Law of chastity - what is breaking it?

[EQ_Guy]

I've searched for this, but didn't find anything. This is a serious question and do NOT want to get in trouble over asking this. I know a member that's a convert and has a big past as far as word of wisdom and chastity. She has had lots of "partners" and this year decided to put all of that behind her and fully commit? herself to church. She began Temple prep classes and went thru the Temple just under 2 months ago. She's been to the Temple twice and the last time she went a few days later she performed a certain sex act on a guy the she knows, but says she's repented of it herself and doesn't need to discuss it with her bishop. I told her that what she did does need to be shared with her bishop.

MY QUESTION: Is oral sex considered breaking the law of chastity? This seems like a no-brainer to me, but she told me, "I know some men in church that say anything other than vaginal and anal is 'fair game.'" That sounds totally obsurd to me. I searched for this on LDS.org, but nothing came up.

She said she refused to let the guy touch her under her garments, that's good, but I still think what she did is wrong.

She also said I was judging her, but I'm not, I've only told her that I think she can't put this behind her without talking about this with her bishop.

EDIT: I appreciate these great replies from everyone!

EDIT, Christmas Day update. Well below is what I found in my mailbox from her - ENJOY.

"I am offended that you find it necessary to lecture me on the rights and wrongs of the church. All of those articles and things that you attached as PROOF to back up your "opinion" are WAY OVER THE TOP> I know somewhere in your mind you believe you are being helpful...or concerned .. But from where I stood...opening lmultiple etters with paragraph after paragraph of things about sex....appears that you are obsessed with this issue.... I think it only fair to let you tell you. I am as aware as YOU are about the law of Chastity and what it involves...I do not owe you an explaination of how I am handling what I did or didn't do..Frankly it is NONE OF YOUR CONCERN. And I would thank you not to give it another thought!!! And it you can't help yourself from Thinking about it...please refrain from discussing it with ME.

I said "have a nice life" because I find your medalling, invasive, assuming, self righteous stand as completely unwarranted and unacceptable. I have been to the Temple. I take my vows and covenants VERY SERIOUSLY...Rest assured I will do what is necessary to remain in good graces with my church and my God....and PLEASE do not mention this issue in any way, ever again! THANK YOU"

Edited December 25, 2009 by EQ_Guy
Christmas update

[pam]

Yes that's breaking the law of chastity.

[EQ_Guy]

Yes that's breaking the law of chastity.

Thought so. If someone told you they did what this lady did, what would you tell them as far as how to handle it?

[beefche]

She needs to go to the Bishop and not only discuss her actions, but also discuss who these "men in the church who say anything other than anal or vaginal" is fair game.

[FunkyTown]

I had a great talk among the YSA last year about this very thing, so it seems that some people want to justify their actions.

The stake president giving the talk said: "And I have heard the question: Is oral sex breaking the law of chastity? To that, I say: Look at the name. The word sex is right in there. It clearly is a breach of the law of chastity."

[jameslentz]

From LDS.org Gospel Topics: Chastity

If we are single and dating, always treat our date with respect. Those who are dating must never treat their date as an object to be used for lustful desires. They should carefully plan positive and constructive activities so that they are not left alone without anything to do. They should stay in areas of safety where they can easily control themselves. They should not participate in conversations or activities that arouse sexual feelings, such as passionate kissing, lying with or on top of another person, or touching the private, sacred parts of another person's body, with or without clothing.

...emphasis added by me...

There are more references to talks by GA's on the subject but here is one i always remember:

Serious Questions Serious Answers - Richard G Scott

I believe that the Law of Chastity is one of those things that we all can agree is under constant attack by the adversary. It is important that those who struggle with it stay on guard at all times and are honest with themselves and with the Lord. Rationalizing sin will not make it ok on the day of judgment. Besides if she has been to the temple she knows how serious Chastity is.

My heart goes out to her because there is nothing easy about controlling this if it is a persons weakness. But the Lord make your weak things strong.

I hope this helps.

Edited December 24, 2009 by jameslentz
adding emphasis

[john doe]

I believe the For The Strength of Youth pamphlet states it pretty clearly. And yes, it applies to adults too.

[skippy740]

Something to think about:

The covenants we make in the temple include the law of chastity. It used to be "intercourse" with anyone but your lawfully wedded husband or wife. It is now "sexual relations".

I wonder how well she paid attention?

[EQ_Guy]

I believe the For The Strength of Youth pamphlet states it pretty clearly. And yes, it applies to adults too.

Yup, my bishop gave me that pamphlet a couple months ago and I've read it cover to cover.

[Vanhin]

Something to think about:

The covenants we make in the temple include the law of chastity. It used to be "intercourse" with anyone but your lawfully wedded husband or wife. It is now "sexual relations".

I wonder how well she paid attention?

Exactly. I was going to say that too.

Vanhin

[Dravin]

She said she refused to let the guy touch her under her garments, that's good, but I still think what she did is wrong.

Last I checked one half of the equation for oral sex (and both for anal) rests under what would/should be covered by the garments. So by her own metric she should rule those out as inappropriate (and ran screaming to the hills at having a Member boyfriend suggest such IMHO). Actually, other than dirty talk I'm having a hard time thinking of something that violates the law of chastity that doesn't include some sort of contact (and contact can be made with something other than hands) with something that should be covered by garments. Of course I'm including contact with things covered by garments and as such including contact through clothing which I admit some don't.

Go grope a child and tell the cops, "But it was through the clothes! There was nothing inappropriate!" I doubt they'll buy it.

P.S. I'm not stating that all contact that meets the criteria of contacting something that is/should be covered by the garment is a violation of the law of chastity. Just think of a hug, lots of contact between parts that are covered and it isn't necessarily a violation of the Law of Chastity. I just can't think of one that is a violation and doesn't meet the criteria.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Dravin

[mnn727]

MY QUESTION: Is oral sex considered breaking the law of chastity? !

Outside of marriage -yes its against the law of chastity,

Inside of marriage - no it's not

I suggest you hand her the "For the Strength of Youth" booklet

Edited December 24, 2009 by mnn727

[Dravin]

I suggest you hand her the "For the Strenght of Youth" booklet

But then he's judging her, "oh noes!"

Actually I kinda wonder were all this we can't render judgement on behavior nonsense came from. We most certainly can, and indeed must. What we can't do is render final judgement (We've not the authority, at least I don't) or pass judgement on the inherent worth of people, then we get into trouble.

But you can't tell somebody, "Uh, you shouldn't be doing that."? Poppycock.

[jmcic]

i agree with everyone her she needs to speak to her bishop but it is something she needs to do you need to be gentle about this and just love her as a sister. i know from experience that she may know that she has to speak to the bishop and she may just be terrified i know i was when i had a small problem i had to discuss with him but what she needs to understand is that he is not there to judge her but to help her. he will be stern but loving and help her to truly repent the repenance process is hard but its amazing how much better you feel after you speak to your bishop

[bytor2112]

I think she is not being "honest" and I am being kind. She obviously knows better and my guess is that she shouldn't have been allowed to go to the Temple and probably won't be going back for a very long time.....that is if she sees her Bishop. She should and quickly........

[AnonymousConvert]

This is kind of off topic I know, but you seem to have very good answers. I'm going to be baptized in the next few weeks, I'm 17 and I have already done IT. How does this affect my Law of Chastity. I really don't feel comfortable telling my Bishop because he is also the father of my future girlfriend. She is almost 16 and so she cannot date yet. So what do I tell the Elders? Does my Baptism forgive me for my past sin of IT? It was a bad time in my life and I pray for forgiveness often but I am still curious how this affects the Law of Chastity.

Found this on Mormon.org

Immersion is symbolic of the death of a person’s sinful life and the rebirth into a spiritual life, dedicated to the service of God and His children. It is also symbolic of death and resurrection. (See Romans 6:3-6) Little children are redeemed through the mercy of Jesus Christ. They are “alive in Christ” and cannot sin. They do not need baptism until they understand the difference between right and wrong. The Lord has revealed that children should be baptized at eight years of age. (See Book of Mormon, Moroni 8:8-24; Doctrine and Covenants 29:46-47, 68:27)

And I am doing this to become a better person. I'm on my way to this better path and I do regret my past sins.

Edited July 4, 2011 by AnonymousConvert
More info

[LDSJewess]

I've searched for this, but didn't find anything. This is a serious question and do NOT want to get in trouble over asking this. I know a member that's a convert and has a big past as far as word of wisdom and chastity. She has had lots of "partners" and this year decided to put all of that behind her and fully commit? herself to church. She began Temple prep classes and went thru the Temple just under 2 months ago. She's been to the Temple twice and the last time she went a few days later she performed a certain sex act on a guy the she knows, but says she's repented of it herself and doesn't need to discuss it with her bishop. I told her that what she did does need to be shared with her bishop.

MY QUESTION: Is oral sex considered breaking the law of chastity? This seems like a no-brainer to me, but she told me, "I know some men in church that say anything other than vaginal and anal is 'fair game.'" That sounds totally obsurd to me. I searched for this on LDS.org, but nothing came up.

She said she refused to let the guy touch her under her garments, that's good, but I still think what she did is wrong.

She also said I was judging her, but I'm not, I've only told her that I think she can't put this behind her without talking about this with her bishop.

EDIT: I appreciate these great replies from everyone!

EDIT, Christmas Day update. Well below is what I found in my mailbox from her - ENJOY.

"I am offended that you find it necessary to lecture me on the rights and wrongs of the church. All of those articles and things that you attached as PROOF to back up your "opinion" are WAY OVER THE TOP> I know somewhere in your mind you believe you are being helpful...or concerned .. But from where I stood...opening lmultiple etters with paragraph after paragraph of things about sex....appears that you are obsessed with this issue.... I think it only fair to let you tell you. I am as aware as YOU are about the law of Chastity and what it involves...I do not owe you an explaination of how I am handling what I did or didn't do..Frankly it is NONE OF YOUR CONCERN. And I would thank you not to give it another thought!!! And it you can't help yourself from Thinking about it...please refrain from discussing it with ME.

I said "have a nice life" because I find your medalling, invasive, assuming, self righteous stand as completely unwarranted and unacceptable. I have been to the Temple. I take my vows and covenants VERY SERIOUSLY...Rest assured I will do what is necessary to remain in good graces with my church and my God....and PLEASE do not mention this issue in any way, ever again! THANK YOU"

Forgive me for sounding judgemental here, but I have a very hard time understanding why a 42 year old man (according to your profile), would need to ask if oral sex was breaking the law of chastity. If someone your age does not know the answeer to that question, then you are the one that needs to talk to your bishop for advice on such things.

Sorry if I am wrong but so often on the internet people lie their age on their profile and it winds up being a VERY young person (sometimes under age) asking questions that middle aged adults would not ask because they know the answer.

As for the "member" that you know that has apparently told you such intimate details of your life....why would she discuss such things with another member.

I have lived a lot of life and I don't know anyone in my ward or even my family that so openly discusses their intimate activities.

I believe that a person's intimate relationships should remain in the bedroom behind closed doors and are no one's business except the couple involved.And if one or both of the people involved feel guilt, shame or the need to speak with church authorities, then that is between THEM and no one else.

If someone ever approached me with such personal information I would tell them if they had feelings of remorse to get counseling or discuss it with a church authority. I would never want to duscuss these things with anyone, and I certainly would not gossip about another personals personal life, no less take it to an internet message board. And copying and pasting anyones personal email on a public message board is also very wrong.

Edited July 4, 2011 by LDSJewess

[Just_A_Guy]

This is kind of off topic I know, but you seem to have very good answers. I'm going to be baptized in the next few weeks, I'm 17 and I have already done IT. How does this affect my Law of Chastity. I really don't feel comfortable telling my Bishop because he is also the father of my future girlfriend. She is almost 16 and so she cannot date yet. So what do I tell the Elders? Does my Baptism forgive me for my past sin of IT? It was a bad time in my life and I pray for forgiveness often but I am still curious how this affects the Law of Chastity.

Found this on Mormon.org

Immersion is symbolic of the death of a person’s sinful life and the rebirth into a spiritual life, dedicated to the service of God and His children. It is also symbolic of death and resurrection. (See Romans 6:3-6) Little children are redeemed through the mercy of Jesus Christ. They are “alive in Christ” and cannot sin. They do not need baptism until they understand the difference between right and wrong. The Lord has revealed that children should be baptized at eight years of age. (See Book of Mormon, Moroni 8:8-24; Doctrine and Covenants 29:46-47, 68:27)

And I am doing this to become a better person. I'm on my way to this better path and I do regret my past sins.

I don't think things you've done before your baptism need to be confessed to your bishop; it will probably be enough to tell the elder performing your baptismal interview that you have not always kept the LOC but are willing to commit to doing so from here on out.

Now, that said, and from a more practical standpoint: I think it's generally a bad idea to get into serious relationships prior to being college-age.

[Backroads]

This is kind of off topic I know, but you seem to have very good answers. I'm going to be baptized in the next few weeks, I'm 17 and I have already done IT. How does this affect my Law of Chastity. I really don't feel comfortable telling my Bishop because he is also the father of my future girlfriend. She is almost 16 and so she cannot date yet. So what do I tell the Elders? Does my Baptism forgive me for my past sin of IT? It was a bad time in my life and I pray for forgiveness often but I am still curious how this affects the Law of Chastity.

Found this on Mormon.org

Immersion is symbolic of the death of a person’s sinful life and the rebirth into a spiritual life, dedicated to the service of God and His children. It is also symbolic of death and resurrection. (See Romans 6:3-6) Little children are redeemed through the mercy of Jesus Christ. They are “alive in Christ” and cannot sin. They do not need baptism until they understand the difference between right and wrong. The Lord has revealed that children should be baptized at eight years of age. (See Book of Mormon, Moroni 8:8-24; Doctrine and Covenants 29:46-47, 68:27)

And I am doing this to become a better person. I'm on my way to this better path and I do regret my past sins.

When you are baptized, all your sins will be washed away. I'm not sure on the technalicaties if you're supposed to confess this, but my heart tells me that it's a good idea. You're working toward having your sins washed away, why not work on this? Take care of it, get baptized, and start fresh with the Law of Chastity.

OP:

Yes, oral sex before marriage is breaking the law of chastity.

If it's sexual, and you're not married to the person, consider the law broken.

[pam]

Thread is closed. This is an exellent example of people replying directly to an OP who posted in 2009 and hasn't been back in almost a year.