Researching a thought provoking question

[BDRichardson]

I'd like to enlist the help of all here. Either respond to this thread, or point me in the right direction to other, similar conversations that have happened in the past. I was talking to someone who asked:

"What is your best reason to convince someone to join the Church?"

"Why? Are you trying to convince someone?"

"Me."

I was caught off guard a little. This person is active. I started thinking about it, and began to wonder. I don't know if my brain is getting in the way, or what... but it's turning out to be a more thought provoking question than I first thought. So... I'm enlisting your help/comments to answer this question, point towards research or other similar topics on the Internet, etc.

For brevity's sake, I'll post a few of my next thoughts and initial responses in the next posts.

Thanks!

BDR

Edited April 7, 2010 by BDRichardson
changed "provocative" to "thought provoking"

[BDRichardson]

I thought I'd try to write an article or something called: "Why Church?" And did some prelim. research with Google for that phrase. David Feddes started on a tack that I thought was an interesting approach. Reverse logic. Answer a question with a question. Some folks hate that tack, but ... (here's a link to his radio broadcast: Why Church)

I thought it might be a good eliminate the reasons why NOT church, and I might be left with reasons FOR church.

So... why NOT church? Feddes gives lots of "good reasons" why not: Work (praise man vs. praising God), Extra recreation (sleep, vacation, sports), Extra chores (cut grass, wash car, shopping), Offended, Uncomfortable (lack of sociality), Problems (marriage, divorce, guilt, embarrassment), Nothing important happens there.

Then he gives his reasons FOR church: God says so (God’s house, family, bride, body), Community of believers (baptism), Teaching, Fellowship (peer accountability), Sacrament (Ordinances), Prayer, Dealing with problems (leadership advice), Opportunities for service

Immanuel Lutheran Church suggests several reasons why to go:

Why Church

Why food? Why shelter? Why community? Why service? In short, they suggest that the opportunities to provide service gives us a way to progress closer to God. Does not going to Church move someone further along in their progression?

The results for a study of why people change religious affiliations is here:

Religious Affiliation Changes | LDS Media Talk

They say the biggest reason is that faith fizzles and people stop believing and going. Not a very good reason why NOT church. Still... why FOR church? The same article lists two major reasons: 1) they enjoy the style of worship, and 2) they felt called of God.

I've always discounted the ... importance ... of the social aspect. I'm lightening up on my stance regarding that. At least feeling the Spirit and being called of God to GO to Church is a good reason.

And that's where I stopped... I'm hoisting the white flag, to see what you all say.

[JudoMinja]

Keep it simple. I would tell someone- join the church if you feel it is right, if you feel it is true.

Do you believe in God? That's step one.

Do you believe in Jesus Christ? That's step two.

Do you believe they visited Joseph Smith? That's step three.

If you believe these three things to be true, the rest follows. The Book of Mormon, the Priesthood, etc. Nothing else matters. What matters is whether they believe it to be right and true. If they believe Joseph Smith's vision was a lie, then it must follow that the Book of Mormon is a lie, etc etc.

Tell them to study it out in their mind and their heart. Personal revelation touches both.

What matters is that it is true. If it is true, join.

[BDRichardson]

Sound logic. Reason #1: Because it's true. Or rather, because you think it's true.

Meaning... it really happened. God exists, Jesus paid for sin, etc. And... this sentiment is spoken of by our leaders Pres. Hinckley said the same thing. Everything hinges on JS and what he claimed.

Good answer. Thanks!

BDR

P.S. Devil's advocate would say: Because I feel it's true vs. Because I feel it's not true.

Edited April 7, 2010 by BDRichardson
Thought of the other hand (Tevye style). Added the rather & the PS

[Gwen]

someone posted a link not to long ago that might fit with your question pretty well. a couple things i found on it that i found interesting....

http://staylds.com/docs/HowToStay.html

http://staylds.com/docs/WhyTheChurchIsAsTrue.pdf

[Blackmarch]

Keep it simple. I would tell someone- join the church if you feel it is right, if you feel it is true.

Do you believe in God? That's step one.

Do you believe in Jesus Christ? That's step two.

Do you believe they visited Joseph Smith? That's step three.

If you believe these three things to be true, the rest follows. The Book of Mormon, the Priesthood, etc. Nothing else matters. What matters is whether they believe it to be right and true. If they believe Joseph Smith's vision was a lie, then it must follow that the Book of Mormon is a lie, etc etc.

Tell them to study it out in their mind and their heart. Personal revelation touches both.

What matters is that it is true. If it is true, join.

I'd probably also ask if they want the blessings from such.

[Traveler]

I'd like to enlist the help of all here. Either respond to this thread, or point me in the right direction to other, similar conversations that have happened in the past. I was talking to someone who asked:

"What is your best reason to convince someone to join the Church?"

"Why? Are you trying to convince someone?"

"Me."

I was caught off guard a little. This person is active. I started thinking about it, and began to wonder. I don't know if my brain is getting in the way, or what... but it's turning out to be a more thought provoking question than I first thought. So... I'm enlisting your help/comments to answer this question, point towards research or other similar topics on the Internet, etc.

For brevity's sake, I'll post a few of my next thoughts and initial responses in the next posts.

Thanks!

BDR

My answer is very simple.

Because in my life quest for that which is good and true - I have not found something better.

The Traveler

[marts1]

I have found the greatest happiness comes from doing or being good. What better place to find how to do this then from church or God.

[NeuroTypical]

"What is your best reason to convince someone to join the Church?"

"Why? Are you trying to convince someone?"

"Me."

Hey - I've been that guy! :)

FYI, I didn't get a good answer right away, so I went inactive for 6 years. If it happens, don't sweat it - just love the guy.

In the end, here was my best reason: The only good reason to stay in the church, is you figure God wants you to. All the other reasons might sound nice, but they're far distant seconds to the main reason.

I had to spend 6 years growing into the person that could actually figure out what God wanted of me.

LM

[BDRichardson]

Thanks all... keep 'em coming if anyone has anything else. I already found the how-to-stay link and forwarded it to the subject.

I've also come to the conclusion that the best answer is:

#2 God wants me to

which was mentioned in the ldsmedia link. Nothing else seems to cut it, eh?

I like answer

#3 if they want the blessings from such

Someone else, on another forum provided that thought, too. Not a bad reason, either. Kind of like paying tithing as fire insurance, right?

The steps listed above in the 1st response are also quite deep, too. one leads to the other. Jesus to authority, etc. Probably the closest thing to a correct logical argument. Do you believe in God? Jesus? Authority? = Church.

#4 challenge: find something better

A slightly different tack to the why NOT church approach...

I always challenge people to question their testimony because "there's no witness until after the trial of your faith." Right? But still... a decent answer would be great. But... in retrospect that's nigh unto proof which can't happen and allow faith to be exercised. So... maybe the above is sufficient.

Hmmm....

Still thinking...

BDR

Edited April 7, 2010 by BDRichardson
expounded "quite deep"

[rameumptom]

You may also want to review Alma 32. It shows how a testimony of the word is developed over time. Alma compares it to a seed. If the seed is planted in good soil and nurtured, if it is a good seed, it will begin to grow. Yet, it still is not a tree bearing fruit.

With further care and nurturing, one sees the tender plant continue to grow and develop, bringing ever greater evidence. What evidences does it provide? Spiritual ones. Alma tells us that it is the "swelling motions" in the breast, or what we would call the burning bosom. But it is also an expanded soul, an enlightened mind, and it becomes "delicious" to us.

A fruit bearing tree takes years before it is mature and bearing much fruit. It requires patience and care, especially in the early stages. Christ's parable of the sower fits perfectly in here, as we need to ensure our hearts are "good soil" and that we do not allow weeds of distraction or doubt to choke out the little plant.

"By their fruits, ye shall know them." He will gain a testimony just like the rest of us. A little bit at a time, over time, with much effort and care given during that time.

[BDRichardson]

(Grumble grumble grumble)...

Ya, but I want it now...! Ha!

#6 Because it grows into something tangible (fruits).

[Gwen]

while reading the responses i had what i think is an interesting thought. lol the "fruit" comments. taking the metaphor a bit more literally... i don't claim to know a lot about gardening but i know many fruit trees require other trees of the same kind to produce fruit. they have to be in a grove, a single tree will die. i also know some varieties of fruit are most productive when they can cross pollinate with others varieties of the same fruit rather than all the exact same thing.

so we should stay in church cause we need the "grove" and variety of ppl to help us receive the best fruits the gospel has to offer? i don't suggest taking it literally and trying to cross pollinate with the entire ward, the bishop may not be to happy.

[BDRichardson]

Nice...

#7: Protection. Faster progress, insight (synergism, service opportunities).

[BDRichardson]

I've just had another thought related to the reverse logic. What about a reason FOR for every reason against? (Starting with Feddes' AGAINST's):

AGAINSTs -- FORs

Work (material gain) -- Charity (material loss/sacrifice)

Recreation (fun) -- Sacrifice (work, but service, something something?)

Extra chores (personal gain, to-dos) -- ?

Lack of sociality -- Accepting imperfections of others, understanding, growth?

Problems (marriage,divorce,embarrased) -- Not hiding self-imperfections, humility, ?

Nothing important happens there (apathy?) -- Creation mentality (anti-apathy?)

FORs -- AGAINSTs

God says so (calls, inspired) -- I know best (pride, anti-inspiration, intellect)

Community of believers (as above, plus teaching, fellowship, peer/leadership advice) -- lack of sociality (loner syndrome, lone tree, dealing with problems alone)

Ordinances (Sactrament, prayers, Authority?) -- No ordinances (heathenism? I don't need anyone )

Just a thought...

Still thinking...

BDR

[BDRichardson]

I'll "sum up" after a few more answers, and start to develop an idea for an argument/answer/reason...

[oisis]

I have enjoyed reading this post. Everyone said good things.

I don't live in any large LDS hub, and as such have talked with many people over the years as to why they do not believe in organized religion, even some who fell away from the LDS church. One common theme I keep seeing (and I don't pretend to see everything) is.... I was blessed with a spiritual experience in my conversion. They have not felt or recognized the spirit. I think most people who feel the spirit would love it. I was actually trying to study the BoM during my teenage years in order to prove it wrong, but when I felt the spirit I turned 180 degrees and began to love it. Joseph Smith once said something like, "If I had not experienced what I had, I would not believe it myself."

Alma 32: When I plant the seed I feel the spirit and I eventually reap more spirit, along with every other good thing. I have had times (like others... I can only guess) where I felt offended at church:(). I have come to a determination that I am going for my own worship and I hope and pray to be able to feel the spirit for it heals me of every hard and lonely feeling! Of course I have old and new friends at church too :)

[Moksha]

I think some people proselytize in order to affirm their own beliefs and repress their own doubts.

[Snow]

"What is your best reason to convince someone to join the Church?"

"

One word: REBATES.

[Dravin]

One word: REBATES.

I hated waiting 6-8 weeks for mine to come in the mail.