"R" rated movies

[BenRaines]

For those who don't know if you pay your tithing in stock, it can be done, as soon as it hits the church account it is sold. Not sure of the stock portfolio of the church but I do know that shares transferred to the church are immediately liquidated.

Ben Raines

[Guest]

For those that still think investing in the stock market isn't gambling, check this out: www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/columnist/krantz/20

That link doesn't work.

But, here is a link that explains to you why investing is not gambling.

The 5 Biggest Stock Market Myths

In summary - if you think investing in a stock market is gambling, then you should also think that opening a restaurant is gambling - or starting a company is gambling. Because, your money in stock is nothing more than a claim of ownership to a company - instead of coming up with $300,000 to open up your own McDonald's, you can put up $65 to own a piece of it by buying one MCD stock - currently worth around $65. And just like the franchise owner - you can lose money or earn money depending on how good your McDonald's is making those burgers.

Now, if you believe that a McDonald's franchise owner is gambling when he opened up his restaurant, then, we probably just have a "semantics" difference.

In this case, I want to know if you believe that opening up a McDonald's franchise is against Church principles because you consider it gambling.

[Wingnut]

I vote for the thread to be closed.

[Carl62]

In this case, I want to know if you believe that opening up a McDonald's franchise is against Church principles because you consider it gambling.

I honestly wouldn't rule out that it is. It just may be considered a different form of gambling. I guess every individual in the church has to decide whether or not what the church learders have said falls under this category.

[Wingnut]

Oh please, that's not gambling. It's a business venture. Gambling is trying to get something for nothing. It's hardly arguable that starting your own business or opening your own franchise requires "nothing" on your part.

[Carl62]

Everybody thinks they are acting "intelligently" in regards to the stock market or anything related until they lose. Bernie Madoff's victims I'm sure thought they were acting intelligently until they lost everything. Oh but that's right, as long as they were thinking intelligently about there decision, then it's not considered gambling. Got it.

[pam]

I would advise no one taking a job either. You are gambling that the business will still be able to have you in their employment a year from now.

[Carl62]

Gambling is trying to get something for nothing.

You mean people don't use money when they play the slot machines? Wow, that's news to me!

[Carl62]

I would advise no one taking a job either. You are gambling that the business will still be able to have you in their employment a year from now.

If you're having to put money into the company before they hire you, then yeah, I wouldn't take that job either.

[Wingnut]

You mean people don't use money when they play the slot machines? Wow, that's news to me!

People gamble expecting a huge return on a miniscule startup. That's getting something for "nothing." If you care to argue the semantics further, I suggest you read what I've previously posted from the Church website on the matter:

Gambling is motivated by a desire to get something for nothing. This desire is spiritually destructive. It leads participants away from the Savior's teachings of love and service and toward the selfishness of the adversary. It undermines the virtues of work and thrift and the desire to give honest effort in all we do.

Source

[Connie]

Isn't this thread supposed to be about R-rated movies? It's gotten pretty far off topic.

[MeIRL]

Would I show Saving Private Ryan in a high school history class? ABSOLUTLEY!!

Would I show the unedited theater version of The Goonies to the same aged kids? No way!

If you showed my high-school child an R-rated movie without my consent, I would actively seek to have you fired. I would complain to the principal and the school board and would hire a lawyer, threatening to sue unless you were terminated.

So if you really are a high school teacher, remember there may be parents like me among the guardians of your students.

[Wingnut]

Isn't this thread supposed to be about R-rated movies? It's gotten pretty far off topic.

Agreed. Hence the:

I vote for the thread to be closed.

[MeIRL]

The same can be said of R-rated movies. The First Presidency and General Authorities have consistently counseled against watching them, and there has not been any indication of that counsel changing.

I'd like to call for sources here, because I've heard very little counsel on the subject of the ratings of movies.

Explicit, blunt instruction given by Ezra Taft Benson, the prophet and Church president at the time:

Don’t see R-rated movies or vulgar videos or participate in any entertainment that is immoral, suggestive, or pornographic.

Here is another reference:

Again I say, leave it alone. Turn it off, walk away from it, burn it, erase it, destroy it. I know it is hard counsel we give when we say movies that are R-rated, and many with PG-13 ratings, are produced by satanic influences.

[Wisc]

If you showed my high-school child an R-rated movie without my consent, I would actively seek to have you fired. I would complain to the principal and the school board and would hire a lawyer, threatening to sue unless you were terminated.

So if you really are a high school teacher, remember there may be parents like me among the guardians of your students.

You live in a very literal world don't you MeIRL? Metaphor has no meaning for you. It was a "What if" example. And about you being a "parents like me" kinda parent..., well, lets just take a look at how that's worked out for "parents like you" in the past shall we?

1. Sex education classes with highly vulgar and explicit images

2. Contraceptives available on campus

3. No prayer in schools unless student initiated and purely student participated

(redundant to keep listing)

IF R rated movies are shown the ISD would require a consent form to be signed... IF your kid actually viewed the movie its because YOU'd have given consent.... there goes your law suit.

Whats also really sad is that you think you know better than all the other parent, the teacher, the principal, and even the school board. Because if they all decided that the teacher shouldnt lose their job over the issue then you'd try to take the matter to a court of law. Any chance you're the granddaughter of the Mc Donnalds hot coffie lady?

PS Im not a teacher. Only those who cant do, teach.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Wisc

[MeIRL]

You live in a very literal world don't you MeIRL? Metaphor has no meaning for you.

What does "Metaphor" mean?

well, lets just take a look at how that's worked out for "parents like you" in the past shall we?

1. Sex education classes with highly vulgar and explicit images

2. Contraceptives available on campus

3. No prayer in schools unless student initiated and purely student participated

(redundant to keep listing)

WHOOOOOSH!

That was the sound of your example sailing far over my head.

IF R rated movies are shown the ISD would require a consent form to be signed... IF your kid actually viewed the movie its because YOU'd have given consent.... there goes your law suit.

Perhaps you misread my original comment. Let me reiterate.

If you showed my high-school child an R-rated movie without my consent, I would actively seek to have you fired.

Whats also really sad is that you think you know better than all the other parent, the teacher, the principal, and even the school board. Because if they all decided that the teacher shouldnt lose their job over the issue then you'd try to take the matter to a court of law.

Yeah, I'm funny like that. The combined authority and beliefs of the principal, the superintendent, and the National Education Association still isn't enough to convince me that a bad teacher should stay. I daresay that even if the Sierra Club and the American Communist Party joined in, I still wouldn't change my opinion.

Any chance you're the granddaughter of the Mc Donnalds hot coffie lady?

You know, I have never really considered whether I am the granddaughter of that woman. I can't say for sure. I suppose I should ask my mother. Or my wife.

[CrimsonKairos]

It occurs to me that D&C Section 7 applies to this topic.

Remember how Peter and John each desired different things of Jesus? Consider how Jesus summarizes things:

Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both joy in that which ye have desired. (D&C 7:8)

The principle? Even among the apostles--righteous men all--one size does not fit all.

Perhaps a simpler generalization would be: Everyone has different capacities and needs and desires.

What many of you seem to be saying is that everyone else should not be able to find anything virtuous, lovely or praiseworthy in a movie if it is rated R.

What it comes down to is a very important nuance, a very critical difference between:

1. What offends the Spirit.

2. What makes it difficult for YOU to feel the Spirit.

Here's an example and a parallel. If I try to tell my wife how my day has been, and if our 13 month old daughter is crying or whining, my wife literally cannot focus on what I'm saying. She is so disturbed by the sound of a crying child (even if it is just whining and not hurt or hungry or tired or sad) that I cannot discuss anything important with her until the crying stops. On the other hand, I can listen to someone else talk to me if my daughter is whining/crying at the same time.

Like the apostles of old, my wife and I are just different. Not better than or worse than the other. Just different. We have different needs, desires and capacities (she can operate far better on far less sleep than I could ever think of!).

Imagine how ridiculous it would be for me to label my wife as "inconsiderate" or "weak" for NOT being able to focus on something else while our daughter is crying. Imagine how absurd it would be for my wife to label me as "thoughtless" or "unfeeling" for my BEING able to do the very thing she finds difficult.

Same thing with movies/media and the Spirit. Once you eliminate explicit examples of what offends the Spirit, what you are left with is a host of things that may or may not make it difficult for you or your neighbor to feel the Spirit.

Is the Spirit by default offended when filmmakers depict realistic battles from world history that involve men bleeding and/or dying? Perhaps, perhaps not.

Is the Spirit offended when your neighbor blasts the 1812 Overture above city-approved noise levels? Probably not.

Does having music that loud make it difficult for you to feel the Spirit or think clearly? Perhaps, it depends on who you are and what your capacities are.

It seems incredibly arrogant to me for someone to tell me what should or should not interfere with my ability to feel the Spirit. Peter made the same mistake. Why should John get power over death? Shouldn't he desire the same thing I and the 10 other apostles desired?

Can someone else derive edification or inspiration or enlightenment by watching content that has been rated "R" by other mortals? Unless you know their hearts the way the Lord does, you'd be wise to admit that you don't know and aren't sure and that, in the interests of judging righteously, you will leave their media choices between them and the Lord.

Exception: the things that obviously and clearly offend the Spirit, and by extension Jesus, and by extension the Father. A list might include:

1. Taking the Lord's name in vain.

2. Pornography in all its shades and guises.

3. Light mindedness (showing a blatant disregard for the sacred and holy)

You can submit other examples I'm sure.

The overall principle here is this: What offends YOU may not offend the Spirit or your neighbor. What offends your neighbor may or may not offend the Spirit or you.

People are different. Capacities for focus and spiritual sensitivity are different.

If you cannot focus on anything past the fact that blood is spurting from a gunshot wound in a soldier's chest as he struggles across a battlefield, then that movie is not for you and no one should make you feel stupid for saying, "I do not find this edifying."

If your neighbor can see past the graphic portrayal of one soldier's mortality and focus on the theme or symbolism behind the blood and find edification therein, then that movie may be for them and no one should make them feel stupid for saying, "I do find this edifying."

To many, violence is like a crying baby that they cannot ignore or observe and still focus on other ideas and images at the same time. That is fine, and in many cases, admirable. Heaven forbid we become too comfortable with violence or watching horrible things happen to our brothers and sisters.

To many others, violence is like a crying baby that while not desirable (who enjoys listening to a crying baby?) is not offensive in itself and may in fact accompany important lessons about morality, sin, virtue and courage.

Again, one size does not fit all.

Those of you with children, and those of you with siblings, and those of you with friends (that should cover almost all of you), are all of the important people in your life exactly the same? Do you tell the same jokes around all of them? Do you treat them all exactly the same? Of course not. Everyone is different and the Christian person focuses on the needs of the individual be they whatever they are.

Growing up, I could handle a later curfew and greater responsibility in some cases than one of my siblings because I was more interested in being obedient. My parents would have been unwise indeed to say, "Well, we should all have the same rules so everyone's curfew will be the same." That would have lead to one of two problems:

1. Punishing obedience (if I had been given the same curfew as my sibling)

2. Rewarding disobedience (if my sibling had been given my curfew)

The virtue of a democratic society can also be its greatest weakness: fair treatment does NOT equal identical treatment. Fair implies appropriate to the situation, condition and people involved. So it is with movies. Perhaps one of your children would find edification and substance in a film like, "Saving Private Ryan," while another of your children would be emotionally damaged by such portrayals of historic reality.

If we wouldn't insist that all children be the same and have the same capacities, why do we turn around and insist that all the children of Christ (reborn covenant Church members) be the same and have the same capacities?

Everyone's spiritual sensitivity and maturity varies throughout their lives and even sometimes day to day.

Can you judge perfectly? Has the Lord given you special revelation into the capacities, motivations and desires of those who may watch content you find objectionable? If not, then wisdom dictates we hold our tongue and focus on our own weaknesses.

Has a prophet specifically mentioned the words "don't watch" and "R rated movies" in the same sentence, on purpose, in a public address or article? Sure. Has that same prophet in that same speech or article said other things which clarify the context of his remarks and indicate it is not really the letter we are to avoid as much as it is the content associated with movies that bear that letter? Yes.

In the end, much arguing, bad feelings and contention can be avoided if we remember the issue is usually more complex than: "Does this movie offend the Spirit?" It is usually, "Does it offend me personally and if so, should if offend everyone else too?"

For those with open minds or at the very least, a modicum of curiosity and ability to not only endure but enjoy fair-minded debate, consider this excellent and insightful contribution by Orson Scott Card:

Is There an R-rated Movie Commandment? - by Orson Scott Card

Edited February 13, 2010 by CrimsonKairos

[Justice]

Long post Crimson, but well worth the time to read.

(I just had a thought: Me accusing someone of making a long post is like Bill Gates calling someone rich :) )

[Suzie]

Wow excellent post CrimsonKairos.

[coral]

I will admit i have watched movies that are all ratings, here in the uk our ratings are a lil diffrent, we have U, PG, 12+, 15s, 18s so im guessing R ratings is 18s?

i have watched loads, if its a bit over the top i tend to turn it off but thats personally choice.

i agree with the comments of how ratings have changed over time. something that i may class as a bit to far fetched to be in a film for lets say a 12+. actually even PG movies can be a bit much for children.

i tend to be careful of what my children are watching, ive sat here a few times and the kids have been watching cartoons on tv and ive turned it off cause some stuff can be shocking to be honest.

[marts1]

I would guess the reason we have not heard much about this stuff is because its too easy of a decision to make on our own.

[MeIRL]

What many of you seem to be saying is that everyone else should not be able to find anything virtuous, lovely or praiseworthy in a movie if it is rated R.

I have not noticed anyone saying such a thing. Maybe I just missed it.

As for me, my point was that we have indeed had a prophet of God tell us in General Conference to avoid watching R-rated movies. Anyone who wants to watch Saving Private Ryan is welcome to do so, with no overt criticism from me -- only don't pretend that you're following the counsel of the prophet. I personally find such hypocrisy much more distasteful than a forthright "I don't want to do what the prophet says in this, so I won't."

It seems incredibly arrogant to me for someone to tell me what should or should not interfere with my ability to feel the Spirit.

Does it? The scriptures do that all the time. Do you find the scriptures arrogant?

If the scriptures teach that X is a fact, do you find it "arrogant" to proclaim that X is indeed a fact?

Do the scriptures teach that we should obey the counsel of the prophets?

Do you think R-rated movies are less objectionable today than they were 20+ years ago when President Benson gave this counsel?

Look, I could hardly care much less whether you watch R-rated movies, or for that matter smoke pot or fornicate. But let's not pretend nothing has ever been said on the matter. That's all I'm saying.

For those with open minds or at the very least, a modicum of curiosity and ability to not only endure but enjoy fair-minded debate, consider this excellent and insightful contribution by Orson Scott Card:

Is There an R-rated Movie Commandment? - by Orson Scott Card

Card was wrong. When the very General Conference quote I already gave was pointed out to him, he made no response. My estimation of Brother Card, whom I had always considered with respect, lessened greatly at that point. If a man is not honest enough to admit when he has misspoken, his words are not worth considering.

[marts1]

In that talk there where it says, "We counsel you, young men, not to pollute your minds with such degrading matter, for the mind through which this filth passes is never the same afterwards.", I have a hard time agreeing with. The part that says never be the same afterwords sounds highly exagerated. Should finish a statement like that with "unless repented of".

[MeIRL]

In that talk there where it says, "We counsel you, young men, not to pollute your minds with such degrading matter, for the mind through which this filth passes is never the same afterwards.", I have a hard time agreeing with. The part that says never be the same afterwords sounds highly exagerated. Should finish a statement like that with "unless repented of".

If you cut off your friends hand, is there any way you can possibly repent of that heinous act?

Yes.

Will your friend ever be the same, even if you repent?

No.

You can repent of indulging in pornography, but don't pretend that you can somehow remain untouched by it. It changes the very biochemistry of your brain. Complete, sincere repentance can remove the stain, but don't count on it to remove the effects of the evil you do to yourself. Some scars stay with you your whole life through, even if you repent.

[marts1]

With God all things are possible comes to mind. This reminds me of the abilty we have to forgive and 100% forget.