LDS Anarchist

[brooks]

Yes, I'm an anarchist..

With that out of the way, I'm not here to promote the ideals of anarchism.. I just want a little feedback.

I was born and raised a member of the church, and I'm trying to get myself back into going to my meetings, as I do have a testimony.

I have been mostly inactive for the past 8 years, but have had spouts of activity throughout.

During my young adult life, I have had several quarrels with members over my philosophical differences with them, but never once has it been because of me. I really don't like discussing politics or philosophy with members, mainly because of this. They are not going to change my mind, but I'm also not going to lie when the question arises. I have sought my bishops council on my beliefs, but I will not share his thoughts.. mainly because I want to hear what you, as other members think.

To clarify, I am an individualist/anarchist.. or what many refer to as an American Anarchist or evolutionary anarchist (no, I'm not an evolutionist.. it means that I believe that in order for the anarchist ideals to work, they have to be lived out by the individual, and that a gradual change will take place.) I am not really anti-government.. if you want one, have at it.. it's just not for me.

Please, I don't want to argue.. so if you don't really know what my ideology is, then ask a question or read up before responding if you are going to throw out the typical "anarchism is chaos", because it clearly isn't if you can look past what the movies portray.

Thanks.

[NeuroTypical]

I see you asking for feedback, but not exactly sure what subject you want feedback on. Could you clarify a little?

Welcome to the forum.

[dazed-and-confused]

welcome.

i agree with LM, i don't get a clear picture of what your ideology is. as for an argument, you won't get one from me. i may agree, or not, no hard feelings.

Edited June 13, 2010 by dazed-and-confused

[Kawazu]

Welcome.

What principles do you apply in your daily life, as an individualistic anarchist, in order to bring about the political and philosophical changes that you wish to see?

There are three types of anarchy which I have heard of before: anarcho-communism, anarcho-capitalism, and the anarcho-syndicates. Are any of these terms meaningful to you?

Also, I am unsure. What sort of feedback were you seeking to find? I would hate to take your thread in the wrong direction.

Regards,

Kawazu

[Daniel2020]

Throughout the ages the Lord has selected different forms of government at different times for his people. For example, the Lord gave both ancient Israel and the later Nephities a political system in which they were governed by judges.

He’s given the people of this land their own form of government. As the Lord said:

And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood. (D&C 101:80)

Anarchy (in all it's "flavors" is fundamentally the absence of law and government where ever man does as he sees fit) is a form of government. It is not the constitutional form of government the Lord has selected for us in this era; advocating anarchy goes against the will of the Lord.

The Lord’s position regarding government and the rule of law is well explained in the 12th Article of Faith. It states:

We believe in being subject to kings, magistrates and rulers. We believe in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law of the land.

Edited June 13, 2010 by Daniel2020

[Wingnut]

It is not the constitutional form of government the Lord has selected for us in this era;

So are you saying that the Church is only true in countries that have a constitutional form of government?

[brooks]

Thank you for your replies:

I'm sorry I didn't clarify better. I wanted people's opinion as to whether or not you believe that the general ideals of anarchism goes against the teachings of the Lord/prophets/church. In general, to what Daniel responded was the general question.

[brooks]

Welcome.

What principles do you apply in your daily life, as an individualistic anarchist, in order to bring about the political and philosophical changes that you wish to see?

There are three types of anarchy which I have heard of before: anarcho-communism, anarcho-capitalism, and the anarcho-syndicates. Are any of these terms meaningful to you?

Also, I am unsure. What sort of feedback were you seeking to find? I would hate to take your thread in the wrong direction.

Regards,

Kawazu

Question 1: I only set the example of the change that I wish to see. For example: I do not vote, nor do I advocate not voting. I practice an alternative to political structure with moral structure. In short, I recognize no authority above myself other than God, the Father. The moral structure I try to follow, is that of Christ. I hope I'm making that clearer than I feel like I am. I recognize Church Authority/Leaders, because I feel they are telling me what God wants me to hear.

Question 2: I would say anarcho-capitalist if I felt it were a legitimate form of anarchism.. but I feel to attach capitalist to the end is to tarnish the ideals with the flaws in man that creates the false notion that capitalism is either good or bad. As an idea, I think capitalism without authority would be fine, but throw imperfect people into the equation and it doesn't look as pretty.

Thanks for the questions, and allowing me to clarify.

[TheAngelPalmoni]

There is an LDS ANARCHY website lol. Wow well I was going to disagree that you could be an anarchist and be LDS but I think I am wrong now. After researching it a bit I tend to feel that I am pretty much an individual anarchist except for the 12th article of Faith. But since the ideals of an anarchist are to be self governing then I think that my personal individual governing would mostly fall within those lines.

Ya you can be Mason Mormon, Buddhist Mormon, why not an Anarchist Mormon, I think Joseph Smith would be right on board with you pretty much. He never governed he just taught people to govern themselves.

Good thing you have a testimony, maybe you should make you meetings more often as there isn't much time left...

Palmoni Scrolls

Hopefully you are self sufficient when the lights go out... lol

[HoosierGuy]

I am not really anti-government.. if you want one, have at it.. it's just not for me.

Thanks.

So are you a right wing anti-government wacko? Do your rules trump the rules of the U.S. and state governments?

[HoosierGuy]

As an idea, I think capitalism without authority would be fine, but throw imperfect people into the equation and it doesn't look as pretty.

Now that's scary. You don't recognize the Federal government over you? Capitalism without authority? Yikes. Do you like to pay taxes?

[brooks]

Anarchy (in all it's "flavors" is fundamentally the absence of law and government where ever man does as he sees fit) is a form of government. It is not the constitutional form of government the Lord has selected for us in this era; advocating anarchy goes against the will of the Lord.

...and sustaining the law of the land.

I have to disagree with the notion that Anarchism, in all it's flavors is the absence of law.. there is very much a law in my ideals, and it is very similar to the Constitution of the United States. I too believe we were given this wonderful document, but I feel like man has taken it in the wrong direction..

We were given a government limited like no other before it, with a Bill of Rights a short time later that ensured that we would be free to do as we seen fit, as long as we did not deprive others of the same freedom. The Constitution is not the power of government, it is the limits set on government by men that knew, through the inspiration of God, that men were and are free.. despite law, I am free.. nothing will change that. Only God has given me that, and only God can take that away.

People like to look at Anarchism as freedom to run wild, while they fail to see the maximum amount of responsibility it places on that freedom. It is not chaos, unless you irresponsible.

To that last little part on the 12th: I have often pondered that myself in my reflection. To sustain is to show support of. My counter to that would be:

Are we to sustain the Supreme Court Ruling that women should be allowed to have abortions? the legalization of harmful drugs? Taxation, which is theft, as we are not in contract, but under authority (that I feel is not justified) and force? Which is then used to fund many practices that are against the direct teachings of the church, such as the dependence on the state vs self sustaining hard work? Welfare is not charity.. it is the redistribution of your wealth to be spent in ways that you have no power of controlling.

I could go on, but I don't want to debate this with anyone. I truly appreciate your response.

Thanks.

[brooks]

Now that's scary. You don't recognize the Federal government over you? Capitalism without authority? Yikes. Do you like to pay taxes?

Read that authority as monopoly, and I would agree. Free-market ideals are all about competition, and in our false capitalistic system, there isn't any.

No, I do not recognize the Federal government as an authority over me.. nor the state.. nor my municipal government. If you give someone authority over you, you have none of your own.

No, I don't like to pay taxes. Do I pay taxes? only when I am forced, I do not allow it in (like any thief it forces it's way in.). Individualist/Anarchist believe in a gradual evolution of the theory into reality.. not a rebellion from the current system.

"be the change you wish to see in the world"

[brooks]

So are you a right wing anti-government wacko? Do your rules trump the rules of the U.S. and state governments?

Is that really what you have gotten out of that? The left/right "wing" that you live by does not suit me.

I have no rules, but I believe my authority trumps the government, yes.. because I am responsible for my actions. the government isn't going to go to jail for me if I kill someone are they? no, I am.

Did you even read anything that I wrote?

[brooks]

There is an LDS ANARCHY website lol. Wow well I was going to disagree that you could be an anarchist and be LDS but I think I am wrong now. After researching it a bit I tend to feel that I am pretty much an individual anarchist except for the 12th article of Faith. But since the ideals of an anarchist are to be self governing then I think that my personal individual governing would mostly fall within those lines.

Ya you can be Mason Mormon, Buddhist Mormon, why not an Anarchist Mormon, I think Joseph Smith would be right on board with you pretty much. He never governed he just taught people to govern themselves.

Good thing you have a testimony, maybe you should make you meetings more often as there isn't much time left...

Palmoni Scrolls

Hopefully you are self sufficient when the lights go out... lol

I did not know that there was a website for LDS Anarchist, I will have to check that out. Thank you.

I am as self-sufficient as I can be, I believe.. and I agree that I need to get to my meetings. I have actually been going for the past 4 months again without missing.. and I'm feeling good about that.

I follow the prophet very closely, and heed the warnings of the times. My food storage has been in rotation for about 5 years.

[Daniel2020]

I have no rules, but I believe my authority trumps the government

No, I do not recognize the Federal government as an authority over me.. nor the state.. nor my municipal government. If you give someone authority over you, you have none of your own.

In other words--contrary to the scriptures--you don't believe in "being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates." Nor do you believe in "obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." Edited June 13, 2010 by Daniel2020

[Kawazu]

Question 1: I only set the example of the change that I wish to see. For example: I do not vote, nor do I advocate not voting. I practice an alternative to political structure with moral structure. In short, I recognize no authority above myself other than God, the Father. The moral structure I try to follow, is that of Christ. I hope I'm making that clearer than I feel like I am. I recognize Church Authority/Leaders, because I feel they are telling me what God wants me to hear.

Question 2: I would say anarcho-capitalist if I felt it were a legitimate form of anarchism.. but I feel to attach capitalist to the end is to tarnish the ideals with the flaws in man that creates the false notion that capitalism is either good or bad. As an idea, I think capitalism without authority would be fine, but throw imperfect people into the equation and it doesn't look as pretty.

Thanks for the questions, and allowing me to clarify.

Have you ever heard of the term voluntaryist? It seemed like it would fit the ideas that you are describing. Voluntaryism is a political ideology centering on consent, property rights, and private agreement between individuals.

Hmm... I can't believe there is a website for LDS anarchists/Buddhists/and so on...

Edited June 13, 2010 by Kawazu

[LocalFarms]

The anarchy movement reminds me of the zealot movement that was going at the time of Christ's ministry. At this time there was a law that a roman soldier could ask anyone to carry a "talent" (which I believe to be about 75lbs) of gold up to one mile and they would have to, even on sabbath. Of course this, and many other laws like it, is what caused the zealot movement of the time. What did Christ say about this? He said that when one asked you to carry his talent a mile, you should carry it two.

[hordak]

Thank you for your replies:

I'm sorry I didn't clarify better. I wanted people's opinion as to whether or not you believe that the general ideals of anarchism goes against the teachings of the Lord/prophets/church. In general, to what Daniel responded was the general question.

No , free will is the most important aspect of the plan, that is why satans was rejected, and no one believes in free will more then an Anarchist.

[MarginOfError]

In other words--contrary to the scriptures--you don't believe in "being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates." Nor do you believe in "obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."

Why can't he subscribe to

"I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves."

Quoted by John Taylor, in Journal of Discourses, 10:57-58

When asked his approach to governing his people at Nauvoo, Illinois..

Edited June 13, 2010 by MarginOfError

[Elgama]

This is my favourite libertarian anarchist not sure if that is still how he describes himself lol this guys knowledge of my country's law is unreal, managed to save a hospital using a 900 year law etc. I listened to most of it couldn't find a swear word, ok yes there is one towards the end so anyone following the liink BEWARE its on the bit where he interviews the arms dealer

although this did rather come to mind when I read your post lol

[Moksha]

If one were to seek out a comfortable cave on Galt Island, there wouldn't be anyone to tell them what to do. One could have their own Sunday service in which they could sermonize to an old soccer ball, to inflate now or suffer eternal deflation.

Hope this helps...

:)

[Daniel2020]

To that last little part on the 12th: I have often pondered that myself in my reflection. To sustain is to show support of. My counter to that would be:

Are we to sustain the Supreme Court Ruling that women should be allowed to have abortions? the legalization of harmful drugs? Taxation, which is theft, as we are not in contract, but under authority (that I feel is not justified) and force? Which is then used to fund many practices that are against the direct teachings of the church, such as the dependence on the state vs self sustaining hard work? Welfare is not charity.. it is the redistribution of your wealth to be spent in ways that you have no power of controlling.

Thanks.

Yes. That is what being subject to, as well as supporting and obeying, the law of the land is all about.

------------

You seem to have a big hang-up on taxes. You go so far as to call it theft when you are taxed for the benefit of others.

Frankly, I think you're hiding behind a convenient philosophy that allows you to justify being greedy and selfish. Your attitude does not fit with the second great commandment: To love your neighbor as yourself. I doubt you would have made it as a First Century Christian when they had all things in common.

It might be well for you to ponder on the second great commandment. Also the message and circumstances when Christ said, "Render under Caesar that which is Caesars, and unto God that which is Gods."

Edited June 14, 2010 by Daniel2020

[Daniel2020]

I think Joseph Smith would be right on board with you pretty much. He never governed he just taught people to govern themselves.

Joseph Smith never governed?

What was he doing when he was mayor of Nauvoo? Or the commanding general of the Nauvoo Legion?

[Boris_natasha]

Welcome to an active return to the LDS church. I know you must love the church, and you want to partake of the wonderful spirit there. Wow, it makes me think of my own issues that are currently threatening my continued church activity. I will pray that you find a solution.