What does it mean that God was once man?

[CrimsonKairos]

PC, here is a bit of LDS scripture concerning the nature of angels, an excerpt from which I reproduce below:

1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—

2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.

So LDS doctrine teaches that in heaven right now a being is either a spirit being without a physical body because they have not yet been resurrected, or a resurrected being whose spirit and physical bodies have been inseparably rejoined.

The term "angel" is merely a title or descriptor of resurrected beings, just like "mortal" is a title or descriptor of beings with physical bodies who are subject to death. We aren't talking species, we're talking resurrected status. Hope that helps.

[prisonchaplain]

My thinking on this matter has adjusted somewhat. LDS theology about human and Godly nature, can be viewed as nuetral. It does not really elevate or devalue God or humanity. It simply presents a different scenario. If you believe it, the idea can be beautiful...the idea that angels and humans are literal children of God. Then again, if it's not true, then wow, Joseph Smith really came up with something intricate!

[JohnOF123]

why did it take 6 days to do it?

Probably to symbolically the structure of our week; 6 days of work, rest on the 7th day.

I thought we all agreed that God is truly all powerful (omnipotent)?

[xenic101]

if it's not true, then wow, Joseph Smith really came up with something intricate!

This honestly doesn't touch the depth of intricacy of what Joseph restored. Considering the doctrine, the information, the revelations he brought forth, and looking at what has since been discovered that correlates with things he wouldn't have had an outside source for, it would have taken nothing short of a divine miracle for him to have made it up.

[JohnOF123]

This honestly doesn't touch the depth of intricacy of what Joseph restored. Considering the doctrine, the information, the revelations he brought forth, and looking at what has since been discovered that correlates with things he wouldn't have had an outside source for, it would have taken nothing short of a divine miracle for him to have made it up.

It could be argued that other masterpieces such as A Tale of Two Cities, War and Peace or any the works of William Shakespeare could also never be completed by one man. They are very in depth, long, complex and touching. In Tolkien's (Lord of the Rings), not only are many interacting civilizations created but their own languages as well.

My point is not that Joseph was wrong, but that this is not a good reason to accredit someone with the inability to achieve. Other religions may have similar arguments to their defense.

Edited February 21, 2010 by JohnOF123

[Justice]

Probably to symbolically the structure of our week; 6 days of work, rest on the 7th day.

I thought we all agreed that God is truly all powerful (omnipotent)?

Hmmm. I thought our weeks were structured after God's creation process, not the other way around.

Remember, now the Sabbath Day is the first day of the week because of Christ's resurrection. God can't very well end creation on the first day and create on the next 6... that wouldn't make sense.

The Sabbath was made for man by God, not the other way around.

Why does the fact that I believe God did not do something mean I devalue God's power or abilities? When Christ was crucified and resurrected, and ascended for the last time 40 days later, there were still sick and afflicted on the earth. Does that mean He did not have the power or ability to heal them? Of course not.

So, these discussions would be easier and more meaningful if you didn't read beliefs into my words. I am expressing my view of how Moses states that God created the heaven and earth, not that God wasn't powerful enough to do this or that.

[xenic101]

It could be argued that other masterpieces such as A Tale of Two Cities, War and Peace or any the works of William Shakespeare could also never be completed by one man. They are very in depth, long, complex and touching. In Tolkien's (Lord of the Rings), not only are many interacting civilizations created but their own languages as well.

My point is not that Joseph was wrong, but that this is not a good reason to accredit someone with the inability to achieve. Other religions may have similar arguments to their defense.

I think you are referring to the claim that the Book of Mormon could only have come about as Joseph claims because of it's length or depth. I am not referring to that alone, but to everything Joseph taught, including the Book of Mormon. Though a thread looking at correlations in the Book of Mormon to what we know now that Joseph most likely wouldn't have known would be interesting.

[Justice]

It could be argued that other masterpieces such as A Tale of Two Cities, War and Peace or any the works of William Shakespeare could also never be completed by one man. They are very in depth, long, complex and touching. In Tolkien's (Lord of the Rings), not only are many interacting civilizations created but their own languages as well.

My point is not that Joseph was wrong, but that this is not a good reason to accredit someone with the inability to achieve. Other religions may have similar arguments to their defense.

Yeah, but none of these authors or other works wrote of another REAL civilization that must be perfect and true when measured against other known civlizations. How the 2 interact and share common beliefs and traditions would be impossible to duplicate by one man, without a computer or library, in only a couple or few months... having only a 2nd grade education.

Have you heard of chaismus? Do you know it wasn't even discovered as an ancient Hebrew literary form until about a hundred years after the Book of Mormon was printed?

And, John, that's just ONE of many, many evidences of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

[JohnOF123]

the Sabbath Day is the first day of the week because of Christ's resurrection.

Shmita, also called the Sabbatical Year, is the seventh year of the seven-year.

"And God rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And GOD blessed the seventh day [not the first day], and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which GOD created and made.” Genesis 2:2

Seventh Day, Day of Rest, don't work, done.

I don't understand why we are even debating when the Sabbath is?

Edited February 21, 2010 by JohnOF123

[JohnOF123]

I think you are referring to the claim that the Book of Mormon could only have come about as Joseph claims because of it's length or depth. I am not referring to that alone...

And, John, that's just ONE of many, many evidences of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

I don't think we can really debate any of this. It would probably be a longer thread than the Questions Only thread and would probably go nowhere. Ok, so what's the original topic again...

I think that Tarnished left of by saying the following, let's take it from there.

I believe that God was once a man much like Jesus was once a man.

"John 5: 19,

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

I read this as Jesus is doing what the Father has done before him, which would mean that God went down and was the Savior for his own siblings.

As for your what if scenario, if something like that happened I would feel quite confused but would accept it. However I do feel much more happy having faith in the belief that instead when I die I will be once more united with my heavenly family. It is not glory that our religion seeks when we die, it is a reunion with our family. I wish so desperately to be reunited with my heavenly family and my earthly family so much I would do anything to make sure it happens. This life is our experience with life and with having bodies and with controlling ourselves and learning to live a life that will allow us to return to our Father. How wonderful is that?

Edited February 21, 2010 by JohnOF123

[Justice]

Shmita, also called the Sabbatical Year, is the seventh year of the seven-year.

"And God rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And GOD blessed the seventh day [not the first day], and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which GOD created and made.” Genesis 2:2

Seventh Day, Day of Rest, don't work, done.

I don't understand why we are even debating when the Sabbath is?

Yes, before Jesus was resurrected, the Sabbath was the 7th day of the week. Those who do not believe Jesus is the Messiah still believe the Sabbath day is the 7th day of the week, and a few Christian religions.

The New Testament mentions the first day of the week, and makes statements that after Jesus was resurrected they met on the first day of the week to break bread and preach.

Call the 7th day the Sabbath day if you wish, I won't disagree. But, the first day of the week was kept as a holy day by early Christians, and is the day they met to worship and remember Jesus.

Again, we know this by modern revelation, and is supported in the Bible. By just the Bible, one could probably not arrive at a definitive answer. This is why Chritian religions today meet on either day, most the first and a few the seventh, because the Bible (New Testament) is not crystal clear.

[mikbone]

Where does it say we were created from a matter called intelligence which always were in existance or something like that?

I think that the idea originates from the following document.

B. H. Roberts, "The Immortality of Man"

[Kukui]

I think that the idea originates from the following document.

B. H. Roberts, "The Immortality of Man"

Thanks Mike. That was a great read.

Kukui

[Vanhin]

Where does it say we were created from a matter called intelligence which always were in existance or something like that?

B.H. Roberts and those who subscribe to his theory, seem to argue that man is a "triple" entity. Intelligence + spirit + physical matter.

However, one can produce very little support from contemporary writings of prophets and apostles, who instead have repeatedly called us dual beings (spirit and physical matter). Search for "dual beings" at lds.org to get an idea. As to your question, the Guide to the Scriptures has the following to say:

Intelligence has several meanings, three of which are:1 It is the light of truth which gives life and light to all things in the universe. It has always existed.2 The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God.3 The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children. (Guide to the Scriptures: Intelligence, Intelligences)

I have often noted the omision of a 4th definition in the GS for intelligence(s), namely a self-existing entity that is not spirit.

So, at least one other line of though, contrary to B.H. Roberts, is that intelligence is the same as spirit matter, and that it is un-created. Along with that is that intelligence is also used to describe the "light of truth", which is the same as the light of Christ, and that it is responsible for giving light and life to all things in the Universe. So, the immortal intelligence is spirit, and man is spirit at his core, and that spirit and element together produces the fullness of joy. We are dual beings. Here's just a sample of recent authorities teaching this concept.

Pondering this question, it becomes clear that we must begin by becoming one within ourselves. We are dual beings of flesh and spirit, and we sometimes feel out of harmony or in conflict. Our spirit is enlightened by conscience, the light of Christ (see Moro. 7:16; D&C 93:2), and naturally responds to the whisperings of the Holy Spirit and desires to follow truth. But the appetites and temptations to which the flesh is subject can, if permitted, overwhelm and dominate the spirit. (LDS.org - Elder D. Todd Christofferson - That They May Be One in Us)

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited February 21, 2010 by Vanhin
Spelling.

[marts1]

The scripture in Abraham was the one thanks.

[Vanhin]

The scripture in Abraham was the one thanks.

The Doctrine and Covenants too. The following three references give that understanding as well.

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not ecreated or made, neither indeed can be. (D&C 93:29)

For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; (D&C 93:33)

There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; (D&C 131:7)

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited February 21, 2010 by Vanhin

[marts1]

I think that the idea originates from the following document.

B. H. Roberts, "The Immortality of Man"

Sorry Milkbone, I just read the article. A very good expansion of what I was looking for.

[MCootey]

If I may and thank you. I pray I answer this question.

John 1:1-5. Verse two most especially.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.

I look at this scripture and I praise God for my ignorance because this scripture fills me with joy. I have a theory and it coincides with what you all have shared. What I gather from this is; verse one advises us on Jesus Christ, the Firstborn, the Lamb, as well as the Gospel. They were with God. And Jesus was God. We Saints believe in the living Gospel after all. Verse two then says the same was in the beginning with God. The Church teaches us that The light of Christ is sometimes called the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, or the Light of Life. It comes from Heavenly Father. 

DC 88:12 - Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space

I think Heavenly Father was ordained and endowed with the Light of Life before his Heavenly throne like when He ordained Jesus. Look at verse two. We are told we are heirs of Christ. Heirs of the Kingdom of Heaven and that we could go all the way to the Celestial kingdom. Verse two connects the dots. I feel it loop's. Don't you think?

Heavenly Father was a lamb of God before his Son for his Eternal Heavenly Father. Way before Jesus Christ ever was. Look at the scriptures. Jesus was ordained, given, keys, governs, creates and loves us as He see's His Father do. His inheritance was to become our Eternal Father, our Almighty God. "When was there ever a Son without a Father" some of you have quoted. I think the Gospel, the Light of Life is passed from every Eternal Father to every firstborn son. A continual royal line. Jesus Christ was ordained a Great High Priest before the foundation of the earth, receiving all the keys of the Kingdom; Jesus was ordained with the Light of Life to govern the Kingdom of Heaven. So it was for Almighty God, and his Father, so on and so forth as far as it goes. If we keep Almighty God's commandments, keeping our oathes and covenants we'll receive of his fullness which is truth and light. Doing so we become heirs in Christ. 

So it was for the spirit of truth. There was never a God without the spirit of truth. There was never a God without the light of life. Its said Intelligence, or the spirit of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

John 1:5 - And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Darkness can't comprehend this concept. Every man whose spirit receiveth not the spirit of truth(Jesus Christ, intelligence, or rather the wisdom of God)is under condemnation.

Jesus Christ does nothing of himself. Exaltation relies on both the reception of light(power) and truth(Intelligence). Without light a fullness of truth one can never have. 

Lorenzo Snow received this revelation "As man is now, God once was; as God is now man may be." A revelation while on a mission in England. In getting back to the States He told the Prophet Joseph Smith and a year later it blossomed into the King Follett Discourse we all love and adore.

Our agency is to accept or reject the light and truth. however, its not enough. The things we must do are called works To continually grow with the light of life, and the spirit of Truth we must work in order to increase our intelligence, grace to grace. This is wisdom of God's. We Saints, who have taken on the Abrahamic Covenant, our Baptismal Covenant, Oath and Covenant of the priesthood, Endowments, the Law of Consecration, the Law of Sacrifice, and the Law of the Gospel have been taught to never to be weary of good works. We can let our light shine so the Godhead, or rather Eloheim, may see our good works.

 

[Traveler]

20 hours ago, MCootey said:

If I may and thank you. I pray I answer this question.

John 1:1-5. Verse two most especially.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.

I look at this scripture and I praise God for my ignorance because this scripture fills me with joy. I have a theory and it coincides with what you all have shared. What I gather from this is; verse one advises us on Jesus Christ, the Firstborn, the Lamb, as well as the Gospel. They were with God. And Jesus was God. We Saints believe in the living Gospel after all. Verse two then says the same was in the beginning with God. The Church teaches us that The light of Christ is sometimes called the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, or the Light of Life. It comes from Heavenly Father. 

DC 88:12 - Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space

I think Heavenly Father was ordained and endowed with the Light of Life before his Heavenly throne like when He ordained Jesus. Look at verse two. We are told we are heirs of Christ. Heirs of the Kingdom of Heaven and that we could go all the way to the Celestial kingdom. Verse two connects the dots. I feel it loop's. Don't you think?

Heavenly Father was a lamb of God before his Son for his Eternal Heavenly Father. Way before Jesus Christ ever was. Look at the scriptures. Jesus was ordained, given, keys, governs, creates and loves us as He see's His Father do. His inheritance was to become our Eternal Father, our Almighty God. "When was there ever a Son without a Father" some of you have quoted. I think the Gospel, the Light of Life is passed from every Eternal Father to every firstborn son. A continual royal line. Jesus Christ was ordained a Great High Priest before the foundation of the earth, receiving all the keys of the Kingdom; Jesus was ordained with the Light of Life to govern the Kingdom of Heaven. So it was for Almighty God, and his Father, so on and so forth as far as it goes. If we keep Almighty God's commandments, keeping our oathes and covenants we'll receive of his fullness which is truth and light. Doing so we become heirs in Christ. 

So it was for the spirit of truth. There was never a God without the spirit of truth. There was never a God without the light of life. Its said Intelligence, or the spirit of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

John 1:5 - And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Darkness can't comprehend this concept. Every man whose spirit receiveth not the spirit of truth(Jesus Christ, intelligence, or rather the wisdom of God)is under condemnation.

Jesus Christ does nothing of himself. Exaltation relies on both the reception of light(power) and truth(Intelligence). Without light a fullness of truth one can never have. 

Lorenzo Snow received this revelation "As man is now, God once was; as God is now man may be." A revelation while on a mission in England. In getting back to the States He told the Prophet Joseph Smith and a year later it blossomed into the King Follett Discourse we all love and adore.

Our agency is to accept or reject the light and truth. however, its not enough. The things we must do are called works To continually grow with the light of life, and the spirit of Truth we must work in order to increase our intelligence, grace to grace. This is wisdom of God's. We Saints, who have taken on the Abrahamic Covenant, our Baptismal Covenant, Oath and Covenant of the priesthood, Endowments, the Law of Consecration, the Law of Sacrifice, and the Law of the Gospel have been taught to never to be weary of good works. We can let our light shine so the Godhead, or rather Eloheim, may see our good works.

 

For a first post in this forum - you have taken on quite a complex question and answer.  Someday I would like to drill down and become more familiar with your background and the things that have shaped your view.

 

The Traveler