Purpose of Terrestrial and Telestial bodies.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Why do those spirits that receive a Terrestrial and Telestial glory need a body? Or is it just a reward, "glory" that serves no additional purpose. (please note * I am not asking about the reasons for receiving a body for this existence here on Earth or receiving a Celestial body)

In other words, for those Kingdoms alone, what is the benefit of the body beyond just a symbol of their glory? Is it really just a reward, so those people can enjoy some of the things they experienced here, like eating maybe? Or are there abilities that are gained by having a body after the test is over (again, not talking about those that have eternal increase)? Outside of eternal increase and having family relationships or even personal relationships which are not part of a Terrestrial or Telestial world existence, what additional feature does a physical body provide more than what a spirit can do by itself?

Whatever one says that is, by definition, one would have to say that the spirit is incapable of doing that. For example, if we say the added benefit is the ability to eat, well then we are saying the spirit for sure is not capable of eating. By defining the purpose or what is gained by having an eternal Terrestrial or Telestial body, we are defining the limitations of a spirit body. Or is the physical body just "glory" a status symbol that serves no other purpose? It is not to maintain memory of this life as we will have memory of all and knowledge of right from wrong in the spirit world before we receive an immortal body.

[MarginOfError]

Why do those spirits that receive a Terrestrial and Telestial glory need a body? Or is it just a reward, "glory" that serves no additional purpose. (please note * I am not asking about the reasons for receiving a body for this existence here on Earth or receiving a Celestial body)

In other words, for those Kingdoms alone, what is the benefit of the body beyond just a symbol of their glory? Is it really just a reward, so those people can enjoy some of the things they experienced here, like eating maybe? Or are there abilities that are gained by having a body after the test is over (again, not talking about those that have eternal increase)? Outside of eternal increase and having family relationships or even personal relationships which are not part of a Terrestrial or Telestial world existence, what additional feature does a physical body provide more than what a spirit can do by itself?

Whatever one says that is, by definition, one would have to say that the spirit is incapable of doing that. For example, if we say the added benefit is the ability to eat, well then we are saying the spirit for sure is not capable of eating. By defining the purpose or what is gained by having an eternal Terrestrial or Telestial body, we are defining the limitations of a spirit body. Or is the physical body just "glory" a status symbol that serves no other purpose? It is not to maintain memory of this life as we will have memory of all and knowledge of right from wrong in the spirit world before we receive an immortal body.

Quite simply, they get the body because it was part of the "second estate." They chose the Savior's plan, and part of that plan was receiving a physical body. Thus, a physical body is a guaranteed reward for all those who chose Christ's plan.

[Traveler]

In our mortal existence we are dominated by our physical surroundings but as we carefully consider revelation we learn that there is “order” and that there is direct relationship between divine individuals and their environment. Because of the fall the entire environment of man was affected and changed to match our physical mortal condition.

Often we view salvation as an individual thing and I believe that to be a mistake. As individuals we do have agency but we are also individuals within a structure. Our choices and agency is not just an individual choice but a choice of what we are a part of. In various kingdoms we are “fit” precisely to such environment. We are perfectly suited to that kingdom – even to our resurrection we are ideally suited to what we have made our purpose and those that we have chosen as our companions. There will be no round pegs in square holes.

The Traveler

[applepansy]

Thank you Traveler. You put the right words to my thoughts.

[Seminarysnoozer]

In our mortal existence we are dominated by our physical surroundings but as we carefully consider revelation we learn that there is “order” and that there is direct relationship between divine individuals and their environment. Because of the fall the entire environment of man was affected and changed to match our physical mortal condition.

Often we view salvation as an individual thing and I believe that to be a mistake. As individuals we do have agency but we are also individuals within a structure. Our choices and agency is not just an individual choice but a choice of what we are a part of. In various kingdoms we are “fit” precisely to such environment. We are perfectly suited to that kingdom – even to our resurrection we are ideally suited to what we have made our purpose and those that we have chosen as our companions. There will be no round pegs in square holes.

The Traveler

I understand and agree with what you are saying. ... that wasn't really the question though. The question pertains to what, specifically, are the benefits of a physical body in the Terrestrial and Telestial worlds. If you are trying to say that you have to have a body to be in those worlds then how did we exist as spirits in the presence of our Heavenly Father before? So, it's like needing scuba equipment to breath underwater? ... to fit the environment? That is what drove us to get an immortal body?

Again, by saying that, one is saying that a spirit without a body could not live there, right?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Quite simply, they get the body because it was part of the "second estate." They chose the Savior's plan, and part of that plan was receiving a physical body. Thus, a physical body is a guaranteed reward for all those who chose Christ's plan.

So, you are saying it is just part of our agreement and I understand that, but my question was a little more detailed than that. I understand that we needed a body to be exposed to knowledge of right and wrong but, again, I am asking about after that. What continued purpose does the body serve that the spirit alone could not satisfy for those that go into the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms? If you want to say, because that is what we agreed to, fine, I agree with that, but that doesn't answer the question. A reward usually has some added value, what is that value? Or is it just like a medal on the chest, the reward is the honor of having one?

Edited May 21, 2010 by Seminarysnoozer
typo

[Traveler]

I understand and agree with what you are saying. ... that wasn't really the question though. The question pertains to what, specifically, are the benefits of a physical body in the Terrestrial and Telestial worlds. If you are trying to say that you have to have a body to be in those worlds then how did we exist as spirits in the presence of our Heavenly Father before? So, it's like needing scuba equipment to breath underwater? ... to fit the environment? That is what drove us to get an immortal body?

Again, by saying that, one is saying that a spirit without a body could not live there, right?

The answer you seek is in D&C 93:33-34:

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

The answer you seek is in D&C 93:33-34:

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

The Traveler

So, related to my question, being in the Terrestrial kingdom is a fulness of joy?

I realize what I am asking probably doesn't have an answer, but I am curious why that is needed in those lower kingdoms. I can guess a little as to why the body is needed in a Celestial world where the possibility for eternal progression is there and the potential to become like God Himself. But, that scripture does not say what are the specific features of the body that make it a "fulness of joy" beyond what is felt or understood by the spirit alone.

[MarginOfError]

So, related to my question, being in the Terrestrial kingdom is a fulness of joy?

I realize what I am asking probably doesn't have an answer, but I am curious why that is needed in those lower kingdoms. I can guess a little as to why the body is needed in a Celestial world where the possibility for eternal progression is there and the potential to become like God Himself. But, that scripture does not say what are the specific features of the body that make it a "fulness of joy" beyond what is felt or understood by the spirit alone.

I think you're digging for answers that don't exist. In the premortal councils, we learned that having a physical body was better than not having a physical body. Having a physical body allows us to have a broader range of experiences.

When we agreed to follow the Savior, we were told that we had earned our "second estate" (the first estate being the spiritual body). Thus, the physical body is a reward for our choices prior to mortality. We've already earned the reward. Asking what it's purpose is in the lesser kingdoms of eternity doesn't really make sense, because the privilege of having a body for eternity isn't tied to our actions in mortality.

What is tied to our actions in mortality is whether or not we earn, for lack of a better term, a third estate. What form this estate will take, I do not know. It may be an endowment of power, or priesthood, or a new physical form (I don't particularly care what form it takes). But the short of it all is that all those who have earned their second estate will keep the second estate. Only a subset of those who earn the second estate will earn the third estate.

The only relationship between the second estate and the third estate is that to be a candidate for a third estate, you had to at least have earned the second.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think you're digging for answers that don't exist. In the premortal councils, we learned that having a physical body was better than not having a physical body. Having a physical body allows us to have a broader range of experiences.

When we agreed to follow the Savior, we were told that we had earned our "second estate" (the first estate being the spiritual body). Thus, the physical body is a reward for our choices prior to mortality. We've already earned the reward. Asking what it's purpose is in the lesser kingdoms of eternity doesn't really make sense, because the privilege of having a body for eternity isn't tied to our actions in mortality.

What is tied to our actions in mortality is whether or not we earn, for lack of a better term, a third estate. What form this estate will take, I do not know. It may be an endowment of power, or priesthood, or a new physical form (I don't particularly care what form it takes). But the short of it all is that all those who have earned their second estate will keep the second estate. Only a subset of those who earn the second estate will earn the third estate.

The only relationship between the second estate and the third estate is that to be a candidate for a third estate, you had to at least have earned the second.

They exist, we may not have them in any official form though. I am just pondering these things out loud. Isn't that what this forum is for?

Even you are calling it a "privilege" but you can't say why it is a privilege. I think that is a sensible question even if you don't.

I think it relates to the description of the Celestial body being one, Terrestrial body being another and the Telestial bodies being various as the stars vary. One can interpret that many ways but if one believes there is no specific attribute of the perfected immortal body that makes it different from what the spirit can do on it's own than that person would more likely interpret that description as meaning the worlds different. If there is some added trait given to the body depending on what Kingdom it belongs to then it could easily be seen as a different kind of body that one receives depending on the Kingdom. ... as an example of one of the reasons to pose this question.

[Just_A_Guy]

One can interpret that many ways but if one believes there is no specific attribute of the perfected immortal body that makes it different from what the spirit can do on it's own than that person would more likely interpret that description as meaning the worlds different. If there is some added trait given to the body depending on what Kingdom it belongs to then it could easily be seen as a different kind of body that one receives depending on the Kingdom. ... as an example of one of the reasons to pose this question.

Well, for example, it has been taught that a celestial body will be capable of producing offspring, whereas terrestrial or telestial bodies won't.

But even a telestial body is capable of sight, smell, taste, touch, and hearing. It can interact with, and act upon, physical matter, which AFAIK spirits can't usually do.

[mikbone]

Why do those spirits that receive a Terrestrial and Telestial glory need a body? Or is it just a reward, "glory" that serves no additional purpose. (please note * I am not asking about the reasons for receiving a body for this existence here on Earth or receiving a Celestial body)

I'll give it a go...

D&C 131: 7-8 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

This scripture is pretty kool. It states that there are 2 types of matter, spirit and physical. Maybe this dark energy that current scientist are trying to discover /elucidate is actually spirit matter.

With righteousness, knowledge, and responsibility members of God's family will be given power and authority over these different types of matter.

God has the ultimate power and can manipulate both spirit and physical matter to his will, and can create children both physically and spiritually.

Those of our spirit brethern that lost their first estate will never have the opportunity to manipulate physical matter.

Mortals can manipulate physical matter quite a bit. I can landscape my yard. Turn food into muscle, bone, or waste. And as a society we have split the atom.

Telestial beings will have the ability to manipulate both spirit and physical matter but they cannot create children. We don't know what kinds of authority and power that they will have, but I believe that they will continue to progress and learn up to a point. Look at the known universe. There is alot of space and matter out there. Who is to say that the son's of God whom do not make the Celestial Kingdom will not be able to experiment with a corner of the universe.

Terrestrial beings will have greater power and authority... what that is... I don't know.

Those that become like God the Father may be able to produce their own Universe, who knows.

I can't wait to learn how to make the Big Bang. :)

Edited May 21, 2010 by mikbone

[Seminarysnoozer]

I'll give it a go...

D&C 131: 7-8 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

This scripture is pretty kool. It states that there are 2 types of matter, spirit and physical. Maybe this dark energy that current scientist are trying to discover /elucidate is actually spirit matter.

With righteousness, knowledge, and responsibility members of God's family will be given power and authority over these different types of matter.

God has the ultimate power and can manipulate both spirit and physical matter to his will, and can create children both physically and spiritually.

Those of our spirit brethern that lost their first estate will never have the opportunity to manipulate physical matter.

Mortals can manipulate physical matter quite a bit. I can landscape my yard. Turn food into muscle, bone, or waste. And as a society we have split the atom.

Telestial beings will have the ability to manipulate both spirit and physical matter but they cannot create children. We don't know what kinds of authority and power that they will have, but I believe that they will continue to progress and learn up to a point. Look at the known universe. There is alot of space and matter out there. Who is to say that the son's of God whom do not make the Celestial Kingdom will not be able to experiment with a corner of the universe.

Terrestrial beings will have greater power and authority... what that is... I don't know.

Those that become like God the Father may be able to produce their own Universe, who knows.

I can't wait to learn how to make the Big Bang. :)

I appreciate your response. I think your ideas are similar to what I've considered the purpose of the body to be, to participate in God's work and even for those of the lower Kingdoms. It's not just to sit around all day. ... even the liars and murderers will participate in God's work. The other curious thing about it is that the spirit material is more fine and yet there is, seemingly, so much importance to obtaining control over less fine material, the physical. It would seem that the spirit being finer would automatically have dominion over the less fine material or that it wouldn't be as important as controlling the finer material. But it seems that it is a big part of our eternal existence to live forever connected to the physical realm and focus our efforts on physical realms, that that is a more glorious way to live than living in a world made of finer material.

[Traveler]

So, related to my question, being in the Terrestrial kingdom is a fulness of joy?

I realize what I am asking probably doesn't have an answer, but I am curious why that is needed in those lower kingdoms. I can guess a little as to why the body is needed in a Celestial world where the possibility for eternal progression is there and the potential to become like God Himself. But, that scripture does not say what are the specific features of the body that make it a "fulness of joy" beyond what is felt or understood by the spirit alone.

It is my personal belief and I have said this many times those Terrestrial individuals are there and that by their desrie - their choice - their agency - it is the fulness of their joy. It is the total of all that they can and will recieve of the Father - it is the best possible for them. It the light of the truth of noon day this is what they want - not because they have not understood something but because the considered and experienced all the G-d has to offer and this is what they truly want and in it is their joy. It is what they have desired from the beginning - it is what they have worked for - it is the heaven and glory they seek and have always really wanted. It is the extent of law by which they want and wish to live with forever.

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

They exist, we may not have them in any official form though. I am just pondering these things out loud. Isn't that what this forum is for?

Even you are calling it a "privilege" but you can't say why it is a privilege. I think that is a sensible question even if you don't.

I think it relates to the description of the Celestial body being one, Terrestrial body being another and the Telestial bodies being various as the stars vary. One can interpret that many ways but if one believes there is no specific attribute of the perfected immortal body that makes it different from what the spirit can do on it's own than that person would more likely interpret that description as meaning the worlds different. If there is some added trait given to the body depending on what Kingdom it belongs to then it could easily be seen as a different kind of body that one receives depending on the Kingdom. ... as an example of one of the reasons to pose this question.

Like you stated, in each state, glorified bodies are different. The physical body will subscribed to that environment for which it was intended. Neither can a terrestrial being stand in the presence of 1st level Celestial glorified being without a veil covering.

What is the purpose for 1st and 2nd level of the Celestial Kingdom? What is the purpose in sending those from the 1st and 2nd level to the Terrestrial Kingdom?

[Hemidakota]

I can't wait to learn how to make the Big Bang. :)

You may want to study how neurons come into being...

[Seminarysnoozer]

Well, for example, it has been taught that a celestial body will be capable of producing offspring, whereas terrestrial or telestial bodies won't.

But even a telestial body is capable of sight, smell, taste, touch, and hearing. It can interact with, and act upon, physical matter, which AFAIK spirits can't usually do.

I guess I was unaware that spirits could not act on physical matter. I was under the impression that there were many valiant spirits from the pre-existence that helped in forming this world. They must have just helped in ancillary jobs, like book keeping or whatever. So, our own spirit has no ability to act on our physical body by that argument.

[Intrigued]

They'll come in handy when they finally 'level up'. I hope at least

[mikbone]

I guess I was unaware that spirits could not act on physical matter. I was under the impression that there were many valiant spirits from the pre-existence that helped in forming this world. They must have just helped in ancillary jobs, like book keeping or whatever. So, our own spirit has no ability to act on our physical body by that argument.

Logically, it makes sense that a physical body would give a soul a great advantage in manipulating physical matter.

But current doctrine implies that Jehovah (pre-embodied) Jesus Christ organized the physical creation whereas God the Father (a resurrected celestial being) planed the spiritual creation... Also Satan has been given dominion over the seas.

When the brother of Jared commanded the Mount Zerin to move, the physical element that composed the mountain obeyed the faith of Mahonri and honored Jehovah, and it moved. Ether 12:30

I don't know how much physical creation that Jehovah actually performed to create our Earth. It's possible that Jehovah made the 'big bang'. Or that Jehovah was given jurisdiction over a star that went supernova and we are the result of the re-organization of that matter. We don't know.

Jehovah carved the 10 commandments with his finger, Exodus 31:18. And He touched the stones that Mahonri presented to him imbuing the stones with the power to give forth light Ether 3:6.

I still haven't ruled out the possibility that Jehovah possessed a body during our pre-mortal existence. But thats another topic altogether.

[Still_Small_Voice]

What is the purpose for 1st and 2nd level of the Celestial Kingdom?

I think the first and second degrees of the celestial kingdom are preparatory states for exaltation in the highest degree of glory. But there are those who choose to remain eternally single and will therefore never go on to their exaltation.

[Still_Small_Voice]

I still haven't ruled out the possibility that Jehovah possessed a body during our pre-mortal existence. But thats another topic altogether.

I don't think that is a correct doctrine according to the Book of Mormon:

14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters . . .

16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

-- Ether 3:14 and 16

[Hemidakota]

Also Satan has been given dominion over the seas.

Cursing the 'waters' is not given to Satan. He has no power over the elements of the earth [see Revelations]. It is given to those angels or destroyers to be that enforcer.

Do you remember the journal entry, when one of the Saints thought he saw the devil on horseback on the river? Seeing it analogical power, it was not a devil or Lucifer; it was a destroyer [an angel] on horseback, enforcing the commandment of GOD. Joseph did not call it a devil or Lucifer after he sought further guidance but a destroyer.

This topic may require further research and ponderous prayer for clarity.

[Hemidakota]

I think the first and second degrees of the celestial kingdom are preparatory states for exaltation in the highest degree of glory. But there are those who choose to remain eternally single and will therefore never go on to their exaltation.

First estate yes, but this remains unclear with the second estate. I don't believe, not all who are married in the temple, being sealed with the fullness of the priesthood in mortality, will receive the highest portion of the third state at first for various reasons. Only those whom the Godhead have chosen out of this world, having there estate and calling made sure, considered to be the Firstborn, will have eternal salvation and by pass those who are lesser kingdoms, this also include the celestial kingdom. Like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, if they are not tasked with mortality, they will automatically move on with their progression.

Millions will make to the Celestial Kingdom, but few will make it to the highest portion of such. Analogy to the Bird of Prey, their many Hawks, some Eagles, but a few Condors.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I'll give it a go...

D&C 131: 7-8 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

This scripture is pretty kool. It states that there are 2 types of matter, spirit and physical. Maybe this dark energy that current scientist are trying to discover /elucidate is actually spirit matter.

With righteousness, knowledge, and responsibility members of God's family will be given power and authority over these different types of matter.

God has the ultimate power and can manipulate both spirit and physical matter to his will, and can create children both physically and spiritually.

Those of our spirit brethern that lost their first estate will never have the opportunity to manipulate physical matter.

Mortals can manipulate physical matter quite a bit. I can landscape my yard. Turn food into muscle, bone, or waste. And as a society we have split the atom.

Telestial beings will have the ability to manipulate both spirit and physical matter but they cannot create children. We don't know what kinds of authority and power that they will have, but I believe that they will continue to progress and learn up to a point. Look at the known universe. There is alot of space and matter out there. Who is to say that the son's of God whom do not make the Celestial Kingdom will not be able to experiment with a corner of the universe.

Terrestrial beings will have greater power and authority... what that is... I don't know.

Those that become like God the Father may be able to produce their own Universe, who knows.

I can't wait to learn how to make the Big Bang. :)

One more comment about this ... I think it is interesting that one of our main reasons to come to this Earth (and to keep our first estate) is to receive a body and yet there is not much written about the purpose of that body in the next life. It's as if we are born deficient and the way we are originally created, in the spirit form, is lacking as those who did not keep their first estate there was a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth. I'm sure a lot of that was just being cast out of God's presence but I wonder if they understood more than we do the significance of not having a body in the next life.

The ability to experience things in this life is important but I think it is of limited importance as there are many souls that won't have a chance to experience the mortal existence very long or in a limited way such as those that have congenital illness or die before they are 8. So, the value of the body must be something greater than just experience alone. I think it is along the lines of what has been said that there is some purpose to live in the physical realm and have some authority over it even for those in the Terrestrial and Telestial worlds. There is just not a lot written about why the body is necessary in those Kingdoms. It's kind of like being amphibian, born in the water but living on the land instead of just staying in the water, so to speak .... born spirit but living in a physical body.

[mikbone]

I don't think that is a correct doctrine according to the Book of Mormon:

14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters . . .

16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

-- Ether 3:14 and 16

Yeah, just keep reading on for another verse... In Ether 3:17 Moroni does add some particularily interesting commentary.