Joseph Smith-Questions and concerns

[searchingfortruth]

Ok, so my family has really been ministering to me about LDS. So I'm digging, looking for answers, truth, if there is some.

Let me lay out a general thinking idea that I wan't viewpoints on.

Joseph Fielding Smith in Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, page 188. He said, "Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground."

"If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false, for the doctrines of an impostor cannot be made to harmonize in all particulars with divine truth. If his claims and declarations were built upon fraud and deceit, there would appear many errors and contradictions, which would be easy to detect. The doctrines of false teachers will not stand the test when tried buy the accepted standards of measurement, the scriptures."

So with that reference in place...so it seems to be that as long as you prove Joseph Smith to be legit then keep exploring into the depths of the foundings and doctrines.

My concern is this...that there seem to be a lot of things concerning Joseph Smith that doesn't exactly reflect his status as a prophet.

NOT BASHING or DEBATING!!! I for real and searching out truth.

So there ya go, BOMBS away lol

[searchingfortruth]

also, the quote from Joseph Fielding Smith, I'm under the impression he played as a president for the church. If I am incorrect on this...please forgive me.

[Just_A_Guy]

Yes; Joseph F. Smith was the nephew of Joseph Smith and the father of Joseph Fielding Smith. All three led the LDS Church at one point or another.

And, with all due respect, I think you may have the process backwards. It isn't necessary for historians to prove Mormonism true or to prove Joseph Smith to be a true prophet; they merely need to show that his (and the Church's) actions were defensible under the circumstances of the time.

The proof comes from God Himself.

[pam]

Clarification please. What do you mean he "played as a president of the church?"

[searchingfortruth]

Clarification please. What do you mean he "played as a president of the church?"

Meant as thats what he did, his role. "His role was"..."he played as" same thing to me. Sorry for confusion

[pam]

Thanks for the clarification. :)

[searchingfortruth]

Yes; Joseph F. Smith was the nephew of Joseph Smith and the father of Joseph Fielding Smith. All three led the LDS Church at one point or another.

And, with all due respect, I think you may have the process backwards. It isn't necessary for historians to prove Mormonism true or to prove Joseph Smith to be a true prophet; they merely need to show that his (and the Church's) actions were defensible under the circumstances of the time.

The proof comes from God Himself.

here's my viewpoint. (fyi thanks for you input...very good point). I'm know jesus christ as my lord and savior. and know god, and am filled with the holy spirit. BUT I believe in the fullness of the bible.

So kinda my viewpoint in researching as to be the true church (my family states its the only), is to obviously pray for guidance.

but through guidance, there should be facts, IMO. so I'm just aligning everything and seeking the truth on it. Just as in Acts 17 (i believe thats correct refence) where Paul bore testimony to the Bereans. The bereans didn't just take his word, they studied to show what paul was preaching was true.

also, because there seems to be a belief in errors on the bible....i'm researching history and facts on that too. to test the accuracy.

I pray for all things. Thats an understood rule. I have read a good bit of book of mormon. Prayed god would reveal testimony...and nothing. I've actually been searching for truth for awhile now when it comes to LDS.

Pleas dont take this to offense...I truly am seeking truth. Just wanting to make sure I'm not missing something ya know?

[searchingfortruth]

let me rephrase that a bit...

i feel as though I have God, accepted Jesus, and been filled. I feel the power of God working in my life. He set me free from suicide, drug addictions, etc.

So with that background....I'm trying to see if I'm missing something. I feel very complete in christ, its amazing.

So honest opinion I really don't feel as though I lack in anything religion wise. BUT like i said, my family witnesses to me. And I truly want to find out. If the church is truely the only true church....I WANT IN! Who wouldn't lol

hope that makes better sense!

[slamjet]

How long you been sober?

[Elphaba]

It isn't necessary for historians to prove Mormonism true or to prove Joseph Smith to be a true prophet; they merely need to show that his (and the Church's) actions were defensible under the circumstances of the time.

JAG, I'm confused by this. Would you please explain it further?

Elph

Edited March 12, 2011 by Elphaba

[NeuroTypical]

My concern is this...that there seem to be a lot of things concerning Joseph Smith that doesn't exactly reflect his status as a prophet.

Hi searching,

Whenever I hear a concern like this, I like to ask the person expressing it two very simple questions: What caliber of individual do you think God chose to be his Biblical prophets, and why do you think that?

It seems that folks sort of assume way a prophet should look, images of righteous and perfect paternal father figures bestowing pearls of Godly wisdom, inspiring people to abandon their sins. This sort of background image folks have in their minds clash with some of the stories we hear about Joseph Smith. The problem is, this vague undefined image of what a prophet is, is usually at odds with the image the Bible presents as well.

God picked folks with all sorts of imperfect people with character defects to be His mouthpiece in the OT. They were not perfect. Some of them had all sorts of problems with adultry, or lying, or selling their gifts for money, or refusing to deliver the message God had for them, or delivering a different message, even murder. The Bible records this stuff happened while these guys were prophets, on the Lord's errand.

So yeah, Joseph Smith sometimes made mistakes, and sometimes was given to a little bluster and passion. He got a huge kick out of dressing up in uniform and marching up and down with his legion. He was occasionally seen wrestling with children and laughing, or sliding on a block of ice for fun. There was a lot of 1800's specific stuff about his labors and beliefs that we read about. If you're suggesting that any of that means his claim to be a prophet is somehow weakened, I'd challenge you to try to put it into words why. When I've heard people try to put it into words, they always end up with stuff that can be pointed at Biblical prophets just as easily. And I believe you when you say you have accepted Christ, and I'm thinking that the exercise would help you clarify what's in your Bible for you.

What do you think?

LM

Edited March 12, 2011 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[tubaloth]

So honest opinion I really don't feel as though I lack in anything religion wise. BUT like i said, my family witnesses to me. And I truly want to find out. If the church is truely the only true church....I WANT IN! Who wouldn't lol

That leads to the next question. How is God and Jesus Christ a part of your life?

Let me answer that more from my point of view. The simple answer is through Revelation. Part of God's Plan (we call it the Plan of Salvation) is that God speaks to prophets. This is how scriptures come to be. Would God not keep speaking to his prophets? (Amos 3:7).

God wants to tell his children how to return to him. (Yes return). God knows the world doesn't stay the same. God knows that his Children need revelation to fit with how the world changes. This is why a prophet is necessary.

How do we know a prophet is a true prophet? How do we know that Moses, or Abraham, or Peter or Paul were prophets. We do it by following what they taught. We take our faith in God (that he love us, and sent us prophets) and we follow there teachings. The same holds true today. Joseph Smith brought forth the Book of Mormon. Is the Book of Mormon true?

Pres. Thomas S. Monson is the prophet today. If we listen and follow the prophet and apostles

October 2010 General Conference Sessions

We can know through the Holy Ghost that there words are true. We can know by the Holy Ghost that God does love us and sends prophets today, and keeps giving us guidance and revelation.

[john doe]

Ok, so my family has really been ministering to me about LDS. So I'm digging, looking for answers, truth, if there is some......................

NOT BASHING or DEBATING!!! I for real and searching out truth.

So there ya go, BOMBS away lol

So..... you're not LDS, yet you put that down as your religion? Why, may I ask, did you choose to do that? Did you think you would gain legitimacy in discussion by putting that in there?

Also as a warning, I gotta say, your last line there signals to me and others a lot about what your agenda here might be. It sends up all kinds of red flags to moderators when someone comes in and starts talking about bombs and flames and bashing and debating right from the start. Generally their time here does not end well or last long. I hope you prove me wrong, and you will get your chance to do so, but so far I am not impressed.

[Wingnut]

So..... you're not LDS, yet you put that down as your religion? Why, may I ask, did you choose to do that? Did you think you would gain legitimacy in discussion by putting that in there?

That particular selection of religion is a little misleading. I think it actually needs to be split into two options. As it is now, it's "Mormon/LDS/Christian" (emphasis mine). Perhaps it would be helpful to have "Mormon/LDS" as one option, and "Christian, other" as another option. I suspect the OP is actually Christian, but not LDS.

[john doe]

That particular selection of religion is a little misleading. I think it actually needs to be split into two options. As it is now, it's "Mormon/LDS/Christian" (emphasis mine). Perhaps it would be helpful to have "Mormon/LDS" as one option, and "Christian, other" as another option. I suspect the OP is actually Christian, but not LDS.

Yes, but Christian IS a stand-alone option in the profile settings. Unless the OP didn't bother to read the other options, it is curious that he would choose the one that included LDS as his religion.

[mrmarklin]

Joseph Smith was a man, and made of course a lot of human errors. he was far from perfect in all his decisions.

But when you look at the Gospel he revealed to us by the power of God, he must have only been a prophet. This Gospel has stood the test of time, and the more one understands the Holy Scripture, the more one understands that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints can be the only true church in all the world.

[Wingnut]

Yes, but Christian IS a stand-alone option in the profile settings.

I didn't realize that. Thanks for the clarification.

[searchingfortruth]

Hi searching,

Whenever I hear a concern like this, I like to ask the person expressing it two very simple questions: What caliber of individual do you think God chose to be his Biblical prophets, and why do you think that?

It seems that folks sort of assume way a prophet should look, images of righteous and perfect paternal father figures bestowing pearls of Godly wisdom, inspiring people to abandon their sins. This sort of background image folks have in their minds clash with some of the stories we hear about Joseph Smith. The problem is, this vague undefined image of what a prophet is, is usually at odds with the image the Bible presents as well.

God picked folks with all sorts of imperfect people with character defects to be His mouthpiece in the OT. They were not perfect. Some of them had all sorts of problems with adultry, or lying, or selling their gifts for money, or refusing to deliver the message God had for them, or delivering a different message, even murder. The Bible records this stuff happened while these guys were prophets, on the Lord's errand.

So yeah, Joseph Smith sometimes made mistakes, and sometimes was given to a little bluster and passion. He got a huge kick out of dressing up in uniform and marching up and down with his legion. He was occasionally seen wrestling with children and laughing, or sliding on a block of ice for fun. There was a lot of 1800's specific stuff about his labors and beliefs that we read about. If you're suggesting that any of that means his claim to be a prophet is somehow weakened, I'd challenge you to try to put it into words why. When I've heard people try to put it into words, they always end up with stuff that can be pointed at Biblical prophets just as easily. And I believe you when you say you have accepted Christ, and I'm thinking that the exercise would help you clarify what's in your Bible for you.

What do you think?

LM

Awesome viewpoints, and thank you for you're response!

As far as claiming to be a biblical prophet...I go back to deuteronomy. A prophet can be judged by his/her prophecies. If any prophecies are not fulfilled, then they are proven to be a false prophet.

now don't get my wrong, I'm not bashing or claiming joseph was false. just letting you get inside my mind here for a minute.

now with that, you have several different type of prophecies. Some that speak specific dates, some open-ended, etc. There are hundreds of biblical prophecies that have been fulfilled, and are continued to be fulfilled as the age we live in.

my concern, a few of Josephs prophecies that were specific, that when the time came, were not fulfilled.

I do believe in the GIFT of prophecy, as it talks about in the NT. But I believe that is a gift for more than just one person, as I have seen.

Just being honest with you, in the most respectful way, Im having trouble believing that one man hears God for the whole church. I believe that if I need direction, I can go directly to God and ask, and he'll answer (or speak). For Guidance and direction I use the bible...I've never had a situation where I couldn't turn to God's word and find the resolution.

I'll shut up now lol thats just a lil bit of my thoughts when thinking of joining the church.

Again, I mean this with ALL respect. I'm not a basher, if this church is true...(i think i said this before)I want to know and want in!

[searchingfortruth]

Joseph Smith was a man, and made of course a lot of human errors. he was far from perfect in all his decisions.

But when you look at the Gospel he revealed to us by the power of God, he must have only been a prophet. This Gospel has stood the test of time, and the more one understands the Holy Scripture, the more one understands that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints can be the only true church in all the world.

no disrespect intended...but the more I read holy scripture....the more I see conflicts.

I know that the belief is that bible is only accurate as to translated corretly by lds members.

But I feel I have a very understanding knowledge to the bible, in both history and factual events.

Just my 2-cents. Again, no disrespect intended. Just letting ya inside my mind

[searchingfortruth]

Yes, but Christian IS a stand-alone option in the profile settings. Unless the OP didn't bother to read the other options, it is curious that he would choose the one that included LDS as his religion.

if yall are talking about me...i'm lost lol

yes I am christian. No I am not LDS, yet. I'm a christian seeking truth.

[searchingfortruth]

So..... you're not LDS, yet you put that down as your religion? Why, may I ask, did you choose to do that? Did you think you would gain legitimacy in discussion by putting that in there?

Also as a warning, I gotta say, your last line there signals to me and others a lot about what your agenda here might be. It sends up all kinds of red flags to moderators when someone comes in and starts talking about bombs and flames and bashing and debating right from the start. Generally their time here does not end well or last long. I hope you prove me wrong, and you will get your chance to do so, but so far I am not impressed.

ok so my line about debating was me trying to be respectful. I have family that is ridiculously ultra-sensitive when it comes to someone asking about their religion. They immediately think you're coming against them or you're anti-mormon. So that, my friend, was meant with respect.

also...i just created my profile. I will change my religion promptly. did not realize that as an option. must have overlooked it.

it seems that a lot of people in LDS are a bit sensitive. i would think that if someone was searching for truth in the only true church...you would be a bit more welcoming instead of throwing out a warning to them.

ban me if you're "not impressed." i'll search for truth elsewhere if thats the case.

[searchingfortruth]

How long you been sober?

i've been sober for 6 years now. God is good!

[searchingfortruth]

That leads to the next question. How is God and Jesus Christ a part of your life?

Let me answer that more from my point of view. The simple answer is through Revelation. Part of God's Plan (we call it the Plan of Salvation) is that God speaks to prophets. This is how scriptures come to be. Would God not keep speaking to his prophets? (Amos 3:7).

God wants to tell his children how to return to him. (Yes return). God knows the world doesn't stay the same. God knows that his Children need revelation to fit with how the world changes. This is why a prophet is necessary.

How do we know a prophet is a true prophet? How do we know that Moses, or Abraham, or Peter or Paul were prophets. We do it by following what they taught. We take our faith in God (that he love us, and sent us prophets) and we follow there teachings. The same holds true today. Joseph Smith brought forth the Book of Mormon. Is the Book of Mormon true?

Pres. Thomas S. Monson is the prophet today. If we listen and follow the prophet and apostles

October 2010 General Conference Sessions

We can know through the Holy Ghost that there words are true. We can know by the Holy Ghost that God does love us and sends prophets today, and keeps giving us guidance and revelation.

thanks so much for your response. a lot of that does make sense, big time!

here's my question though. NT people like Peter, Paul, etc are different when referring to OT prophets. Peter and Paul taught truth. They preached Jesus and his teachings. If that is what the LDS means as to a prophet...weren't there more than one prophet in the NT?

if there was more than one... (peter, paul, luke, john, etc.) why must there be just 1 today?

just a curious thought :)

[searchingfortruth]

(for the mods)

and FYI...check my profile. My religion is set to CHRISTIAN now, for those of you that were really concerned.

also I want to say this. I've stumbled upon a lot of information on this site. things like if you reveal certain things to me then my blood will be on your hands if I don't accept the church.

so you might wanna think twice before banning me!

can you tell the mod upset me a bit???

[beefche]

Well, this mod may upset you as well. This forum is here to answer sincere questions. The experience we have had as moderators is that some come in "sheep's clothing"--and these deceptive ones often appear alike in many ways. Your post was alike those type of people; hence the warning from john doe.

Be respectful and you will receive respect in return. But remember, the internet is hard to interpret tone--so what you might consider to be respectful sounds less so to others. Your post, while you may intended as respectful, did not come off that way.

And this most recent post of yours in borderline on respectful. Your blood is no more on my hands than mine is on yours for being disrespectful. Threats to moderators regarding banning someone isn't taken very well.

Continue posting with respect and if you have issue with a particular moderator or a post, then report it with that little red triangle in the corner---that is the proper way to report something.