Sign in to follow this  
InquisitiveSoul

Apostasy

Recommended Posts

Believe it or not I was gonna say the same thing almost word for word. lol

I would say a good reason might be because revelation stopped not too long after Christ was put to death, otherwise the Bible would be about 100 or 200 times larger then what it is now. There are many other reasons why we believe this, I'm sure you'll see shortly.

Edited by marts1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I hate to be a smart alec, but the answer is: "because there was."

I appreciate your humor, but would you care to elaborate?

Certainly a Catholic would disagree with a Mormon. I've heard where Mormons cite an apostasy, thus laying the foundation for a restoration. The things I'm stuck on is:

1. How can anyone prove a Catholic Priest is acting without "authority."

2. Why a 1600 year (give or take) gap without Priesthood or a true church?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The better question might actually be "Why do Mormons believe that an Apostasy was necessary?"

Keep in mind, if you are Mormon or Baptist or insert religion here, most likely your religion makes perfect sense. To those of us on the outside looking in, many ideas don't make sense yet.

That said, I'm not convinced an apostasy was necessary yet. Certainly there are references to people or groups falling away, but being on the outside I'm still looking for evidence of an apostasy.

It seems Catholics take a lot of heat from Mormons. However, I'd suggest Mormons should thank the Catholics, specficially the Monks for keeping The Bible alive through time.

Respectfully Yours.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IMHO, no Christian church or denomination denies that there have been many apostasies and apostates throughout church history. The question is: What of "The Great Apostasy?" Seventh Day Adventists may well argue that it began when Christian worship was changed to Sunday. Luther might have said that it was during his era that the Church crossed the line from grave error into Apostasy.

Modern evangelicals, particularly those of us who ascribe to visions of the future such as that popularized by the Left Behind Series, with it's Great Tribulation and Antichrist, believe that the Apostasy is yet to come. That it will be a satanic conglemeration of world religions that gives homage to all, but true worship to none. Further we believe the Apostasy will eventually jettison even that vacuous theology, and morph into a religion that gives worship to the Antichrist.

We could all come up with verses to support our views, but the real question may be who can make the most convincing movie to depict their perspective? :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We could all come up with verses to support our views, but the real question may be who can make the most convincing movie to depict their perspective? :-)

Posted Image

(I enjoyed the objectivity in the rest of your post, but this part deserved a laugh.)

Pope Joan had something to say about the succession of authority.

Posted Image

That's amusing. I read the book Pope Joan by Donna Woolfolk Cross about two and a half years ago, and absolutely LOVED it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems Catholics take a lot of heat from Mormons. However, I'd suggest Mormons should thank the Catholics, specficially the Monks for keeping The Bible alive through time.

Hey Inquisitive - just fyi, I have actually made this exact point as a Gospel Essentials teacher. In the lesson about the restoration, where we talk about the apostacy, I told my class "After the apostles were martyred, the organization of Christ's church basically went away. Eventually, some government leader grabbed the reigns, when Emperor Constantine of the Roman Empire declared himself the head of Christ's church. Catholics point to him as their first Pope. But before you go talking smack against Catholics, I want you all to think about something. Yes, the organization Christ put into place was gone. Yes, the heavens were sealed, and there was little in the way of direct revelation from God to Man. But there were still good people trying to do good things. There were still righteous, God-fearing individuals doing the best they could to let people know the Good News of Christ, and keep an organization together. Before we harp on Catholics, we need to keep in mind who assembled the Bible, and preserved it across the millenia. We can sit back and talk about errors and omissions and contradictions in the bible until we're blue in the face - but at the end of the day, the only reason we have the Bible today at all, is because a bunch of Catholics saw the reality and divinity of Christ in it's pages, and sought to preserve it."

Human beings in general, fall into a trap of playing the "us vs. them" game. This isn't specific to Mormons or Catholics or even religion. Life looks brighter when we take some wise words from a guy who told us to "Love thy neighbor as thyself."

Good to meet you neighbor.

LM

(Oh - by the way, we believe in the apostacy because the Bible tells us about it.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Loudmouth! (Great name btw)

I read the link you provided and the thing I get in the NT is how general everything is regarding the Apostasy. One of the problems I have with The Bible is how easy it can be to read into things based upon ones faith. A Baptist and a Mormon can read a verse and come away with completely different meanings. Some might read and say an Elder has to be married while others will read and say those same verses refer to a Bishop.

Does the Book of Mormon discuss the Apostasy?

Do Mormons believe the Catholic Church was true before the Apostasy as Catholics say they are the church established by Christ upon the Apostles?

I like what you said about The Bible Loudmouth. We are in complete agreement on that one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

I was Catholic now I'm LDS. I love the Catholic Church. I always will.

There's a book called the Great Apostasy. You should try to get a copy of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the problems I have with The Bible is how easy it can be to read into things based upon ones faith.

Funny you should mention that. There was a kid, only 14 years old, who had this same issue. He wrote his thoughts down, and here's an excerpt:

...While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.

At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, that is, ask of God. I at length came to the determination to “ask of God,” concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would give liberally, and not upbraid, I might venture.

This VERY issue led to the establishment of the LDS Church.

The full story that the excerpt came from can be found HERE, and is an easy read and a very good place to begin research on the Church. For everything hinges on Joseph Smith:

If he did, in fact, experience the things he claimed (seeing Heavenly Father and JEsus Christ, receiving an ancient record and translating it, etc) - then all of the doctrine of the LDS Church is true. If he was a charlatan, however, then it all comes tumbling down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Prodigal Son. I am familiar with Joseph Smith but I still have some reservations about him. I've been reading the Book of Mormon and doing some research on Joseph Smith. Smith is a polarizing figure in the world of religion as I'm sure you already know. If you are on the Mormon side he is a great man, if you are on the non Mormon side, he is evil. I haven't decided where I come out on him yet and that's partly why I'm reading the Book of Mormon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Joseph Smith evil? I would say that most who don't know of LDS don't even know of Joseph Smith. Did you mean that "Other Christian religions" consider him evil? Let me ask Prison Chaplain. PC do you consider Joseph Smith evil? Perhaps misguided PC but not evil? I am curious.

Ben Raines

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Prodigal Son. I am familiar with Joseph Smith but I still have some reservations about him. I've been reading the Book of Mormon and doing some research on Joseph Smith. Smith is a polarizing figure in the world of religion as I'm sure you already know. If you are on the Mormon side he is a great man, if you are on the non Mormon side, he is evil. I haven't decided where I come out on him yet and that's partly why I'm reading the Book of Mormon.

Well, that polarization is pretty accurate. If he is of God, he's the best man to come along since Christ, Himself. If he's a scam, however, that makes him about as sinister as it gets.

Matthew 7:16 teaches us that we can judge a man by the fruits he produces. And, though much of the world considers us Mormons to be "fruits", I don't think that's what the Savior meant. :lol: Measuring Joseph Smith by the lasting fruits of his labors is the test Christ specified.

Good luck on your quest. I pray you'll listen to God and not Man as you pursue these truths.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IS,

How can one prove spiritual things? How can one prove a Catholic priest has priesthood from Christ in the first place? How does one prove the resurrection or miracles. You don't.

You can show historically where there are clear issues. If the Catholic Church were a full continuation of the primitive church, would it not also look like the early Church in the bible? Where are the apostles, prophets and elders? Where do they come up with beliefs such as indulgences, Inquisition, or baptism of infants? None of these are in the Bible.

In its history, there were times when the RCC had more than one pope (up to 3) and they each excommunicated one another. Which one then held the correct authority?

There is no evidence of papal authority prior to the 4th century, and only was truly established with Pope Gregory. Does one believe the Pope (not a position in the Bible) is the Vicar of Christ, or the Eastern Orthodox's Patriarch (which IS a calling in the Bible)?

Do you think that Roman Catholic Popes were inspired to begin indulgences, which modern Popes condemn? How about the Inquisition? Was it inspired or not? If the RCC was truly inspired, would the Church lead the way into the Dark Ages? Why did the Renaissance and Enlightenment not come about until after the Reformation? Why would the Catholic Church forbid the common person from reading the Bible for centuries?

While none of this proves/disproves Catholic authority, it does create questions regarding it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't forget, Jesus and Moses were also very polarizing figures in their time. Just because people demean an individual does not mean that the person is evil.

I think the Catholic Church has recently had some wonderful Popes. Great men who strive to serve Christ. I'm just not convinced of their claim to authority.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Prodigal Son. I am familiar with Joseph Smith but I still have some reservations about him. I've been reading the Book of Mormon and doing some research on Joseph Smith. Smith is a polarizing figure in the world of religion as I'm sure you already know. If you are on the Mormon side he is a great man, if you are on the non Mormon side, he is evil. I haven't decided where I come out on him yet and that's partly why I'm reading the Book of Mormon.

Joseph Smith evil? I would say that most who don't know of LDS don't even know of Joseph Smith. Did you mean that "Other Christian religions" consider him evil? Let me ask Prison Chaplain. PC do you consider Joseph Smith evil? Perhaps misguided PC but not evil? I am curious.

Ben Raines

I think you're being defensive and I also think that IS has a good point. Moroni prophesied using those exact words:

He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.

(emphasis added)

Interestingly, until reading IS's post, I've honestly never heard or read anyone use the exact word 'evil' in reference to Joseph Smith, with the exception of the above prophecy. (I recognize that IS was not stating for himself that Joseph was evil, but making a general observation.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Joseph Smith evil? I would say that most who don't know of LDS don't even know of Joseph Smith. Did you mean that "Other Christian religions" consider him evil? Let me ask Prison Chaplain. PC do you consider Joseph Smith evil? Perhaps misguided PC but not evil? I am curious.

Ben Raines

Here are the possibilities as I see them:

1. He was a prophet, and restored the gospel and the true church.

2. He was greatly disappointed with the churches of his day, sincerely sought the Lord's direction, perhaps had an initial and powerful spiritual experience. Then, he got carried away, and started infusing his prophecies with his own opinions. Due to the adulation of his followers, he continued on this course, eventually developing yet another denomination--one that deviated enough from the others, that it became something of a distinct religion.

3. He was a scam artist from the get-go, and deceived a whole lot of people. Caught up in a web of lies, he stubbornly refused to recant, even when it led to his death.

4. His spiritual encounters were with dark spirits, and he became a tool of Satan to deceive the faithful.

5. As Ben suggested, he was simply misguided.

6. Any combination of the above.

Now, some suggest that he was knowingly deceptive, or that he was a willing tool of Satan. Whether for money and fame, or for spiritual service to the Enemy, that would make him evil. Personally, I'm doubtful that either of these two explanations were prominent in Joseph Smith's thinking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now, some suggest that he was knowingly deceptive, or that he was a willing tool of Satan. Whether for money and fame, or for spiritual service to the Enemy, that would make him evil. Personally, I'm doubtful that either of these two explanations were prominent in Joseph Smith's thinking.

I sure hope not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this