What does it mean that God was once man?

[prisonchaplain]

It an evangelical board, a couple of LDS posters were trying to explain how God could have once been like us, and yet have always been perfect. They suggested that Heavenly Father may have, in long infinity past, been the Son, who was sacrificed for the sins of another creation, and that his mortality was akin to the mortality of Jesus. They both admitted this was speculation, but offered it as a possible explanation.

Similarly, the both suggested that Heavenly Father may not be omnipresent spiritually or, obviously, physically, but that his intelligence is everywhere, and knows all that is happening. When I asked if that really differed much from the trinitarian view that God is indeed omnipotent, in that his spirit is everywhere. They admitted that the difference was slight, and not worth debating about.

Thoughts?

[HiJolly]

I agree.

The whole business about God once being as a man is, is non-scriptural, which is why President Hinckley said "I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we understand it". I think that's what he was referring to. We may believe it, but we don't teach it (in my experience).

As for man becoming as God is (theosis), there *is* scriptural support for that. And we *do* teach that.

Hyrum Andrus in his book "God, Man and the Universe" does a good job of explaining how the LDS believe God is omnipresent. I haven't read it since I was in my 20's. Time to dust it off.

HiJolly

[mikbone]

Lorenzo Snow couplet theology - MormonWiki.org

[bytebear]

Where there is no beginning, there is no end.

Since God has no end, He has no beginning. But we get stuck on time, and I don't believe God is limited by time, so although from our perspective He may have once been a man, He exists as God in the past, present and future, and was always God.

[CrimsonKairos]

Hey PC, long time no dialogue.

Is Jesus God?

Yes.

Was Jesus once a man like we are?

Yes.

According to Revelation 3:21 can we become as Christ became?

Yes (though we may disagree what it means to sit with Christ in his throne as Christ sits with our Father in His throne).

So let's reword the couplet to get some coherence going that is scriptural:

As man is, Christ once was; as Christ is, man may become.

Problems?

[hordak]

Gosple Principal Manual. (the class taught to new members)

Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God. … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 345–46).

We do teach it.

[xenic101]

President Hinckley's statement in that interview was printed not entirely in context...

Nature of God/Hinckley downplaying the King Follett Discourse - FAIRMormon

This link doesn't do the best of explaining it, but I can't locate the one that included the full text provided by Times magazine as opposed to the printed text. I'm not claiming that it was intentionally twisted or pulled from context, but Hinckley is responding more to the King Follett discourse in general, it having been the topic for a few paragraphs before the actual question. That link does quote Hinckley's response later to the concern over his remarks in that interview.

As far as the statement itself. "As man is now, God once was; as God is now man may be." It means what it says. And that's about all that's been revealed. Various General Authorities have commented on it, and countless people have speculated on it. However it's never been explained in depth and endorsed from the First Presidency. So we don't know exactly, other than what it says.

The fair page I linked to explains that LDS teaching typically focuses on the second half, "As God is now, man may be" because it's what is relevant to us in this mortality. I was going to add my own observations and feelings, but I'm begin pulled away....

[JohnOF123]

The whole business about God once being as a man is, is non-scriptural, which is why President Hinckley said "I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we understand it". I think that's what he was referring to. We may believe it, but we don't teach it (in my experience).

As for man becoming as God is (theosis), there *is* scriptural support for that. And we *do* teach that.

I was always under the impression that it was believed that God was once a man by all in the LDS faith. It is very interesting to me to hear other viewpoints. I heard this following quote a long time ago. Since Joseph Smith proclaimed it, wouldn't that make it true or intertwined in doctrine?

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens...I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form -- like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man....it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see....and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3).

[mrmarklin]

Gosple Principal Manual. (the class taught to new members)

We do teach it.

This is true.

Remember that by Eternal, Mormons mean as often as not, "Godlike" because Eternal is another name for God.

When we are perfected, we will be like Him. John 3:2.

[RipplecutBuddha]

Just for the fun of it, I'd like to include a few related questions.

When was there ever a son without a father?

What father was not first a son?

We see in nature a perfect pattern of life. Each example of life reproduces offspring. That offspring carries within itself the potential to become as the parent is.

The question thus becomes; are we really children of God the Father? If we are, then what of our potential? Would it follow through that we carry within ourselves the potential to become as God is?

[JohnOF123]

A couple more related questions about God The Father.

Do LDS believe that God was once a spirit baby?

Was God possibly once a sinner, as a man, as we are during our progression?

And finally, did He ever possibly worship another God?

This will help me clear up some of my foggy views of doctrine and personal beliefs.

I thank you ahead of time for your answers, but feel free to just say yes or no since I know this could be in depth. The key word is possible though.

[bytebear]

A couple more related questions about God The Father.

Do LDS believe that God was once a spirit baby?

Was God possibly once a sinner, as a man, as we are during our progression?

And finally, did He ever possibly worship another God?

This will help me clear up some of my foggy views of doctrine and personal beliefs.

I thank you ahead of time for your answers, but feel free to just say yes or no since I know this could be in depth. The key word is possible though.

Not to distract from your question, but you are bogged down in what traditional Christianity does. That is, they become absolutists, crying heretic to any idea that is not well established. Mormons aren't like that. We don't freak out when someone disagrees with something that is not explicitly defined. The gospel is clear, but the details can be foggy (1 Cor 13:12), and we are ok with that. We believe that God will yet reveal many great and wonderful things. We aren't absolute in all of our ideas. We know that God has a body of flesh and bone, but we still speculate on how that body differs from our own. So, some will say No to your question, and others will say Yes. But neither and both answers are correct.

Ironically, those who are excommunicated for heresy do so because they are so rigid in their interpretation of obscure doctrines. It is a paradigm shift that I think you must understand. Otherwise you end up just screaming "heresy" and we just smile politely and pray that your eyes will be opened.

Edited February 19, 2010 by bytebear

[JohnOF123]

Not to distract from your question, but you are bogged down in what traditional Christianity does.

Ok, I understand your point. But I'm still a little fuzzy on how most LDS might answer these questions. What do you think. Any chance on getting a quick response, or are those questions kinda personal. Sorry if I am prying in too much here.

[john doe]

There is no official position on those issues.

[JohnOF123]

There is no official position on those issues.

Ok thanks! Just curious, could you say with certainty that these are not possible?

[prisonchaplain]

Hey PC, long time no dialogue.

Is Jesus God?

Yes.

Was Jesus once a man like we are?

Yes.

According to Revelation 3:21 can we become as Christ became?

Yes (though we may disagree what it means to sit with Christ in his throne as Christ sits with our Father in His throne).

So let's reword the couplet to get some coherence going that is scriptural:

As man is, Christ once was; as Christ is, man may become.

Problems?

But was Heavenly Father once as Christ was?

[bytebear]

Ok thanks! Just curious, could you say with certainty that these are not possible?

The answer is we don't know. and we don't argue with what God may reveal about His nature. Would you say that it was absolutely NOT POSSIBLE for God to have a body of flesh and bone? No one fully knows how the cosmos works (of any religion), and how God came to be. You assume He never came to be and that He just is. We assume the same thing, but in a different way. I suppose you could say that the origin of the Father is a mystery, just as the Trinity is often explained. There is no end nor beginning to God. How that all works, we just don't know.

Perhaps the lyrics of the LDS Hymn "If You Could Hie to Kolob" explains it best.

LDS Church Music Interactive Music Player

[bytebear]

But was Heavenly Father once as Christ was?

We don't know, but if when you meet Him and if he says, yes, will you reject Him?

[prisonchaplain]

No, of course not. On the other hand, Jesus might have to resurrect me, due to the shock I'd experience. :-)

[heatwaveo8]

As a general rule of thumb, the Church is only going to reveal an eternal doctrine or principle if it is important for us to know it at that time. A lot of the questions that have been discussed here are really not important for us to know in this life because knowing the answers to them won't necessarily bring us one step closer to becoming like Heavenly Father. Thus the Church hasn't taken a stance on them one way or another.

[hordak]

A couple more related questions about God The Father.

Do LDS believe that God was once a spirit baby?

Was God possibly once a sinner, as a man, as we are during our progression?

And finally, did He ever possibly worship another God?

This will help me clear up some of my foggy views of doctrine and personal beliefs.

I thank you ahead of time for your answers, but feel free to just say yes or no since I know this could be in depth. The key word is possible though.

Depends on the member. I would say...

Yes.

Yes, as others have pointed out there are 2 parts. God was once a man, We can become like God. The church focuses on the 2nd part but i think the first really supports the 2nd.

It's like a father (in this case his Representative) who says "Son, if you buckle down and do your studies, do this this and this you can make it through med school" It (IMO) holds more weight coming from a father who is Dr,who went through it, rather then one who never set foot in in the class room after high school.

Yes.

(Note these our my personal views, and church really doesn't dwell on these things. Plus i'm not your typical member:D)

[Blackmarch]

It an evangelical board, a couple of LDS posters were trying to explain how God could have once been like us, and yet have always been perfect. They suggested that Heavenly Father may have, in long infinity past, been the Son, who was sacrificed for the sins of another creation, and that his mortality was akin to the mortality of Jesus. They both admitted this was speculation, but offered it as a possible explanation.

Similarly, the both suggested that Heavenly Father may not be omnipresent spiritually or, obviously, physically, but that his intelligence is everywhere, and knows all that is happening. When I asked if that really differed much from the trinitarian view that God is indeed omnipotent, in that his spirit is everywhere. They admitted that the difference was slight, and not worth debating about.

Thoughts?

No idea other than Christ has done nothing save what he's seen his father do- for me this is the best scriptural evidence that He was as we are.. or more accurate as Jesus was when he was on the earth. (that and the scriptures that state we were made in the image of God)

Unfortunately this requires us to define "What is man" and how is man different from the Man. And also requires to define what Christ was when he was here.

Personally i think people are going the wrong direction when they say that God was once like us or once like Christ... but rather that we are made to be like him, or similar to how he once was.

[john doe]

Ok thanks! Just curious, could you say with certainty that these are not possible?

No. Could you?

[Vanhin]

There are more than one views or theories on what exactly it means that God was once a man. I think it is evident from the scriptures that God is and Exalted man, with a body of flesh and bone, which to me means that He did enter mortality and gain a body at some earlier time.

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us. A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him. (D&C130:22-23)

Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name, also. (Moses 7:35)

Some have specualted that this amounts to what has been termed, "an infinite regress of gods", meaning God the Father had a father, and his father had a father, and so forth, and that God was once a normal non-god human spirit who entered mortality and was exalted in the same manner that we will be, or that God the Father was once the Christ of previous generation. There is at least some scriptural support for the last point.

I, on the other hand, go with a different take on this. In my opinion, our scriptures currently do not mention or leave very much room for an infinite regress of "worshipped" gods, though it is clear that the children of God can be considered "gods", but not equal in honor, like the Father. There is nothing to support the idea that we will be worhsipped as the Father and Son are. The closest thing is that "angels will be subject" to us and we will "bear the souls of men" if we are exalted (see D&C 132). However, all things considered, the scriptures as a whole forbid the worship of any other God (Guide to the Scriptures: Worship).

From our modern scriptures and many of the other teachings of Joseph Smith, for example, I find compelling evidence that both God the Father and Jesus Christ are infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting, and that we too are co-eternal with God. The Book of Moses, for example paints a picture of a God and his Christ, who endlessly create worlds and bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind (see Moses 1). Joseph Smith taught that God found himself in the midst of spirits and glory, and that He authored the plan of salvation. Said Joseph:

The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits. (LDS.org - Ensign Article - The King Follett Sermon)

The Book of Abraham and all of scripture describe the pre-mortal Jesus, or Jehovah, as on like unto God (Abr. 3:24), and the Book of Mormon makes the case the Christ is the Eternal God, and that he himself is infinite and eternal. The Doctrine and Covenants says the following in unequivocal terms:

By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them;

...by the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of the Father and of the Son; Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen. (D&C 20:17,27-28)

Others are free to believe what they will, but I can only conclude from the scriptures that there are no other "Gods" in the sense that they will be objects of worship, and that Elohim is the "Most High God" - the "God of gods". I do believe that we can become like them in every way, but we cannot surpass them in that honor.

Jesus Christ was God before, during, and after his mortal ministry; and thus, I believe that God the Father was God before, during, and after any mortal experience that He passed through to gain his body, and like the Son, had the power to resurrect himself. I believe that exalted men and women continue the work of the Father by bearing the souls of men, and are made kings and queens, priests and priestesses unto the Most High God. We will have dominion in the Father's kingdom, and bring honor and glory to God and the Lamb forever. This is what I believe has been going on forever. We will be one with the Father and represent him in the many wolrds that we preside over, like Jesus Christ does, but Elohim will ever be the Most High God, the One True God and the object of our worship.

This is my faith as a latter-day saint. It's what I believe is in harmony with binding scripture that we have.

Regards,

Vanhin

P.S. For more info on the two prevailing thoughts on this matter, see the following article: Nature of God/Infinite regress of Gods - FAIRMormon

[CrimsonKairos]

But was Heavenly Father once as Christ was?

I would not pretend to know the answer to that.

When it comes to settled, established doctrine I restrict myself to what the standard works teach.

As far as I know, none of the Lord's prophets in any of the scriptures taught that God told them that our Heavenly Father was once a mortal like we are.

For me personally, my opinions and my beliefs are different:

My opinions are based on my ability to reason and use logic and may often be wrong.

My beliefs are founded in scriptural authority.