Why some won't & shouldn't get into heaven

[Traveler]

In our zeal to encourage evangelism, missions and the type of holiness that promotes God's Kingdom, we sometimes appear to say that those who die without a clear-cut evangelical grasp on God, Jesus and salvation will definitely be damned to hell. "Win the lost--at any cost!" On the one hand, I frankly do not want to back track or diminish the sense of urgency that all Christians should have for lost souls. On the other, I declare my faith that God is fair. While the Old Testament does call for punishments against those who sin in ignorance, those sanctions were less severe than for intentional wrong-doing. So, we evangelize, hoping to usher folk into God's kingdom. On the other hand, I do believe that no one damned to hell, was so purely out of ignorance. God read rebellion in those hearts. He knew that should that damned soul enter heaven it would bring misery to everyone.

The LDS notion is to show forth the light of Christ within us as an example and allow others to choose if they want to be a part of what we represent or not. If we are a bad example - would that not be because we desire something different ourself? Therefore would it not be that individuals of simular light gather unto themselves by their own desire and choice?

What sense is there in winning a soul against their will? My gole as LDS is to make as clear as I can that doctrine I love and choose to live - those that love the same things - I believe will be gathered according to the prophesies given in scripture.

I suppose a feeble example would be the poor kid who gets a scholarship to a wealthy private school, but never fits in with the other students?

This thought applies better to the three kingdoms than to the sharp chasm between heaven and hell envisioned by most Protestants and Catholics.

I believe a better example is the person that comes to church and decides that for whatever reason this is not where they want to be on Sunday. They would be much happier watching the Super Bowl on TV or off doing something fun - anything but wasting their time with boring "Church" people. Many LDS I know do not attend church when they are on vacation for a variety of reasons. And so I believe that many will choose differently when they are not compelled. I do not believe anyone in heaven is there because they were forced there against their will. The more I have thought on this notion – it seems logical that G-d is not in the business of forcing anything on anyone.

There is another thought that is companion to my thinking I call the “fat” theory. Everybody say they want a lean mean strong healthy body. This is not rocket science. To have a strong healthy body one must eat healthy foods and engage in exercise to make their body strong. But many people hate eating healthy foods – they cannot stand a healthy meal. Likewise they hate exercising – they cannot stand exerting themselves. They regret being fat but their real love is crappy food and a sedate lifestyle. Only those that love healthy food and exercise will be strong and healthy. It is not about the destination – it is all about the journey.

Those that want a heaven with no effort will be happy with the heaven they get. Those that want a heaven where they can contribute will be happy with the heaven they get. Why would anyone think G-d will force someone into heaven?

The Traveler

Edited April 6, 2010 by Traveler

[marts1]

The thought I'm getting from many posts here is it dosen't matter how a person lives, thier going to end up in a place they want to be. This makes no gospel sense to me at all.

[GADBabaganoosh]

2 Nephi 9:13-14 " 13 O how great the aplan of our God! For on the other hand, the paradise of God must deliver up the spirits of the righteous, and the grave deliver up the body of the righteous; and the spirit and the body is restored to itself again, and all men become incorruptible, and immortal, and they are living souls, having a perfect fknowledge like unto us in the flesh, save it be that our knowledge shall be perfect.

14 Wherefore, we shall have a perfect bknowledge of all our guilt, and our uncleanness, and our nakedness; and the righteous shall have a perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, being clothed with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness."

You may not know whats happening right now, but in the day of ressurection and judgment, you will know. You will know what you repented of, and know what you did wrong, and when you are sent to your designated kingdom, you will know exactly why and accept it. I guess I wasn't too clear on it before.

[LocalFarms]

The thought I'm getting from many posts here is it dosen't matter how a person lives, thier going to end up in a place they want to be. This makes no gospel sense to me at all.

Not where they want to be but where they are happiest

[GADBabaganoosh]

Not where they want to be but where they are happiest

I second this statement! And add a scripture to it!

Mormon 9:4

" 4 Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell."

The kingdom you arrive in is the place for your maximum happiness, according to the decisions you made in this life.

[Moksha]

PC, how much would your applecart be upset if the Universalist take on the salvation of Mankind was the the correct choice?

[marts1]

I find it impossible to think that those who are trying and wanting to make it to the Celestial but end up in the terrestrial for example, will be glad they didn't make it. lol

[LocalFarms]

If we all went to the kindom we were trying for, the telestial kingdom would be pretty empty. Since we know there will be some who end up there and the terrestrial as well, we can assume that some will go to kingdoms where they didn't "try for". Do you believe that these will be unhappy there?

[Guest mysticmorini]

I find it impossible to think that those who are trying and wanting to make it to the Celestial but end up in the terrestrial for example, will be glad they didn't make it. lol

it's like the child who wants to be a doctor or astronaut once he gets older and realizes the work it will take to succeed in those professions he lowers his goal

[Dravin]

I find it impossible to think that those who are trying and wanting to make it to the Celestial but end up in the terrestrial for example, will be glad they didn't make it. lol

I live in Utah, if I drive south to Mexico am I trying for Canada? This isn't a deer tag drawing in which people don't succeed through no action on their part, those who are trying for the Celestial Kingdom live Celestial law and if they are trying their best to live that law Christ's grace is sufficient for them (so there goes any flat tire analogies). If I'm not doing my best to live Celestial law then I'm not trying to get there any more than I'm trying to get to Canada if I drive south towards Mexico.

And if someone is given a bum map and a bad compass they are still trying their best to get to Canada and that is where Christ's grace comes in, and work for the dead.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Dravin

[marts1]

If we all went to the kindom we were trying for, the telestial kingdom would be pretty empty. Since we know there will be some who end up there and the terrestrial as well, we can assume that some will go to kingdoms where they didn't "try for". Do you believe that these will be unhappy there?

According to Joseph Smith's glorious vision of the telestial world, I would have to say a big no. :) I've often been very grateful for the knowledge of that vision.

[Guest mysticmorini]

I live in Utah, if I drive south to Mexico am I trying for Canada? This isn't a deer tag drawing in which people don't succeed through no action on their part, those who are trying for the Celestial Kingdom live Celestial law and if they are trying their best to live that law Christ's grace is sufficient for them. If I'm not doing my best to live Celestial law then I'm not trying to get there any more than I'm trying to get to Canada if I drive south towards Mexico.

i'll apologize in advance but i feel obligated to point out that if you were to drive south long enough you would in fact end up in canada :)

[marts1]

a disguised laugh there

[Dravin]

i'll apologize in advance but i feel obligated to point out that if you were to drive south long enough you would in fact end up in canada :)

Actually if you were to drive south far enough you'd find yourself very wet and unable to circumnavigate the globe in your car as you would either be swimming or drowned inside your car in the Pacific Ocean (or Atlantic Ocean if you don't head due south). That's why I said drive, not travel or fly.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Dravin

[Just_A_Guy]

PC, how much would your applecart be upset if the Universalist take on the salvation of Mankind was the the correct choice?

I daresay not nearly as much as will be the applecarts of those who used Universalist teachings to justify lives of hedonism.

[Guest mysticmorini]

Actually if you were to drive south far enough you'd find yourself very wet and unable to circumnavigate the globe in your car as you would either be swimming or drowned inside your car in the Pacific Ocean (or Atlantic Ocean if you don't head due south). That's why I said drive, not travel or fly.*

oh thats just a technicality my aqua car snowmobile will make the trip just fine.

[marts1]

Actually if you were to drive south far enough you'd find yourself very wet and unable to circumnavigate the globe in your car as you would either be swimming or drowned inside your car in the Pacific Ocean (or Atlantic Ocean if you don't head due south). That's why I said drive, not travel or fly.*

and I was thinking you had one them carboat thingamajigs

edit..oops too late :)

[Dravin]

oh thats just a technicality my aqua car snowmobile will make the trip just fine.

Additionally once you hit the South Pole you'd no longer be able to drive south, any direction you travel would be north. Meaning one could not, even with such a vehicle, only travel south and end up in Canada if one's starting location was Utah, at some point you'd have to travel north. :)

Edited April 7, 2010 by Dravin

[marts1]

Could take the example of people who are in jail. Most deserve to be there but most would rather be in a better place.

[prisonchaplain]

What sense is there in winning a soul against their will? My gole as LDS is to make as clear as I can that doctrine I love and choose to live - those that love the same things - I believe will be gathered according to the prophesies given in scripture.

I'm not sure I understand your question. Is it your impression that evangelicals try to force people to convert against their will?

[prisonchaplain]

PC, how much would your applecart be upset if the Universalist take on the salvation of Mankind was the the correct choice?

Completely...not because I relish the idea of souls languishing in hell. But rather, my understanding of the Fall of humanity, and Christ's redemptive work is so contrary to universalism. Humanity rebelled against God, choosing the knowledge of good and evil, with it's implied godhood and independence from the Creator, over the loving care and protection of God. Christ came to renew the original relationship--to crush the head of Satan's attempt to sow separation. Universalism denies free will and makes the whole story of scripture seem rather meaningless and hopeless. We wanted to rebell against God and his ways--but he wouldn't let us. Is that it???

[dorave]

Could take the example of people who are in jail. Most deserve to be there but most would rather be in a better place.

Like church? No, I don't think so, maybe a brothel or something.

Seriously tho, once your spirit and body separate, (death) changing your stance on good/evil is almost impossible.

[marts1]

Along the same line I believe all are meant and would repent if our eye's were opened and could see with pure knowledge the reason why we are hear, and we would all go back to live with our Father. It is because of lack of belief and the evil one and the want for the worldly things of this life that prevent this from happening.

Edited April 7, 2010 by marts1

[Traveler]

I'm not sure I understand your question. Is it your impression that evangelicals try to force people to convert against their will?

It is a general observation and applies to more than religion - things like politics and even parents teaching their children. The attitude that others will be punished and forced to accept judgments more "holy" and intelligent than theirs. The idea that if you do not conform I will make life miserable for you until you do conform. And Yes! it is my impression that Evangelicals believe G-d will force his will on all at the final judgment.

I view all this different. I believe the judgment of G-d will be a time of great good and rejoicing and much expression of compassion and mercy from G-d. Except for some that will weep and wail over the goodness that is extended to others (not them) that they do not think deserve it or forwhat ever excuse or doctrine are "worthy" of it.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

IMHO the very idea of hell as punishment is indeed a forcing of the will. At the Judgment the wicked will not be ushered into the place they have longed for...they will be cast into the place God prepared for the Devil and his minions. I suppose our disagreement is over whether God is Sovereign, and has the right to punish his creation on the one hand, and whether we were created for godhood, and so all (even unbelievers) have total individual sovereignty for all Eternity.