Alma 28:5 and Psychiatric Illness?

[TheActualLiz]

I really like this concept but I still have some questions about it's application.

Yea, and I know that good and evil have come before all men; he that knoweth not good from evil is blameless; but he that knoweth good and evil, to him it is given according to his desires, weather he desirous good or evil, life or death, joy or remorse of conscience.

Now usually this has been explained to me in terms of children who have not yet reached the age of accountability (for example if a small child dies he or she is completely innocent in the eyes of the Lord).

I have also heard that this applied with the severe mental retardation. I think this is a beautiful concept that gives me a lot of piece.

I was wondering if any of you knew if or how this applies to those with severe mental illness? I have tried asking about it but usually get an "I don't know" type of response. Here are just a few of the examples that come to my mind:

- A soldier comes back from war with Post Traumatic Stress but has not been properly diagnosed and therefore has not received treatment. A trigger such as a car backfiring causes flash backs that are severe enough to make him forget that he is no longer in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, or wherever he served. As a result he might do things that would normally be unacceptable such as acts of violence (thinking he is dealing with an enemy combatant), discuss age inappropriate topics with children (thinking he is talking to his army buddies), or break into people's housed (thinking he is still doing house to house searches).

- A person with Schizophrenia is unable to afford his medication and suffers a complete psychotic breakdown. It becomes increasingly difficult and eventually impossible for him to determine if he is interacting with a real person, a hallucinated person, an angel, or a demon. Any number of inexplicable behaviors may result.

- A person with Dissociative Identity Disorder (formerly called Multiple Personalities) has an episode where one of her alters comes out and she is no longer co-present. She only later discovers that during the episode she had all the qualities of a five year old or a warrior or a prostitute. Is she guilty for the acts committed by her alters?

- A person suffering from a prolonged Major Depressive Episode tries desperately for months to avoid acting on vivid intrusive thoughts of suicide. Eventually these intrusive thoughts become so severe that no other cognitive function is possible. Would she still be accountable for taking her own life?

[pam]

I think Heavenly Father being the loving and compassionate father that he is, takes all of this into consideration and judges accordingly.

[HiJolly]

Agree with Pam. :-)

HiJolly

[Dravin]

Indeed, chalk this up with some of the impossible who ends up with whom scenarios sometimes asked about sealings. Only thing you can do is trust the Lord will work it out.

[Moksha]

ActualLiz, do not discount the natural human impulse of anger and its offshoot revenge. These are powerful forces that can easily brush aside any shoulds or oughts.

[Misshalfway]

I think sometimes we humans think that God thinks like we do....in absolutes. And maybe its fair that we misunderstand so innocently. The scriptures are written that way sometimes.

Just remember we see through a glass darkly and He has views we can't even fathom.

Don't try to answer these questions. There isn't an answer that can fit in all cases. And how do we know what others know? Heck, I am such a mix of what I do know and what I don't! And my "stuff" trips me up inspite of it all sometimes.

We all are just doing the best we can. You know? Judging it all doesn't help anybody. Our time is better spent helping support the feeble knees.

[TheActualLiz]

Thank you all for your replies.

I seem to remember my mother telling me that none of us can accurately judge since we do not have nearly enough information. We cannot even judge ourselves because there are just too many variables. Only Christ can judge.

I also seem to remember reading "judge not least ye be judged" and "whatsoever measure ye meet out will be measured back to you" or something like that in the New Testament.

If we add in the frame of mind of someone at the exact moment of a point of severe anger and the spiritual cancer that is revenge.... yeah... that one just boggles my mind.

I had to LOL at the reference to the "who ends up with whom sealing questions" since I have asked many a member that one countless times and it seems to be a perpetual thorn in my side.

Perhaps the only good that can come out of my question is that thinking about these things can help me to forgive. I know we are supposed to forgive everyone anyway because of Christ... but thinking about things from the other person's perspective (or at least trying to) seems to help me with this practice.

One thing I can say for certain is that I am completely incapable of understanding all God's ways. Sometimes it makes me want to scream to the heavens "WHAT IS YOUR LOGIC?!?!?". Over time, however, I have come to a decent level of acceptance the Heavenly Father is WAY smarter than I am. I find this very comforting since He has one job that I am DEFINITELY under qualified for :)

[captmoroniRM]

None of us can really say. We cannot judge others or their actions. Luckily we have a loving Heavenly Father and Savior to judge us at the last day; perfectly just and merciful. They know our hearts and our minds and are the best judge possible for such situations.

[Dravin]

We cannot judge others or their actions.

We most certainly can. We shouldn't/can't pass final judgement (which is probably what you are getting at) but if I don't let someone who has a history of pedophilia babysit my children and by doing so I am passing judgement on them (they aren't to be trusted with my children) and their behavior (acting out their desires with my children is, putting it midly, not good). Now some judgments are unrighteous judgement even if they aren't final judgement, for instance refusing to hire someone because they aren't LDS (and only for that), or judging the funny smelling kid as unworthy of love, but that isn't the same (saying we aren't to judge unrighteous judgement nor final judgement [which would be a subtype of unrighteous judgement]) as saying we can't judge others and their actions.

Your eyes probably glazed over after "we shouldn't pass final judgement" because dollars to donuts that is what you are getting at, it's just simply saying we can't judge others or their actions is a pet peeve of mine.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I really like this concept but I still have some questions about it's application.

Now usually this has been explained to me in terms of children who have not yet reached the age of accountability (for example if a small child dies he or she is completely innocent in the eyes of the Lord).

I have also heard that this applied with the severe mental retardation. I think this is a beautiful concept that gives me a lot of piece.

I was wondering if any of you knew if or how this applies to those with severe mental illness? I have tried asking about it but usually get an "I don't know" type of response. Here are just a few of the examples that come to my mind:

- A soldier comes back from war with Post Traumatic Stress but has not been properly diagnosed and therefore has not received treatment. A trigger such as a car backfiring causes flash backs that are severe enough to make him forget that he is no longer in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, or wherever he served. As a result he might do things that would normally be unacceptable such as acts of violence (thinking he is dealing with an enemy combatant), discuss age inappropriate topics with children (thinking he is talking to his army buddies), or break into people's housed (thinking he is still doing house to house searches).

- A person with Schizophrenia is unable to afford his medication and suffers a complete psychotic breakdown. It becomes increasingly difficult and eventually impossible for him to determine if he is interacting with a real person, a hallucinated person, an angel, or a demon. Any number of inexplicable behaviors may result.

- A person with Dissociative Identity Disorder (formerly called Multiple Personalities) has an episode where one of her alters comes out and she is no longer co-present. She only later discovers that during the episode she had all the qualities of a five year old or a warrior or a prostitute. Is she guilty for the acts committed by her alters?

- A person suffering from a prolonged Major Depressive Episode tries desperately for months to avoid acting on vivid intrusive thoughts of suicide. Eventually these intrusive thoughts become so severe that no other cognitive function is possible. Would she still be accountable for taking her own life?

I agree with everyone's comments here, that we cannot judge another's action without knowing the desire of their heart and their real knowledge and state of mind. For our own benefit though, prevention is always the best medicine. Having good mental health requires taking care of your body, eating well, sleeping well etc. It also requires filling the mind with positive and uplifting content such as what happens with daily scripture study and prayer.

I think there are some with mental illness that find themselves in a deep hole like the examples that you gave or like the example that was given in conference of a woman who was about to take her life after becoming depressed from becoming addicted to prescription drugs. As that example, there often is a pathway of decisions and consequences to those decisions that set up the mental illness. I think there will be judgments based on those decisions, like deciding not to pray every day or not to study the scriptures every day or to slam the door on the missionaries at the door etc. that could have prevented the course that leads to chemical changes in the brain and mental illness. Of course, not all mental illness comes about that way and God is the only judge of how any individual arrives at any specific situation.

We do not have the ability to judge any particular individual that way but at the same time realize that we can help prevent mental illness by following commandments and filling the mind with positive and uplifting content.

[NeuroTypical]

Required reading on the subject:

“Judge Not” and Judging - Dallin H. Oaks, Ensign, Aug 1999

I have been puzzled that some scriptures command us not to judge and others instruct us that we should judge and even tell us how to do it. But as I have studied these passages I have become convinced that these seemingly contradictory directions are consistent when we view them with the perspective of eternity. The key is to understand that there are two kinds of judging: final judgments, which we are forbidden to make, and intermediate judgments, which we are directed to make, but upon righteous principles.

[Traveler]

My opinion – there are a number of ideas that relate to this topic. For example we are told that by responding to temptation that Satan will take away our will and agency. We are told that the only way to overcome the influences of unclean spirits (Satan and his followers) is through repentance and the power of the Holy Ghost.

It would appear that without the blessings of repentance and the power of the Holy Ghost that all mankind (including children and the otherwise impaired) would be lost to the powers of Satan. We can also understand that accountability for sin and evil is overcome for all those fallen because of the transgressions of Adam and Eve. We also understand that our “probation” does not end with death.

I believe it quite possible that many whom we demonize in this life such as Hitler, Stalin and many others may repent in the spirit world and be cleansed from sin and forsake all evil. I believe that it is also possible that many that are thought to be “good” will carry secret sins that they dearly love and refuse to put aside.

No one that repents and allows themselves to be made clean through the atonement of Christ will be held accountable for their sins. No one. None will be held accountable though their sins be as scarlet they will be unaccountable.

The Traveler

[Blackmarch]

I really like this concept but I still have some questions about it's application.

Now usually this has been explained to me in terms of children who have not yet reached the age of accountability (for example if a small child dies he or she is completely innocent in the eyes of the Lord).

I have also heard that this applied with the severe mental retardation. I think this is a beautiful concept that gives me a lot of piece.

I was wondering if any of you knew if or how this applies to those with severe mental illness? I have tried asking about it but usually get an "I don't know" type of response. Here are just a few of the examples that come to my mind:

- A soldier comes back from war with Post Traumatic Stress but has not been properly diagnosed and therefore has not received treatment. A trigger such as a car backfiring causes flash backs that are severe enough to make him forget that he is no longer in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, or wherever he served. As a result he might do things that would normally be unacceptable such as acts of violence (thinking he is dealing with an enemy combatant), discuss age inappropriate topics with children (thinking he is talking to his army buddies), or break into people's housed (thinking he is still doing house to house searches).

- A person with Schizophrenia is unable to afford his medication and suffers a complete psychotic breakdown. It becomes increasingly difficult and eventually impossible for him to determine if he is interacting with a real person, a hallucinated person, an angel, or a demon. Any number of inexplicable behaviors may result.

- A person with Dissociative Identity Disorder (formerly called Multiple Personalities) has an episode where one of her alters comes out and she is no longer co-present. She only later discovers that during the episode she had all the qualities of a five year old or a warrior or a prostitute. Is she guilty for the acts committed by her alters?

- A person suffering from a prolonged Major Depressive Episode tries desperately for months to avoid acting on vivid intrusive thoughts of suicide. Eventually these intrusive thoughts become so severe that no other cognitive function is possible. Would she still be accountable for taking her own life?

i believe that in such a case where there is such a total breakdown where cognitive control is no longer present, that they will not be held accountable to it.... however they will likely have to deal with the memories and knowledge of what happened during such an episode.

IMO