Tennessee Firemen let House Burn

[HoosierGuy]

Tennessee firemen let a house burn down because the owners of the home did not pay a yearly fire service fee. So the firemen just let it burn down.

No pay, no spray: Firefighters let home burn - U.S. news - Life - msnbc.com

Firefighters in rural Tennessee let a home burn to the ground last week because the homeowner hadn't paid a $75 fee.

Cranick, who lives outside the city limits, admits he "forgot" to pay the annual $75 fee. The county does not have a county-wide firefighting service, but South Fulton offers fire coverage to rural residents for a fee.

The man's son went down to the fire house and punched the chief in the face.

Edited October 5, 2010 by HoosierGuy
Spelling

[pam]

So they couldn't have saved the house and then gone after the owner for the $75? This is totally irresponsible.

[Dravin]

Strange, usually cases like this have to do with someone being outside of city limits and the fire department showing up to make sure it doesn't cross over into city limits but not doing anything for the house on fire. Looks like this is a twist where one can opt in for a fee when the alternative is no service period.

So they couldn't have saved the house and then gone after the owner for the $75? This is totally irresponsible.

There are possibly insurance and/or proper use of city funds issues (the folks in question are outside of city limits). Also the policy may be to discourage someone from not paying into the pot except on the one year there is a fire. Kinda like singing up for car insurance at the scene of an accident. Indeed scanning over the article more closely:

South Fulton's mayor said that the fire department can't let homeowners pay the fee on the spot, because the only people who would pay would be those whose homes are on fire.

A city has limited funds, I imagine they don't maintain county roads either. Making to much a fuss over this will probably have them discontinuing the service. One of the benefits of living outside of city limits is you can avoid taxes, one of downsides is that you also avoid various services. For instance, while not quite the same I live in Eagle Mountain which has no police force of its own, I must rely on the county for such services and don't expect Saratoga's police to take the short seven mile trip to provide service to me.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Dravin

[pam]

Okay Dravin, quit making so much sense. I was letting emotion override common sense here. :)

[Dravin]

Note, one could use this as an example of why the county should provide service (or pay for the city to do so). There is just a little bit more to it than someone who just watched their house burn down is going to be able to appreciate.

[pam]

I guess I can appreciate that I've never lived in an area that would have these set conditions on whether your house burns down or not.

[Dravin]

I guess I can appreciate that I've never lived in an area that would have these set conditions on whether your house burns down or not.

I think I've actually spent the majority of my life outside of city limits. Though in my cases I think the county provided fire service, law (via sheriffs), and road maintenance. Though the state overlapped a little on roads and law (troopers).

Edited October 5, 2010 by Dravin

[zippy_do46]

True, this is the reason for volunteer fire dept. My husband has been a volunteer for over 36 years. With all the regulations and stuff now training is a must. We have have bake sales, garage sales, dances and etc... just to pay for the training in stay within the guide lines. We also have to carry insurance on the people, equipment, and etc. The small city helps some but all adds up Equipment for 1 person cost between $1500 and $2000. People donate on their water bill if they want to. We apply for grants and etc. As you see we have to work to support our volunteers. You never know when your time will come when you need their help. We found out the hard way that it can happen to you. They were there for us.

[HoosierGuy]

The story is also an example of why "flat taxes" are bad. That $75 a year fee could be looked at as a flat tax. If I lived on one side of the street, dirt poor, in a one room home, but you lived across the street in a mansion with fifty rooms, swimming pool, ten car garage, you and I both have to pay the same $75 fee.

You can afford it, I can't. My little shack burns while your big mansion is saved. If I pay that $75, I can't buy food for a week. If you pay you will not miss it.

We will see more example like this one if the government adopts flat taxes.

[prisonchaplain]

HG, nobody's suggesting a true flat tax, that I know of. Rather, the "flat tax" is actually a proportional tax...a flate rate...kinda like the tithe. Even so, there are varying versions. The one proposed by Steve Forbes, back in the '90s called for 17%, but only after generous personal exemptions. While I don't recall the exact figures, a single guy making say $14K would pay nothing, and a family of four could probably bring in $25K and still pay nothing. With the elimination of loopholes and other exemptions, the upper middle class and the wealthy would pay more than now, but still a low enough rate that they would have little motivation for hiding the money out of country.

As for flat fees, they are technically regressive, but usually small enough and targeted enough, that they would hardly leave a family starving for a week, like your scenario suggests. Even in this story, the owner simply offers that he forgot.

[Just_A_Guy]

You can afford it, I can't. My little shack burns while your big mansion is saved. If I pay that $75, I can't buy food for a week. If you pay you will not miss it.

Of course, if you're living in a shack and you really won't be able to buy groceries for a week if $75/year is taken out of your budget, then you probably qualify for food stamps, WIC, an Earned Income Credit of several hundred (or thousands) of dollars, and/or a number of other federal and state programs. So, false dichotomy.

[pam]

You're right PC. The owner didn't go off about taxes and fees and flat taxes. As you stated..he simply forgot.

[pam]

The story is also an example of why "flat taxes" are bad. That $75 a year fee could be looked at as a flat tax. If I lived on one side of the street, dirt poor, in a one room home, but you lived across the street in a mansion with fifty rooms, swimming pool, ten car garage, you and I both have to pay the same $75 fee.

You can afford it, I can't. My little shack burns while your big mansion is saved. If I pay that $75, I can't buy food for a week. If you pay you will not miss it.

We will see more example like this one if the government adopts flat taxes.

Then again the $75 is a yearly fee. So you set aside $1.44 a week to pay for the next year. $75 really seems such a small amount compared to what you can lose in the case of a fire.

[Maya]

Here the firemen are working for state and get their salary aso from the tax money.... paying in order to be sure that the firemen come is very weird thought to me! Even more weird is that firemen wont come if someone has not paid the bill. :eek: It is like the elcompany here that cuts the electricity from people in wintertime IF they ahve not paid the bills. An old man died last winter in cold as he had forgotten to pay the bills.

[prisonchaplain]

Maya, everyone's first reaction to this story, and ones like you tell is that the firemen were heartless, and the county more so. On second thought, though...if the fire gets put out irregardless, who's going to pay the $75? My pastor's wife used to work for the utility company, in the telephone collections department. This was back in Miami. She often joked to me that half the city must have children on life support machines at home, because when she tells customers they will be cut off, that's the first thing that comes out of their mouths. She tells them that she can put in an order to have an inspector come out and check on this claim, but that the customer will be liable for charges, should it prove false. Of course the customer is shocked and appalled and the very thought that they might be less than honest, but then makes arrangements to just pay the bill...

[Dravin]

I suspect PC there is a different idea of government at play for Maya. Europe tends to be top heavier than the US. For instance while we have the FBI here most law enforcement is handled at the city/county or state level, where in Maya's Norway the police is administered from the National level down. It wouldn't surprise me to find this is the case in other European countries.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Dravin

[Canuck Mormon]

I thought that I read that the fire department was out there anyway to stop the fire from spreading to the house next door which had paid the fee. If that is the case then I beleive they could have done something to try and save some of their things.

[prisonchaplain]

Canuck...what is driving this story is that the fire department could have saved the house, or at least lessened the damage. It did not because the homeowner had not paid the annual fire fee. Homeowners in this outlying area can "opt out." By not paying, that is what he did.

If home owners can opt out until the fire comes, and then say, "Okay okay...I'll pay, please just put my fire out!" then nobody would pay the annual fees, and the department could not afford to operate.

It would be like waiting until I have terminal cancer to try to by life insurance, and then calling the company cruel and heartless for refusing to insure me. "My family will be homeless because of big insurance corporate greed!" I could cry out. But if everyone could do that, the companies would bankrupt overnight. No one would insure until the last moment.

So...as heartless as it seems...the department really could not respond to this after-the-fact plea for fire insurance protection.

By the way, this set up in unusual. Most people pay for emergency services through local property taxes, or other automatic means. It's only in a few pockets of area around the country that this arrangement exists.

[PrinceofLight2000]

The story is also an example of why "flat taxes" are bad. That $75 a year fee could be looked at as a flat tax. If I lived on one side of the street, dirt poor, in a one room home, but you lived across the street in a mansion with fifty rooms, swimming pool, ten car garage, you and I both have to pay the same $75 fee.

You can afford it, I can't. My little shack burns while your big mansion is saved. If I pay that $75, I can't buy food for a week. If you pay you will not miss it.

We will see more example like this one if the government adopts flat taxes.

I'll alley-oop PC's pass and Pam's assist.

Flat tax =/= flat fee.

[john doe]

The story is also an example of why "flat taxes" are bad. That $75 a year fee could be looked at as a flat tax. If I lived on one side of the street, dirt poor, in a one room home, but you lived across the street in a mansion with fifty rooms, swimming pool, ten car garage, you and I both have to pay the same $75 fee.

You can afford it, I can't. My little shack burns while your big mansion is saved. If I pay that $75, I can't buy food for a week. If you pay you will not miss it.

We will see more example like this one if the government adopts flat taxes.

No, silly, that's an example of a flat fee. Everybody pays the same fee, whether they are rich or poor. When you go to the state and ask for a duplicate birth certificate, they charge everyone a flat fee- $5, $10, whatever it is. It doesn't matter if you are rich or poor, you pay the same fee.

A true flat tax would be where a certain percentage is charged across the board. If you pay 10% of your income and your rich neighbor pays 10% of his income, he pays much more than you, but you both pay the same flat rate. Adjusting for your story, if your house appraises for $10,000 and your rich neighbor's house appraises for $100,000, a flat rate property tax would charge him 10 times what is charged to you.

[PrinceofLight2000]

No, silly, that's an example of a flat fee. Everybody pays the same fee, whether they are rich or poor. When you go to the state and ask for a duplicate birth certificate, they charge everyone a flat fee- $5, $10, whatever it is. It doesn't matter if you are rich or poor, you pay the same fee.

A true flat tax would be where a certain percentage is charged across the board. If you pay 10% of your income and your rich neighbor pays 10% of his income, he pays much more than you, but you both pay the same flat rate. Adjusting for your story, if your house appraises for $10,000 and your rich neighbor's house appraises for $100,000, a flat rate property tax would charge him 10 times what is charged to you.

Thanks for explaining what I was too lazy to type out! :cool:

I wish there was a combination of those 4 smileys.

[Just_A_Guy]

I think most of us would agree that legally, there is no obligation (nor should there be).

But morally? If I see someone's house burning down, and I'm already there with pumps and a hose and I'm not doing anything else . . . I'd have a hard time going to sleep that night knowing I'd just watched someone's house burn down over seventy five bucks.

[pam]

Thank you JAG. My thoughts exactly.

[rameumptom]

I think the firefighters did the right thing. If no one paid their $75 until after their house was saved, there wouldn't be the funds to keep the program running. It costs money to fight fires, and people are risking their lives. To fight fires for those who conveniently "forgot" to pay their fee is irresponsible, and risks taking the whole program down.

It is like a person getting seriously sick and then going to the insurance company and saying, "I'll pay now if you'll pay for my huge medical bills." The insurance company isn't going to do that, as they would then have most their clients do the same thing, putting them out of business and harming everyone.

I'm responsible for paying my medical insurance, house insurance, etc. If I forget, it isn't someone else's responsibility to bail me out - particularly if such an action risks placing the whole program in jeopardy.

As for the son punching the chief, he should be arrested for assault and spend some time behind bars, or perhaps doing community service helping around the fire station.

[Dravin]

As for the son punching the chief, he should be arrested for assault and spend some time behind bars, or perhaps doing community service helping around the fire station.

Sent door to door reminding people to pay the fee?