Righteous pride

[Wingnut]

Whenever we talk about pride in this church, we talk about President Benson's "Beware of Pride." More recently, Elder Uchtdorf gave a similarly-themed talk in the Priesthood session of Conference.

One of the things that President Benson says in his talk is:

Pride is a very misunderstood sin, and many are sinning in ignorance. In the scriptures there is no such thing as righteous pride—it is always considered a sin. Therefore, no matter how the world uses the term, we must understand how God uses the term so we can understand the language of holy writ and profit thereby.

My dad feels very strongly about this, and even when speaking of his own children's accomplishments, I'm not sure I've ever heard him say that he's "proud" of us. He defers to the example of "This is my beloved son, in whom I am well please. Hear Him." He always says that he's pleased with us. It's a habit he purposely developed after President Benson first gave his talk on pride, and it's lasted through the years.

A few minutes ago, I was preparing my lesson to teach in YW tomorrow. It's on self-mastery, and I found an interesting quote at the end of it:

"Proper self-management is a great virtue, which can lead to personal pride. Personal pride is a great motivator. It is a virtue to understand who we are and to conduct ourselves accordingly. To be created in God’s image is a tremendous blessing with accompanying choice responsibilities. … We need to be constantly aware of the fact that we are children of God. He knows us. He hears us. He loves us"

It's from Marvin J. Ashton, October 1976 General Conference. I think it seems to indicate that the "personal pride" he speaks of is a good thing.

So what do you think? Is there such a thing as righteous pride?

[pam]

I think there is a huge difference in being able to say "I'm proud of my kids" and being proudful and boastful of ones own accomplishments.

[Dravin]

Sure. Honestly while I can appreciate the conscious choice your dad made colloquially speaking he's pleased in his children and saying he's proud of them are effectively the same statements.

That said before we can discuss if pride can ever be a good thing we are going to have to come to some sort of understanding concerning a definition. For instance as above, your Dad may see a distinction between being pleased with and being proud of his children's accomplishments but a lot of people aren't. There are so many definitions, nuances, idioms and colloquialisms floating it's a quagmire.

For example we have this definition from the Guide to the Scriptures Guide to the Scriptures: Pride

A lack or absence of humility or teachableness.

If I take pride/joy/am pleased with my kid's report card is that a lack or absence of humility or teachableness (I realize it could be if you start using your kid as a "I'm better than you" yardstick, but I mean inherently).

And C.S. Lewis gave this definition:

But Pride always means enmity-it is enmity. And not only enmity between man and man, but enmity to God.

Once again, with your kids report card? Does this qualify? What about the phrase about taking pride in a job well done? Ultimately it's about what you do reflecting on yourself but it's another use of the word pride. Is such bad?

It's a good, but complicated question. I either see this thread dying quick or breaking the 5 page mark.

[pam]

What about the phrase about taking pride in a job well done?

It's all in the attitude.

[Connie]

It sounds to me like Elder Ashton is talking about self-esteem. Perhaps it was a poor choice of words?

[Dravin]

It sounds to me like Elder Ashton is talking about self-esteem. Perhaps it was a poor choice of words?

I don't think it's necessarily a poor choice of words. He just wasn't assigning it the same nuance that others might assign it. I'd hate to be a GA giving a talk and feel compelled to look up every previous usage of a word to make sure my nuance is 100% in line with all previous uses.

It's all in the attitude.

Twas kinda my point, though I was implying it instead of being all out in the clear with it. It goes back to the nuances. I'd say its an example of how all pride isn't inherently bad, another might use it to say a lot of things are called pride that aren't. If one defines pride as something that is inherently bad then the clear and logical answer is that pride is always bad. The problem is that doesn't necessarily match up with common uses of the word.

Edited November 6, 2010 by Dravin

[Wingnut]

Sure. Honestly while I can appreciate the conscious choice your dad made colloquially speaking he's pleased in his children and saying he's proud of them are effectively the same statements.

I completely agree. It means the same thing. I have no problem using the words "pride" and "proud" in appropriate settings. In my dad's case, I think it was the principle of avoiding the word altogether.

I pretty much agree with the rest of your post, too. I think that when President Benson said that there's no such thing as righteous pride, he was referring to a type of righteous indignation. That should be reserved for God. But to take pride in one's appearance (not that it's better than others', but that you're clean and well-groomed, etc.), one's family and accomplishments. I think it's appropriate at times. There are few things more annoying than people who are humble solely for the sake of not being prideful.

It sounds to me like Elder Ashton is talking about self-esteem. Perhaps it was a poor choice of words?

It was also 13 years prior to President Benson's pride talk. I don't think it was quite self-esteem. Self-confidence would probably be more accurate, in my view anyway. The different is subtle, but there.

[applepansy]

My husband and I meet with other empty-nester couples once a month for FHE. Last time we talked about this very subject. Once sister said "Isn't it semantics?" The obvious answer is "Yes!" That's one of the things that makes this subject so hard.

The other thing that makes this subject hard is that its very hard to talk about pride without being viewed as prideful.

I loved Pres. Benson's talk. I didn't know Elder Uchtdorf had spoken on pride using Pres. Berson's talk until after I had posted about being guilty of pride. His talk is just as good.

I believe this is something we all have to decide for ourselves. No one can judge the intent of our hearts but ourselves and Christ. For me, I'm chosing to remove pride from my vocabulary when speaking about my children's accomplishments.

On a side note: Connie, I understand what you're trying to say. I used to used the words "self esteem" until a read a book entitled "The myth of self esteem" In the book the author makes the point that we shouldn't esteem ourselves but rather strive for a sense of self worth. Self worth is attained by the things we do for others. Self esteem is attained by what others think of us. Again...semantics?

[pam]

As far as a parent being proud of something their child did depends on attitude too. Now if that same parent takes it to the point of being boastful and it turns into a "my kid is better than your kid" kind of thing, there is a difference.

[beefche]

Righteous pride? Isn't that cheering for BYU?

[Wingnut]

Righteous pride? Isn't that cheering for BYU?

That would be an example of people thinking there's such a thing as righteous pride.

[applepansy]

As far as a parent being proud of something their child did depends on attitude too. Now if that same parent takes it to the point of being boastful and it turns into a "my kid is better than your kid" kind of thing, there is a difference.

Pam, I agree. :)

It shouldn't surprise me that this thread is reading like a transcript of our FHE. :)

Edited November 7, 2010 by applepansy
typo

[Justice]

I agree with your dad. :)

[prisonchaplain]

Self-assurance. Self-confidence. Experienced. "I remember when this happened ..." --these are all examples of "righteous pride." Ambition is considered positive in American culture--especially in the business world. Perhaps pride, as condemned in scripture, is similar to many sins--hard to define, but we know it when we encounter it. I was once condemned for having two cars. Never mind that one was over 10-years old, and the other was a very basic Toyota Corolla. To the person condemning me, it was arrogance and consumerism to the extreme (he was from a poor country). The idea of saying pleased rather than proud of is a healthy reminder. However, we do best to focus on our own walk, and pray, like David did 3,000 years ago: Search my heart, O God, and see if there be any unclean way in me.