White Horse Prophecy - is this real?

[Maureen]

Even Orson Hyde did not believe Joseph Smith said those exact words. I think sometimes early records are misinterpreted as to what a Prophet actually said and corrections by later Prophets have to be made....

I found this at lds.org:

What do we know about the purported statement of Joseph Smith that the Constitution would hang by a thread and that the elders would save it?

D. Michael Stewart, “I Have a Question,” Ensign, June 1976, 64–65

D. Michael Stewart, Brigham Young University, Department of History The documents show that Joseph Smith did prophesy a number of times that the United States and the Constitution would be imperiled and that the elders would have a hand in saving them. The first known record of the prophecy dates to July 19, 1840, in Nauvoo, when the prophet spoke about the redemption of Zion. Using Doctrine & Covenants 101 as a text, he said, “Even this nation will be on the verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the Constitution is on the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction.” (Joseph Smith Papers, LDS Church Historical Archives, Box 1, March 10, 1844.)

There are also other documents in Church History files that show that five different early Saints recorded some remarks by the Prophet Joseph Smith on this same prophecy, perhaps voiced by the Prophet a number of times in a number of ways after 1840. Parley P. Pratt wrote in 1841 that the prophet said, “The government is fallen and needs redeeming. It is guilty of Blood and cannot stand as it now is but will come so near desolation as to hang as it were by a single hair!!!!! Then the servants goes [sic] to the nations of the earth, and gathers the strength of the Lord’s house! A mighty army!!!!!! And this is the redemption of Zion when the saints shall have redeemed that government and reinstated it in all its purity and glory!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!” (George A. Smith Papers, Church Archives, Box 7, Folder 5, January 21, 1841.)

James Burgess related that the Prophet, while addressing the Nauvoo Legion several miles east of Nauvoo in May 1843, said that “the time would come when the constitution and government would hang by a brittle thread and would be ready to fall into other hands but this people the latter-day saints will step forth and save it.” (James Burgess Journal, 1818–1904, Church Archives, vol. 1—found among loose sermons.)

Orson Hyde recalled that the Prophet predicted that “the time would come that the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow and said he, if the constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church. I believe this is about the language as nearly as I can recollect it.” (JD, 6:150.)

In a Pioneer Day celebration in Ogden in 1871, Eliza R. Snow said, “I heard the prophet say, ‘The time will come when the government of these United States will be so nearly overthrown through its corruption, that the Constitution will hang as it were by a single hair, and the Latter-day Saints—the Elders of Israel—will step forward to its rescue and save it.” (Journal History, MSF 143 #28, July 24, 1871.)

Jedediah M. Grant, during the dark days of threatened invasion of Utah by a federal army, referred to the Prophet’s utterance as he addressed a Mormon Battalion gathering in Salt Lake City, February 6, 1855.

“What did the Prophet Joseph say? When the Constitution shall be tottering we shall be the people to save it from the hand of the foe.” (Deseret News Weekly, January 19, 1870.)

On various occasions, Joseph Smith referred to the Constitution, the country, and destiny of the nation; and there is clear evidence that he anticipated future peril. Furthermore, he pronounced the prophecy at various times and places. Perhaps he himself interchanged the simile “on the brink of ruin,” “hang by a brittle thread,” “hang by a single hair,” etc., to describe the anticipated crisis. It is also clear that the redeemers or rescuers of the Constitution were to be either the Saints generally or priesthood officers specifically.

Since no particular time was given for fulfilling this prophecy, members of the Church have often wondered about its timing. The prophecy clearly indicates a single, identifiable episode yet to come. However, it is helpful for us to constantly be on guard against threats to the central elements of the Constitution. It is not wise to sit by and think that the protection of the Constitution is the problem of someone else at some other time.

In support of this view of “constant vigilance,” it is most instructive to note that Church leaders have seen the Constitution imperiled a number of times. Brigham Young, reflecting on the prophecy of 1868, expressed: “It would not be many years before these words come to pass.” (JD, 12:204.) President John Taylor in 1884 declared: “It may be nearer … than some of us think.” (JD, 25:350.) President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., warned in 1942: “Whether it [the Constitution] shall live or die is now in the balance.” (Conference Report, October 1942, p. 58.)

Students of history and the Constitution know that the Constitution has been imperiled a number of times in its history and has been saved a number of times both by vigorous political action and by vocal public opinion.

Thus, rather than simply wait for the one time when the Constitution shall hang by a thread, Latter-day Saints must continually be vigilant. Our commission to save the Constitution is, like salvation, a continuing task, and Church leaders have pointed out the tools available: analysis of constitutional principles, personal study of the history of our nation, reading the Constitution to children at home and in schools, teaching them self-sacrifice—the principle that makes freedom possible—teaching them their obligations as mature citizens, recognizing and resisting ideologies that threaten constitutional principles, and developing loyalty to principle rather than to men or parties.

Politicians and statesmen must grapple with tough questions, painstakingly familiarize themselves with vital issues, and be decisive; but finally, an antidote to abusive government, to corruption, and to constitutional peril lies in private character. Humble people in prayerful homes will contribute immeasurably to a lasting constitutional government. And it should be apparent that consistent efforts in these areas will prepare us both to continually protect the Constitution and to prepare us for possibly a yet future rendezvous with our Constitution’s destiny.

M.

[pam]

Since this thread is concerning the "White Horse Prophecy" here is a statement concerning it by the Church:

Newsroom Blog: Church Statement on "White Horse Prophecy" and Political Neutrality

Two weeks ago The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints issued a statement regarding the so-called "White Horse prophecy" in response to news inquires regarding comments made by an Idaho politician. The matter has received additional coverage in the news media of late and so we reiterate that statement here:

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is politically neutral and does not endorse or promote any candidate, party or platform. Accordingly, we hope that the campaign practices of political candidates would not suggest that their candidacy is supported by or connected to the church.

"The so-called 'White Horse Prophecy' is based on accounts that have not been substantiated by historical research and is not embraced as Church doctrine."

[Maureen]

..."The so-called 'White Horse Prophecy' is based on accounts that have not been substantiated by historical research and is not embraced as Church doctrine."...

I wouldn't be surprised if D. Michael Stewart of the BYU, Department of History disagreed with this statement; since he obviously has done some research - or he did about 35 years ago. :)

M.

[pam]

Whether he disagrees or not..the current stand is it is not embraced as doctrine. So that is what I shall go by.

[marts1]

"The so-called 'White Horse Prophecy' is based on accounts that have not been substantiated by historical research and is not embraced as Church doctrine."

.....This would be why I've never heard of it.

[Maureen]

.....This would be why I've never heard of it.

I don't know, if you around in the '80's you would have heard about it.

M.

[Wingnut]

Since this thread is concerning the "White Horse Prophecy" here is a statement concerning it by the Church:

Newsroom Blog: Church Statement on "White Horse Prophecy" and Political Neutrality

Two weeks ago The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints issued a statement regarding the so-called "White Horse prophecy" in response to news inquires regarding comments made by an Idaho politician. The matter has received additional coverage in the news media of late and so we reiterate that statement here:

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is politically neutral and does not endorse or promote any candidate, party or platform. Accordingly, we hope that the campaign practices of political candidates would not suggest that their candidacy is supported by or connected to the church.

"The so-called 'White Horse Prophecy' is based on accounts that have not been substantiated by historical research and is not embraced as Church doctrine."

That's already been linked to twice in this thread. Maureen continues to ignore it.

I wouldn't be surprised if D. Michael Stewart of the BYU, Department of History disagreed with this statement; since he obviously has done some research - or he did about 35 years ago. :)

M.

I guess it's a good thing that the opinion of D. Michael Stewart of the BYU, Department of History doesn't really matter, since he's neither prophet nor other General Authority.

[marts1]

Joined about 35 years ago and was not into computers until not too long ago. If it was not official doctrine or history, chances would be almost nil that it would have been taught in church.

[Maureen]

That's already been linked to twice in this thread. Maureen continues to ignore it.

So what? What does that link have to do with posting on this thread or not.

I guess it's a good thing that the opinion of D. Michael Stewart of the BYU, Department of History doesn't really matter, since he's neither prophet nor other General Authority.

At least Mr. Stewart offered more information concerning the "once prophecy" than the statement did, IMO.

M.

[Maureen]

Joined about 35 years ago and was not into computers until not too long ago.

Not too many people were into computers 30-35 years ago, but there were still books and magazines. Obviously others have heard of this supposed prophecy; they've been mentioned in this thread.

If it was not official doctrine or history, chances would be almost nil that it would have been taught in church.

It doesn't appear to be official any longer but at one point in time, others, including a prophet, thought it was official.

M.

[Maureen]

http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/whitehorse.pdf...

I've skimmed this link and have come to the conclusion that the accounts of this White horse prophecy offered by Edwin Rushton and Theodore Turley are very different than what I've shown in posts 13 and 26. In fact George Cobabe comes to this conclusion:

SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS

It cannot be said that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints accepts the White Horse Prophecy as official or binding. It also is true that nothing in the so- called prophecy is quoted or used by authorities in the Church. It is true that there is language the so-called prophecy that is found elsewhere in historically verifiable records.

The prophecy that contains the concept of the Constitution of the United States being challenged and then saved by the Elders of the Church is accepted as a prophecy of Joseph Smith. There is evidence that the he repeated it more than once and it was commonly understood and accepted. It has been quoted many times by leaders of the Church. It is nevertheless not part of the Church canon and is therefore not binding upon the membership of the Church as a whole.

It is very clear that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not believe that there will be a time when the government of the United States or the world will be assumed by the Church or its members. Rather it is the clear expectation that the Constitution and the government of the United States will survive the future predicted crisis because of the support that will be given by the Elders of the Church.

So, I can agree that what Rushton and Turley have offered is questionable but the specific "Constitution" prophecy seems to be valid. It may not be considered canon but it is accepted as a prophecy of JS by the LDS church.

M.

[rameumptom]

I think we need to remember the difference between teachings in the Church and official Church doctrine. They are not equal. There are many things that early Church leaders taught that may or may not be considered doctrine today, yet they are still had in the early teachings.

That said, I think more GAs accept the concept of the "Constitution hanging by a thread" teaching than other portions of the White Horse Prophecy.

In the WHP it mentions the Constitution hanging by a "fine silk thread", and then it "will be preserved and saved by the efforts of the White Horse and the Red Horse, who will combine in its defense."

The White Horse would go to the mountains for safety, find minerals and become wealthy. "You will see silver piled up in the streets. Gold will b of little value even in a mercantile capacity"

"The time will come when the banks in every nation will fail and only two places will be safe where people can deposit their gold and treasures. These places will be the White Horse and England's vaults. A horrible revolution will take place in the land of America, such as never has been seen before; for the land will literally be left without a supreme government, and every species of wickedness will run rampant....The most terrible scenes of murder and bloodshed and rapine that have ever been looked upon will take place. Peace will be taken from the earth and there will be no peace, only in the Rocky Mountains. This will cause many hundreds of thousands of the honest in heart to gather there; not because they would be saints but for safety and because they would not take up the sword against their neighbor."

It talks of famine because there are so many to be fed.

"The Turkish Empire (Arab lands/Middle East) or the Crescent will be one of the first powers that will be disrupted, for freedom must be given for the Gospel to be preached in the Holy Land." The Lord placed the best blood in England and gave it great power for 1000 years to be a balance against Russia's hegemony and prevent it from overtaking the world.

"The two Popes, Greek and Catholic, will come together and be united." The revolution in the USA will become so terrible that England, which will have been neutral, will step in to stop the shedding of blood. England and France will join in the invasion, and it will seem they've taken over the nation.

The "Black Horse" will join with England for fear they will become slaves again. During this time the "White Horse will have gathered strength sending out Elders to gather the honest in heart among the Pale Horse, or people of the USA, to stand by the Constitution of the US, as it was given by inspiration of God. In those days God will set up a kingdom, never to be thrown down, for other kingdoms to come unto. And these kingdoms that will not let the Gospel be preached will be humbled until they will." There is significant blood of Israel in Europe, and so they will submit to the Kingdom of God, with England giving in last. "Peace and safety in the Rocky Mountains will be protected by a cordon band of the White Horse and the Red Horse."

The Messiah will come among the people of Zion in a natural way, so that most will not know he is even going there. "The temple in Jackson County Missouri will be built in this generation." There will be many to build it with fine stones and gold. The Ten Tribes will help build it. "When you see this land bound with iron you may look toward Jackson County."

"There is a land beyond the Rocky Mountains that will be invaded by the heathen Chinese unless great care and protection are given. Where there is no law there is no condemnation, and this will apply to them."

"Power will be given to the White Horse to rebuke nations afar off, and they will be one with the White Horse, but when the law goes forth they will obey; for the law will go forth from Zion. The last great struggle Zion will have to contend with will be when the whole of the Americas will be made the Zion of our God. Those opposing will be called Gog and Magog (some of the world led by the Russian Czar) and their power will be great, but all opposition will be overcome and then this land will be the Zion of our God."

[/unquote and unparaphrase]

So, there is much more to the White Horse Prophecy than just a prophecy about the Constitution hanging by a thread. The White Horse is the LDS Church and Kingdom of God upon the earth. It, with the Pale Horse (Native Americans) will defend the Constitution after a great collapse of the nation, when the banks all fail. (sound familiar or ominous?).

Wars will be everywhere in the USA, making the Civil War actually seem civil. Safety will only be had in the Rockies and a few other locations where Saints set up places of safety. Little by little the wicked will destroy themselves, and allow the Saints to take over more and more of America. Elders will preach the gospel, and good people will repent. Many in Europe will accept Zion as the standard, and will follow it. Others will follow after Russia's and China's lead. It looks like China will try to attack western USA, but will be expelled if members are diligent.

Finally, all of the Americas will become Zion. Jackson County will become a gathering place, and the temple will be built. The earth will be primed for Armageddon and the 2nd Coming.

[MsQwerty]

The silly non-issues we Mormons get our knickers in a twist over

White Horse Prophecy - not endorsed by CURRENT church leaders. Doesn't matter who may or may not have alluded to it in the past (and it looks like no-one really has). As Elder Bruce R. McConkie said when after the 1978 Revelation that seemed to contradict many of his views on race - "Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or George Q. Cannon or whoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world."

For those who lack understanding on this issue, this link has probably been posted before but please read: http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/whitehorse.pdf

[Wingnut]

So what? What does that link have to do with posting on this thread or not.

Because you're using the argument that wht President Benson said is more valid than what President Joseph F. Smith or Joseph Fielding Smith said, because he was living but they weren't, yet you're continuing to ignore the current statements on the matter.

At least Mr. Stewart offered more information concerning the "once prophecy" than the statement did, IMO.

M.

It still doesn't make him a prophet or leader of the Church in any sort of position to make an official statement on the matter.

For those who lack understanding on this issue, this link has probably been posted before but please read: http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/whitehorse.pdf

Twice, I think already.

[pam]

Disclaimer..this is my opinion only and my 2 cents for what it's worth.

I think sometimes we get so caught up in what Prophets in the past have said and fail to remember that we have even more recent Prophets whose words we should listen to. Before there are misunderstandings, I'm not saying that the words of former Prophets don't hold any bearing on issues.

Many things were said by past leaders as they were their thoughts based on information, knowledge, and understanding during THEIR time.

What's important to remember is, we have a current Prophet and GA's that would not lead us astray. We've been promised this. Should they stray from this they will immediately be relieved of their position. This we've been promised as well.

My own mother has said she has been shaken to find out that something she has learned all her life concerning the "hanging by a thread" only to find out is not substantiated. I just wonder why? I kind of thought that's what we have modern Prophets and General Authorities for and that's to give us revelation and understanding concerning the times we currently live in.

It makes no difference to me if the White Horse Prophecy is accurate or not. Whether the constitution will hang by a thread or not. We know that in the last days, terrible things will happen. Things that right now we just can't comprehend. But we've also been promised that if we live righteously, Heavenly Father will protect us and allow His work to move forward. Us being used generically as in the Church. His work will move forward no matter what.

We know there will be earthquakes, wars, rumors of wars, famines, pestilence and a multitude of other calamities. It's part of the plan. But we are to prepare ourselves for these things. If we do our part, Heavenly Father will bless us.

Whether there will be a black horse and a white horse matters not to me at all. What matters is what we do with the warnings of preparation both temporally, physically and spiritually.

[Maureen]

...So, there is much more to the White Horse Prophecy than just a prophecy about the Constitution hanging by a thread....

That's just it, the two are very separate. The so-called White Horse Prophecy is different than the "Constitution hanging by a thread" prophecy.

The White Horse prophecy is not accepted while the "Constitution hanging by a thread" is accepted. From the FAIR link:

It is clear that the text of the White Horse Prophecy as reported by Theodore Turley and Edwin Rushton and recorded in the diary of John J. Roberts is not accepted as verified, binding prophecy by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It has never been accepted and it has been soundly denounced.

CREDIBILITY OF THE CONCEPT THAT THE CONSTITUTION WILL HANG BY A THREAD

The idea of the “hanging by the thread” is not mentioned, pro or con, in either President Smith’s or Elder McConkie’s comments. Furthermore, my research has shown that this idea has been accepted and commented on favorably by many authorities in the Church. While the commonly reported text of the White Horse Prophecy is condemned as false and unreliable, the idea of the thread and the Constitution can be demonstrated to have come from other, more reliable sources tha[n] the White Horse Prophecy.

Check out the FAIR link, it explains everything.

M.

[Maureen]

Because you're using the argument that wht President Benson said is more valid than what President Joseph F. Smith or Joseph Fielding Smith said, because he was living but they weren't, yet you're continuing to ignore the current statements on the matter.

The current statement is only talking about the so-called White Horse prophecy and not the "Constitution hanging by a thread" idea. They are two totally different prophecies. The LDS church, including Benson and JF Smith, accepts the "Constitution hanging by a thread" prophecy:

Joseph F Smith in General Conference October 1912 said:

Now, these are the commandments of God, the principles contained in these commandments of the great Eternal are the principles that underly the Constitution of our country and all just laws. Joseph Smith, the prophet, was inspired to affirm and ratify this truth, and he further predicted that the time would come, when the Constitution of our country would hang as it were by a thread, and that the Latter-day Saints above all other people in the world would come to the rescue of that great and glorious palladium of our liberty. We cannot brook the thought of it being torn into shreds, or destroyed, or trampled under foot and ignored by men.28

It still doesn't make him a prophet or leader of the Church in any sort of position to make an official statement on the matter.

No, but his words are located at lds.org, so they must have some validity to them.

M.

[Maureen]

...So perhaps you would like to explain how Elder Benson could have so much confidence in a prophecy that was denounced by two others in General Conference.

The FAIR link that you provided explains quite well that President Benson was speaking about the "Constitution hanging by a thread" prophecy while the other two prophets were actually talking about this so-called White Horse prophecy - two very different prophecies.

M.

[Snow]

It is the latter. Scholars have found no solid evidence for its authenticity.

HiJolly

It cannot be said that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints accepts the White Horse Prophecy as official or binding. It also is true that nothing in the so- called prophecy is quoted or used by authorities in the Church. It is true that there is language the so-called prophecy that is found elsewhere in historically verifiable records.

The prophecy that contains the concept of the Constitution of the United States being challenged and then saved by the Elders of the Church is accepted as a prophecy of Joseph Smith. There is evidence that the he repeated it more than once and it was commonly under- stood and accepted. It has been quoted many times by leaders of the Church. It is nevertheless not part of the Church canon and is therefore not binding upon the membership of the Church as a whole.

It is very clear that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not believe that there will be a time when the government of the United States or the world will be assumed by the Church or its members. Rather it is the clear expectation that the Constitution and the government of the United States will survive the future predicted crisis because of the support that will be given by the Elders of the Church.

http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/whitehorse.pdf

Edited March 21, 2010 by john doe
fixed annoying hyphens and spaces from paste

[Maureen]

Snow has posted exactly what I posted on Post #36 - the White Horse explanation found in the FAIR link.

M.

[john doe]

Since we have now come to an agreement on this, are we ready to close it?

[Moksha]

The ridiculous story about the "red horse," and "the black horse," and "the white horse," and a lot of trash that has been circulated about and printed and sent around as a great revelation given by the Prophet Joseph Smith, ...

Did Joseph F. Smith ever make a definitive ruling about Palominos? Putting myths to rest certainly takes the fun away from those who can weave Gospel oddities into even odder pronouncements.

[Maureen]

Since we have now come to an agreement on this, are we ready to close it?

What a bunch of party-poopers.

M.

[MarginOfError]

Since we have now come to an agreement on this, are we ready to close it?

Not yet...just want to reiterate that Harry Reid fulfilled the prophecy by saving the Constitution!

Okay, now I'm done.

[Blackmarch]

I found this: Constitution to Hang by a Thread Believe All Things

It seems the teaching began with this:

I don't know how it came to be known as the "White Horse" prophecy off the top of my head.

As Joseph Smith himself told us many many times, a prophet is not a prophet unless he is speaking in the name of the Lord. So this originating speech, while it does seem to have it's basis in revelation, could have been largely flavored with Joseph Smith's personal opinions.

the constitution of this nation has failed severely on various occasions. It's quite possible that it is a prophecy of the civil war (the bolded part)...

however the whole thing appears to cover a good span of time. It also may be that it has yet to be fulfilled.