Virtual gambling?

[wildbean98]

I play an online game that has imaginary money in it. Anyone care to share their thoughts about gambling with imaginary online money that cannot be converted to real money? For example, lotteries and poker games.

[ruthiechan]

I think it's okay. You're not using real money, and as long as it doesn't take over your life, it's no big deal.

I figure it like this, if you're playing cards with a bunch of friends, and only fake money or a jar of pennies is at stake, then you're having a jovial time with friends without wasting hard earned money or trying to win money, and thus will not harm yourself and family.

[Dravin]

My personal opinion is fake money in games is fine. I'll play the various gambling games in RPGs as a way to make money (in game) or just on a lark when it happens to be a game I'm decent at. Likewise I don't have an issue with playing poker or quarters either with tokens (better yet: candy) or with everyone getting their money back in the end.

I do know that some people wouldn't be comfortable, particularly with the last one due to feeling it is against the counsel to avoid the appearance of evil. *shrug* To each their own, but don't be surprised if some people do take issue with it and call you to repentance.

[Gwen]

monopoly ok?

[UrbanFool]

Weird. I play Cafe World and Farmville, and never even thought of it. I think the thing against gambling (aside from its addictive properties) is the mindset of getting money for doing nothing.

For maybe 10 years, we've gone to the casino on my birthday and eaten at the buffet (endless crab legs) and spent 20 bucks in the machines. It's more of a "how long can you play video poker until your nickels run out" thing than trying to get money for doing nothing for us. I'm not sure how that sits with the faith.

Kelly

[Hemidakota]

I play an online game that has imaginary money in it. Anyone care to share their thoughts about gambling with imaginary online money that cannot be converted to real money? For example, lotteries and poker games.

Gambling is gambling, no matter of using real money or not.

Wildbean, any presence or imaginary setting should not be tempted my friend. Any appearance of evil is only an invitation of opening the front door to your soul in allowing those things to be invited, to only later, become desensitized and addiction will ensue. Don't tempt fate my friend. Again, any appearance of evil is just that. Following the precepts of Paul, he admonishes the earlier Saints:

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. (see 1 Thes. 5:22)

Beside, I am sure; there are other interests that can occupy and enhanced your life than this form of gaming.

[Elgama]

well we play card games using dried peas or beans lol same way I was taught growing up. Personally I see nothing wrong with it. Not sure what you are doing is any different.

[FunkyTown]

Gambling is gambling, no matter of using real money or not.

Since insurance is a form of gambling - That is: You're giving them money, expecting to get hurt/be sued/die. Is that wrong?

As previously mentioned: Monopoly is gambling with fake money. Would an FHE of monopoly be against church policy? Is that wrong?

[Suzie]

I don't see it as gambling at all but it would be interesting if those who state otherwise could provide a quote/source where specifically speaks about it because all the quotes I have read (so far) deals with REAL money (and that's my definition) but I am open to new ideas. If such quotes do not exist, I think it's fair to say it is their own personal interpretation.

[ryanh]

Read Elder Bednar's Things as They Really Are printed in the June 2010 Ensign.

We live at a time when technology can be used to replicate reality, to augment reality, and to create virtual reality. For example, a medical doctor can use software simulation to gain valuable experience performing a complicated surgical operation without ever putting a human patient at risk. A pilot in a flight simulator repeatedly can practice emergency landing procedures that could save many lives. And architects and engineers can use innovative technologies to model sophisticated design and construction methods that decrease the loss of human life and damage to buildings caused by earthquakes and other natural disasters.

In each of these examples, a high degree of fidelity in the simulation or model contributes to the effectiveness of the experience. The term fidelity denotes the similarity between reality and a representation of reality. Such a simulation can be constructive if the fidelity is high and the purposes are good—for example, providing experience that saves lives or improves the quality of life.

Please notice the fidelity between the representation of reality in the computer rendering (page 26) and the reality of the completed room in the photograph on the next page.

In the example, high fidelity is employed to accomplish a most important purpose—the design and construction of a sacred and beautiful temple. However, a simulation or model can lead to spiritual impairment and danger if the fidelity is high and the purposes are bad—such as experimenting with actions contrary to God’s commandments or enticing us to think or do things we would not otherwise think or do “because it is only a game.”

I raise an apostolic voice of warning about the potentially stifling, suffocating, suppressing, and constraining impact of some kinds of cyberspace interactions and experiences upon our souls. The concerns I raise are not new; they apply equally to other types of media, such as television, movies, and music. But in a cyber world, these challenges are more pervasive and intense. I plead with you to beware of the sense-dulling and spiritually destructive influence of cyberspace technologies that are used to produce high fidelity and that promote degrading and evil purposes. [bold emphasis mine]

[Suzie]

Elder Bednar:

such as experimenting with actions contrary to God’s commandments or enticing us to think or do things we would not otherwise think or do “because it is only a game.”

I really don't see the connection between that quote and the point being discussed. Enticing us to think we would not otherwise think or do? Hmmmm...Playing monopoly with fake money with our kids? Playing RPG's with fake money? Is that something we would not normally think or do? Hmmmm. Nice quote but personally I don't think it applies here, context is key.

[Hemidakota]

Ryan, excellent quote. Card games remains what it is, virtual or physical, fake money or real money. It remains a game of chance.

Funky, Well, let us compare an apple to an orange and call it the same. Here is an orange, my game of ‘Life’, where we play together as a family, to be sociable, no different than playing virtual gaming with fake money or real money? Right?

Funky, I know I am old school when it comes to past prophets admonishments, but unless there is current prophet said it is “now ok” to continue to play cards, whether it is fake or real money, at home or on the internet, then I would have not bother to post. Whether you give it another name or not, it is still the same. Game of chance.

Entertainment years ago before the invention of the TV to occupy our time, was a radio set or those in the church, use to setup card game tables was problem. Listened to what President Harold B. Lee stated:

Let me suggest a test in choosing the kinds of socials that you could wholeheartedly participate in "with an eye single to the glory of God." Ask yourself these questions: Is this the kind of a party or social that I in all good conscience could pray the Lord to bless with His Spirit? Would I be ashamed to have my mother or sister come to this place for their recreation? How would I feel if I were to see the Church leader for whom I have the greatest respect playing the kinds of games I am playing tonight? Your answers to that test should suggest several conclusions in making your selections.

First: Your socials should be characterized by wholesome environments.

Second: Those who frequent these places of amusement should be of a good character.

Third: Such amusement places should have the stamp of approval of your parents and your Church leaders. Fourth: These social activities should be of such a nature as to be only incidental to your work or school and your obligations to home and family and should never be allowed to become the controlling forces in your lives. (45-18, pp. 157-58)

Socials have another prime purpose. They bring you young men and women together during the mating time of your lives, for remember this, that one day you will more likely than not find your life's companion in the social atmosphere that you frequent most. The safest place where such companionship can be fostered is where parents and the Church have a guiding hand. (45-18, p. 158)

Shun games of chance. Leisure-time activities that promote idleness should be shunned. For this reason principally card playing is discountenanced by the Church. There seems to be something so all-absorbing in this type of game that those who indulge make of it almost their ruling passion in life, with certainly little compensation in mental development in comparison with the time spent. Our leaders have advised us that the same time expended in other enjoyable diversions—such as good music, good literature, art, poetry, history, or drama—would pay greater dividends with the whole of life and its purposes in view (see J. Reuben Clark Jr., "Restraints and Conventions—Why?" Improvement Era 36 [November 1933]: 807). The kinds of card games [i refer to are those] that seem to require bets or prizes or other inducements to give them the "proper" appeal. The kind of skill that is developed in games of chance is the kind of skill that endangers the moral qualities of the possessor and leads him on a questionable practice. If you could ride with me over the country and view the curse of card playing among our young people that has ripened into gambling with all its trickery and soul-destroying evils, you would agree with me, I am sure, that homes and social groups who, in their shortsightedness, were teachers of such a game to young boys have done grave harm to the characters of youth. Certainly no leader worthy of a leadership in a home or in the Church would knowingly become a party to activities that would result in such practices. (45-18, pp. 158-59) (Ref: Teachings of Harold B. Lee by Harold B. Lee)

Nothing changed since then. We still shun the game or the appearance evil.

[ryanh]

I really don't see the connection between that quote and the point being discussed.

Then we disagree. I very much see the connection.

Enticing us to think we would not otherwise think or do?

Yes. I would not engage in real gambling, but could be more easily enticed into doing it online - esp if no money was involved. The OP is precisely what Bendar was getting at. Easing us into activities that we wouldn't do in reality - because of the ease of rationalization. But, it is the first step down the path.

Hmmmm...Playing monopoly with fake money with our kids?

Apples and oranges.

Playing RPG's with fake money?

Still apples and oranges.

Is that something we would not normally think or do?

Yes, I would normally think of playing games with my children - to interact with them in reality, and also teach principles of money management, and strategic thinking. FAR different in nature than being online playing Farmville, or drugwars (old school), or some form of gambling (with or without monetary consequences).

Hmmmm. Nice quote but personally I don't think it applies here, context is key.

Context IS key. Read the entire article, and you likely will see it does apply.

[Suzie]

Then we disagree. I very much see the connection.

Yes. I would not engage in real gambling, but could be more easily enticed into doing it online - esp if no money was involved. The OP is precisely what Bendar was getting at. Easing us into activities that we wouldn't do in reality - because of the ease of rationalization. But, it is the first step down the path.

Apples and oranges.

Still apples and oranges.

Yes, I would normally think of playing games with my children - to interact with them in reality, and also teach principles of money management, and strategic thinking. FAR different in nature than being online playing Farmville, or drugwars (old school), or some form of gambling (with or without monetary consequences).

Context IS key. Read the entire article, and you likely will see it does apply.

Thanks for your reply. I read that talk before actually. I still do not see the connection with the issue at hand and it's your personal interpretation. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. :)

[bl8tant]

As previously mentioned: Monopoly is gambling with fake money. Would an FHE of monopoly be against church policy? Is that wrong?

Given how much contention Monopoly usually causes in our family, I'd be OK with a church policy banning it.

[Dravin]

Since insurance is a form of gambling - That is: You're giving them money, expecting to get hurt/be sued/die. Is that wrong?

As previously mentioned: Monopoly is gambling with fake money. Would an FHE of monopoly be against church policy? Is that wrong?

Does this mean killing is killing regardless of if it's people or pixels? In which case there are much bigger (additional) fish to fry for a lot of us than playing a game of Kazoozal with our Level 23.5 Fluffernutter Slayer.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Dravin

[wildbean98]

such as experimenting with actions contrary to God’s commandments or enticing us to think or do things we would not otherwise think or do “because it is only a game.”

This is the interesting quote. It would seem that we're being told that breaking a commandment in a game should be avoided just as we would avoid it in real life. The problem is that in many games, the point is to kill other people. Even though it is a game, the situation presented in the games can be very different.

In Eve Online, I can kill other pilots. Pilots sit in a pod that sits in a ship. I can kill their ship to expose their pod, then kill their pod. When that happens their mind is transferred to a clone and they get a new body. Is this a violation of the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment? After I blow up their ship I can take what's in their cargo. Does that violate the no stealing commandment?

In Battlefield, I can kill enemy soldiers. After they die they respawn like nothing ever happened. After they're dead I can steal their equipment. Is this a violation of the commandments as well?

In Grand Theft Auto I can steal cars, shoot innocent bystanders, run over people with my car, and have sex with prostitutes. Does this violate commandments in the exact same way as with Eve Online and Battlefield? If so then why do we see Grand Theft Auto as a very non-Mormon game while Eve and Battlefield are played by many members?

Quick side note, I don't see the connection between Monopoly and gambling. Monopoly attempts to simulate business where you buy and sell things. There isn't a way to bet money to win more money in it.

Anyway, I was just looking for opinions on the matter, since virtual worlds hasn't been covered much by the church yet.

[UrbanFool]

I'd be interested in knowing the exact games that started all of this contention.

We ALL have hobbies or things we do where we can agree that our time could be spent doing something a lot more godly. I don't think that spending an evening playing Canasta with my Mother in Law is going to ruin me spiritually.

I just purchased two card games that we haven't played yet --Book of Mormon Battles and It Came to Pass. Without kids, our FHE's are pretty limited.

Kelly

[beefche]

Once again, I think that the church is staying out of the micro-managing aspect of our lives. Here are some guidelines for our youth, which I think are good for the adults as well.

For the Strength of Youth:

Whatever you read, listen to, or look at has an effect on you. Therefore, choose only entertainment and media that uplift you. Good entertainment will help you to have good thoughts and make righteous choices. It will allow you to enjoy yourself without losing the Spirit of the Lord.

While much entertainment is good, some of it can lead you away from righteous living. Offensive material is often found in web sites, concerts, movies, music, videocassettes, DVDs, books, magazines, pictures, and other media. Satan uses such entertainment to deceive you by making what is wrong and evil look normal and exciting. It can mislead you into thinking that everyone is doing things that are wrong.

Do not attend, view, or participate in entertainment that is vulgar, immoral, violent, or pornographic in any way. Do not participate in entertainment that in any way presents immorality or violent behavior as acceptable.

Pornography in all its forms is especially dangerous and addictive. What may begin as a curious indulgence can become a destructive habit that takes control of your life. It can lead you to sexual transgression and even criminal behavior. Pornography is a poison that weakens your self-control, changes the way you see others, causes you to lose the guidance of the Spirit, and can even affect your ability to have a normal relationship with your future spouse. If you encounter pornography, turn away from it immediately.

Depictions of violence often glamorize vicious behavior. They offend the Spirit and make you less able to respond to others in a sensitive, caring way. They contradict the Savior’s message of love for one another.

Have the courage to walk out of a movie or video party, turn off a computer or television, change a radio station, or put down a magazine if what is being presented does not meet Heavenly Father’s standards. Do these things even if others do not. Let your friends and family know that you are committed to keeping God’s standards. You have the gift of the Holy Ghost, which will give you strength and help you make good choices.

[wildbean98]

It started with Eve Online. You can pay for the monthly subscription using in game money so it costs me zero real dollars to play. There are lotteries and poker games where you can bet and win in game money too. Gambling in game is 100% free in terms of real world money. There are other ways to gamble as well, like you can bet on who will win the yearly alliance tournament.

[UrbanFool]

Oh wow. That looks awesome and like something I need to stay away from. I don't think that gambling or rules against gambling are what's at question here. First, you have to wonder why you asked in the first place? Was the Holy Ghost whispering in your ear? Perhaps you feel guilty at the amount of time you spend with the game.

There are probably other factors here.

[Guest]

I always go by INTENTION when faced with these kinds of things.

Why do I play the game? A very important question requiring a very honest answer from me. I love card games. I grew up in it - my family plays cards as a past time. I've had very special memories from all-nighters playing card games with my cousins.

It is not gambling - why? Because the INTENT is not to make money out of nothing - fake or otherwise. There is no difference from playing Filipino version of poker to playing Uno. We play because our family (and that includes cousins three times removed and even those who are not blood related) gets so much enjoyment from playing together.

Sometimes I spend time playing card games on my computer. Hearts, blackjack, poker. The intent is not to win money or whatever. The intent is to pass the time in peace. Yeah, I read a lot of books too or listen to music - but there are just times when I need to empty my brain out and there's nothing better at it than playing a brainless game.

Intention is the key.

[Suzie]

I think the Church cannot tell us what to do in every possibly micro thing in our lives, it is just not realistic. We all have both brains and Spirit to guide us through the things that we should do. "I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves".

I believe that on this topic (and many others on the forum) each one us make our own interpretation of what it means (when there are no specifics about it) and whether it should be avoided or not, so really we are sharing our opinion and interpretation of what our leaders have said about the general topic (since I haven't read anything about virtual gambling but maybe someone has specific quotes about it?).

I think it is important to state it as such (our opinion) rather than make it sound as THE Church position (I am talking here about others topics in the forum but using this topic as reference).

Just my two cents.

[Hemidakota]

I always go by INTENTION when faced with these kinds of things.

Why do I play the game? A very important question requiring a very honest answer from me. I love card games. I grew up in it - my family plays cards as a past time. I've had very special memories from all-nighters playing card games with my cousins.

It is not gambling - why? Because the INTENT is not to make money out of nothing - fake or otherwise. There is no difference from playing Filipino version of poker to playing Uno. We play because our family (and that includes cousins three times removed and even those who are not blood related) gets so much enjoyment from playing together.

Sometimes I spend time playing card games on my computer. Hearts, blackjack, poker. The intent is not to win money or whatever. The intent is to pass the time in peace. Yeah, I read a lot of books too or listen to music - but there are just times when I need to empty my brain out and there's nothing better at it than playing a brainless game.

Intention is the key.

Excellent thought.

For him, this is not so. He already stated his intentions and this is why in the past, avoid playing cards if this is used beyond the means of social pleasures. Urbanfool posting ask, if it was the promptings of the Holy Ghost for him to seek further guidance of this issue.

[ryanh]

Intention is the key.

Intent is not everything. Many a person has been convicted of manslaughter when they had absolutely no intent to harm another. I can easily see many situations where intent might be reasonable, but the effect on one's spirit is bad.

Intent is a good gauge, but is not an end all in evaluating our conduct.

while Eve and Battlefield are played by many members?

Does that make it "good" or "right" for another individual? I could make an argument that many members don't pay tithing, or don't attend all of their meetings regularly - and both statements would be correct - there are many that don't. But that doesn't make it right.

A daily WoW recently seems pertinent to the thought that 'many members play' these games:

“Keep in mind the challenging fact that your aim is not to get ahead of others, but to surpass yourself; to begin today to be the person you want to be.”

Hugh B. Brown, Conference Report, April 1968

Comparisions to others rarely help us to become the person that HF wants us to be, unless that comparion is made to Christ.