PC finishes BoM -- observations

[prisonchaplain]

Yes, I finally took time to skim read the BoM in one setting. I did not read word-for-word, and would not pretend to have even a working knowledge. My purpose was to gain an overview, to try to catch the general flow of BoM chronology and events, and to catch any relevent commentary on Christian practice. Before embarking on this spiritual project I prayed a modified Moroni challenge--asking God for wisdom and discernment as I read.

While I did not gain a testimony of the BoM's veracity, I did find some clear insights that were helpful. I've always thought that key LDS doctrinal differences were mostly contained in the D&C, and that most Christians would find little to argue with in the BoM. However, I did find a few strong stances. Here are the key ones:

1. Jesus Christ is repeatedly prophesied, by name.

2. Predestination and Infant Baptism are roundly condemned as damnable teachings.

3. There are several references to being born again and to repentance.

4. Priestcraft--wherein priests are paid and given place for arrogance and self-promotion--is repeatedly opposed.

Most of these distinctive statements dated before Christ, which really struck me.

Beyond all that, the BoM does read much like the Old Testament--wars, prophets calling the people back to God, cycles of repentence, apostasy, judgment, and renewed repentence. Good kings, bad kings, periods of spiritual enlightenment, and other times of darkness.

[Moksha]

It came to pass that PC read it. Congratulations.

[pam]

For only skimming it, you caught quite a bit.

[bytebear]

Since the BOM was abridged and compiled long after the coming of Christ, I would expect the text to have specific references that predate His coming, simply because the person writing on the Golden Plates had a more complete knowledge that allowed him to clarify the writings for our benefit. If you or I were to write an abridgment of the OT, I would think it would contain Christian concepts that we now understand more completely. "His name shall be Wonderful, Councelor, the Prince of Peace, Jesus the Christ."

[Justice]

So, what's your impression about a 19 - 20 year old man with a 2nd grade education writing it in about 3 months with only 1 scribe and no reference material... in 1825ish?

[xenic101]

Beyond all that, the BoM does read much like the Old Testament--wars, prophets calling the people back to God, cycles of repentence, apostasy, judgment, and renewed repentence. Good kings, bad kings, periods of spiritual enlightenment, and other times of darkness.

I think, as someone who has a vague recollection of both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, that the Book of Mormon is more distinct in establishing that pattern. I think it draws a clearer picture of the pattern the Lord's people follow, and a clearer picture in general. That comes from it's source and being a purpose driven 'compilation'.

So, what's your impression about a 19 - 20 year old man with a 2nd grade education writing it in about 3 months with only 1 scribe and no reference material... in 1825ish?

Funny how that's not a questions the missionaries usually ask....

[Justice]

The reason why the missionaries don't ask this question is because it supposes the "physical evidence" side of it. They work closely with investigators to be sure they read only selected verses closely and help them understand the implications of those verses, helping them lean toward the spiritual implications. And they make every effort to help the investigator read the Book of Mormon for the right reasons and that their prayers are focused on the real purpose for which the book was given to us.

Before embarking on this spiritual project I prayed a modified Moroni challenge--asking God for wisdom and discernment as I read.

While I did not gain a testimony of the BoM's veracity, I did find some clear insights that were helpful.

Judging by these comments from PC, I've gathered that he did not read it for the right reason nor was his prayer and intent focused on the promise it offers. It's not a big surprise he does not believe it's true... he didn't even ask, nor does it seem he even desired to know. His mind was made up before he read it.

No knocks on PC, though, but I hope that if he looks at it as the "physical" miracle that it is it might help him rethink his purpose and intent for reading it and give it another try for the intent of knowing if it's true.

[WmLee]

Chaplain ~ I have always admired the things you write, the question and the suggestions you share here. That you started your look into the B or M with a prayer asking for His spirit to be with you is just the thing that I admire most!

You argument with the B of M is with these keys points or do you not fully understand these points? Can I suggest you look at the student manual for those who are enrolled in a B of M class at an LDS Institute? Might help you understand some of these key points a little better.

I do a lot of photography and PhotoShop is one of my main programs. I couldn’t breeze through the instructions book and with that general overview understand what it was all about. Nor could I read the manual and fully understand it’s potential. I got PhotoShop for dummies; now I consider myself dangerous!

[hordak]

Judging by these comments from PC, I've gathered that he did not read it for the right reason nor was his prayer and intent focused on the promise it offers. It's not a big surprise he does not believe it's true... he didn't even ask, nor does it seem he even desired to know. His mind was made up before he read it.

No knocks on PC, though, but I hope that if he looks at it as the "physical" miracle that it is it might help him rethink his purpose and intent for reading it and give it another try for the intent of knowing if it's true.

In the interest of fairness i think the road goes both ways. If someone takes Moroni's challenge with sincerity it is an indication they have their "mind made up" ( at least partially) in believing that Moroni's words in the Book of Mormon are true. Otherwise they wouldn't take the challenge.

I think the most interesting thing about the challenge is it's "vagueness"

he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

It doesn't say sleep visions, waking visions, pillars of fire etc. I figure God is smart enough to understand (as i an earthy father can understand) that different children need different instructions (E.G. "Honey would you like to help Daddy with the dishes" to a 5 year old,. "Get in there and get the dishes done if you want to go to the mall" to a 16 year old.) Different children will respond differently to different instruction.

And i think we do a great disservice to assume others most not have "done it right" if they didn't come to the same conclusion we did.

If that was the case (everyone should have the same experiences) there would be no need for the Holy Ghost and we could just install jumbo trons in the chapels and have the 12/ Prophet give us lessons every Sunday.

[marts1]

Of course I realise you are new to the book ol chap. I commend your efforts. In my situation having read this book maybe 30 times in the last 4 or 5 years, I'm sure I would be severly repromanded if I read it in the manner you have. If you do ever make the attempt to read it again try slowing down and feel the words. I'm sure what you have takin in so far would be a great benefit to you if you take the time to read it again.

[FunkyTown]

Thank you, PC. :) You are, as always, amazing.

And you raise a good point! Those seem to be anachronisms, considering the prevalence of the Pharisees at the time and the strength in which they are spoken of.

Not to mention Lehi, a prophet who was actually a hunter! Considering that the Jews disliked hunters as a rule(Nimrod and Esau come to mind, not to mention the difficulty in living kosher as a hunter, which one would assume a Prophet would have to do).

There are actual answers for this. We could discuss specifics if you wanted to say which of those anachronisms you wanted to discuss first?

[Maureen]

So, what's your impression about a 19 - 20 year old man with a 2nd grade education writing it in about 3 months with only 1 scribe and no reference material... in 1825ish?

Over the years I've noticed that JS's education seems to get demoted over time. At one time he had a 4th grade education, then it became 3rd grade and now it's down to 2nd grade; in about 20 years he's going to be described as an idiot savant. Whatever level he received in his actual formal education, JS was an intelligent man; probably self taught in some areas.

M.

[mnn727]

In the interest of fairness i think the road goes both ways. If someone takes Moroni's challenge with sincerity it is an indication they have their "mind made up" ( at least partially) in believing that Moroni's words in the Book of Mormon are true. Otherwise they wouldn't take the challenge.

.

Sorry Hordak, as a convert that has taken the challange I must disagree with you.

My mind was not made up in advance, I asked God if it was true or not

While the possibilty was there that it may have been, the possiblilitythat it was a scam was there also (and in fact was my first thought)

[Vanhin]

Hey PC, that is good news, and thanks for sharing your impressions.

Concerning the use of the name "Jesus Christ" prior to the actual mortal ministry of Christ, the Book of Mormon has the following explanation.

For according to the words of the prophets, the Messiah cometh in six hundred years from the time that my father left Jerusalem; and according to the words of the prophets, and also the word of the angel of God, his name shall be Jesus Christ, the Son of God. (2 Ne. 25:19)

In fact, the entire chapter of 2 Nephi 25 is an excellent example of how the message of the Book of Mormon harmonizes message of the Old and New testament. If you only skimmed that chapter, I would recommend it as good reading for both Jew and Christian alike.

Also, you will be interested to know that the Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price indicates that not only did Moses know the name of the mortal Messiah, but so did Adam. Adam was taught the gospel of Jesus Christ and was baptized.

And he also said unto him: If thou wilt turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, and believe, and repent of all thy transgressions, and be baptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth, which is Jesus Christ, the only name which shall be given under heaven, whereby salvation shall come unto the children of men, ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, asking all things in his name, and whatsoever ye shall ask, it shall be given you.

...

And it came to pass, when the Lord had spoken with Adam, our father, that Adam cried unto the Lord, and he was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and was laid under the water, and was brought forth out of the water. (Moses 6:52,64)

Regards,

Vanhin

[mnn727]

we could just install jumbo trons in the chapels and have the 12/ Prophet give us lessons every Sunday.

As the Ward Exec Sec that has to assign speakers, this sounds great to me!

[pyxiwulf]

Over the years I've noticed that JS's education seems to get demoted over time. At one time he had a 4th grade education, then it became 3rd grade and now it's down to 2nd grade; in about 20 years he's going to be described as an idiot savant. Whatever level he received in his actual formal education, JS was an intelligent man; probably self taught in some areas.

M.

Well, the reality is that more and more is being taught younger and younger. What kindergartners are required to know now, wasn't required until 2nd grade when I was in school and I know the high schoolers are WAY farther ahead than we were (and I'm only 14 years out of school!). So, it could be said that I only had a 10th grade education based on today's standards. Of course, I'm not convinced this is the cause of the phenomenon, but fun to think about.

[john doe]

Over the years I've noticed that JS's education seems to get demoted over time. At one time he had a 4th grade education, then it became 3rd grade and now it's down to 2nd grade; in about 20 years he's going to be described as an idiot savant. Whatever level he received in his actual formal education, JS was an intelligent man; probably self taught in some areas.

M.

I think there is some merit to this. Joseph was 14 when he prayed in the grove, but how much education he had in relation to how we in the western world get it could be debated. And it's probably best left to another thread. But if my memory serves me, he didn't start the translation until he was 18. I'm guessing that by this time he had pretty good reading and comprehension skills developed. I highly doubt he had any training in writing, other than basic writing skills needed to communicate by adults with each other in those times. Probably not any courses in writing literature. If you wish to discuss this further, I suggest we open a new thread on the subject to avoid detracting from this one.

[rameumptom]

Joseph had about 3 years of formal education, which is where the number comes from. As for him being an "idiot savant" there were people in his day that made that claim, so perhaps we're actually giving him more credit today....

BTW, PC, you will have to read it slower, so you don't miss the great stories in the BoM. I really like the one where Brigham Young rides the buffalo.

Seriously, I've read the BoM over 75 times (lost track). As with the Bible, I can now ponder on a word choice here or there, rather than overall concepts. There are many other implicit issues brought up in the Book of Mormon, especially teaching patterns on certain topics that make it very relevant to current LDS temple practices.

[Dravin]

Gotta give you kudos for at least going over it briefly. I can't tell you how many times I've been lectured on my own beliefs (not saying you do this) by people who have never cracked the book open.

So, even if you aren't any closer to believing you are a little bit closer to understanding. :)

[prisonchaplain]

Since the BOM was abridged and compiled long after the coming of Christ, I would expect the text to have specific references that predate His coming, simply because the person writing on the Golden Plates had a more complete knowledge that allowed him to clarify the writings for our benefit. If you or I were to write an abridgment of the OT, I would think it would contain Christian concepts that we now understand more completely. "His name shall be Wonderful, Councelor, the Prince of Peace, Jesus the Christ."

Thank you. Yes, that's very helpful. Still, I was surprised that some of the issues I highlighted in the OP were contentions in the BC era---especially infant baptism and Election. Then again, it's my own view that the great error of Judaism remains a total abandonment of the prophetic call for Holy Israel to be a City on a Hill for the Gentiles.

[prisonchaplain]

So, what's your impression about a 19 - 20 year old man with a 2nd grade education writing it in about 3 months with only 1 scribe and no reference material... in 1825ish?

IMHO Joseph Smith was certainly a poster child for home schooling!

Seriously, even his fiercist critics could not deny that he operated with a certain level of genius. I also see influences from his early experiences with religion--as well as those of his father (I watched a few films while I visited Temple Square). He read his Bible, knew the main controversies of his day, and held some strong views.

Whether the BoM is the result of God's direct visitation, raw and unschooled human genius, or some combination of inspiration and giftedness, I would guess even LDS have slightly varied opinions. Allegory or literal, right?

[Vanhin]

Thank you. Yes, that's very helpful. Still, I was surprised that some of the issues I highlighted in the OP were contentions in the BC era---especially infant baptism and Election. Then again, it's my own view that the great error of Judaism remains a total abandonment of the prophetic call for Holy Israel to be a City on a Hill for the Gentiles.

As far as the material against infant baptism goes, that stuff was actually authored by Mormon in letters to his son Moroni around 400 AD (See Moroni 8, chapter heading).

Regards,

Vanhin

[prisonchaplain]

Judging by these comments from PC, I've gathered that he did not read it for the right reason nor was his prayer and intent focused on the promise it offers. It's not a big surprise he does not believe it's true... he didn't even ask, nor does it seem he even desired to know. His mind was made up before he read it.

That's not totally accurate or fair. It's true that I do not come to the BoM as a disgruntled Protestant, convinced something is missing from my faith, or from my church. Likewise, I don't come with a presupposition that this is likely holy writ, and that all I need is a bit of spiritual confirmation. But, I did come with an open heart, looking for the Spirit to direct my understanding. I was open to any confirmation, though I was not predisposed towards it.

Put another way, I was certainly in a better place for God to convince me than Saul was, when he was on his way to Damascus.

No knocks on PC, though, but I hope that if he looks at it as the "physical" miracle that it is it might help him rethink his purpose and intent for reading it and give it another try for the intent of knowing if it's true.

Okay, maybe not a knock. But, it did seem like a pinch.

[Vanhin]

And if you haven't yet, check out some of thekabalist's commentary on the Book of Mormon -> A Jewish Perspective on the Book of Mormon - LDS Mormon Forums. It's certainly interesting if nothing else. He recently posted his commentary on 1 Nephi Chapter 17.

Regards,

Vanhin

[prisonchaplain]

Chaplain ~ I have always admired the things you write, the question and the suggestions you share here. That you started your look into the B or M with a prayer asking for His spirit to be with you is just the thing that I admire most!

You argument with the B of M is with these keys points or do you not fully understand these points? Can I suggest you look at the student manual for those who are enrolled in a B of M class at an LDS Institute? Might help you understand some of these key points a little better.

Actually, I agree with most of those points. While I do not oppose the churches' use of full-time, supported clergy, many of the scandals of the last century, especially with televangelism proves the wisdom of the BoM's cautions. Likewise, my church disavows infant baptism and Election doctrines and practices. What struck me as that those doctrinal stances seemed, on my cursory reading, to be odd in the BoM. I have no disputation--they just did not seem to fit so naturally with the rest. Nevertheless, looking into the manuals does seem a logical next step.