a few weeks back.

[theoriginalavatar]

Awesome story. Reminds me of Pam's joke from a few weeks back.

Alas, I did not exist a few weeks back (at least on the site), or maybe I just missed her joke....

[Vort]

Alas, I did not exist a few weeks back (at least on the site), or maybe I just missed her joke....

Something like this (forgive me if my inexact retelling slaughters the joke):

A missionary returning from his service is seated by an Irish gentleman. During the flight, the stewardess asks the Irishman if he would like a drink, and he orders a whiskey. The stewardess hands the Irishman his drink and asks the missionary if he would like a drink, too. The missionary wrinkles his nose and says, "I'd rather fornicate with the head stewardess than drink that vile sauce!" Whereupon the Irishman hands his drink back and says, "Me, too. I didn't know we had the choice."