Racism in the scriptures

[Blackmarch]

Ah, I see. So when Joseph Smith used the term 'skin', he didn't actually mean skin? I'm confused.

the author of that portion of the BoM is nephi... I think he is more likely referring to the skin color.

Ive seen some propose this as evidence that the desenkdants of lehi were not alone in the lands they were taken too (ie groups of people mixing with darker skinned natives, as well as being more exposed to sunlight, things like that)

[rameumptom]

Seeker, you seem to presume that God dumps all information and truth into a prophet's head, so all things will be done perfectly and for the right reasons. It doesn't work that way. Even Moses made mistakes along the way.

[mightynancy]

Matthew, the Elder Holland quote was from the Frontline/American Experience documentary, The Mormons. Click on the "interviews" tab and then you can click on the transcript.

He clearly says that we don't know. I suppose it would be bad form to point at previous leaders who accepted the folklore of their day and say outright that they were wrong. That said, his stating that we don't know leads me to believe that the folklore was wrong. I don't believe that our prophets are infallible. I do believe they are inspired. I also believe that they are products of their times and cultures.

[Seeking]

Seriously slamjet, how was that question indicative of a confrontational tone? It was a fair question coming from someone ignorant of its answer. Really, you have nothing to worry about with regards to me (troll/not a troll?). I'm simply looking for answers. Peace brother:)

[Family_Man]

Seriously slamjet, how was that question indicative of a confrontational tone? It was a fair question coming from someone ignorant of its answer. Really, you have nothing to worry about with regards to me (troll/not a troll?). I'm simply looking for answers. Peace brother:)

If this is all you are simply doing, might I suggest a method more appropriate than an internet message board?

Clear your scedule for a few hours, find a quiet place where you can be alone and then pray. Not one of those quick 30 second prayers, and not one of the slightly longer 2 minute prayers. Have a discussion with Heavenly Father, He loves you and He wants you to talk to him. I am not guarenteeing an answer that meets with your aproval, but if you have an open mind, and REAL INTENT (meaning you are not challenging God, but you are willing to follow through on what is revealed to you) then I can assure you will be led to the path you should take.

There is no other way to gain a testimony of any religion, because every religion at some point asks you to believe in something you can not know. You seem to have done some of the prep work, so get off these boards for a bit and PRAY. Then come back and discuss your experience.

[MorningStar]

Don't forget this part of The Book of Mormon. 2 Nephi 26

33For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he ainviteth them ball to ccome unto him and partake of his goodness; and he ddenieth none that come unto him, black and white, ebond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the fheathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

[MorningStar]

Also, your comment "it's about lineage, not skin color" is poor spin. Skin color is a product of lineage, which still leaves you having to answer the question.

Perhaps the answer is unbecoming?

Did you hear about the racist dragon?

[pam]

And of course that has everything to do with this thread. :)

[ruthiechan]

If this is all you are simply doing, might I suggest a method more appropriate than an internet message board?

Clear your scedule for a few hours, find a quiet place where you can be alone and then pray. Not one of those quick 30 second prayers, and not one of the slightly longer 2 minute prayers. Have a discussion with Heavenly Father, He loves you and He wants you to talk to him. I am not guarenteeing an answer that meets with your aproval, but if you have an open mind, and REAL INTENT (meaning you are not challenging God, but you are willing to follow through on what is revealed to you) then I can assure you will be led to the path you should take.

There is no other way to gain a testimony of any religion, because every religion at some point asks you to believe in something you can not know. You seem to have done some of the prep work, so get off these boards for a bit and PRAY. Then come back and discuss your experience.

You have to give something for the Spirit to work with. If a primary teacher does as you said, but did not bother reading and pondering the lesson then the Spirit has nothing to work with and inspiration will not come. The same goes with investigating the Church. Right now, Seeking appears to be doing the first part, information gathering.

And, if a message board is an inappropriate avenue to seek out information, then most of the topics on these forums are inappropriate.

Seeking, if you haven't thought about it yet, perhaps you should consider attending some of our church meetings and talk to the missionaries. It might be easier to have sensitive discussions with someone face to face.

[Family_Man]

Thank you estradling75...that makes sense. I actually have read the whole thing but I think I need to read it a few times to really parse it...it was just really confusing.

Who was being accusatory? Matthew0059 when he suggested my legitimate question smelled of and "honesty' game, or blackknight5k, who called me a troll.

I am trying to find a religion/church/belief to subscribe to, and I want to make sure of what I am getting in to. I am sorry if you found me accusatory/confrontational.

You have to give something for the Spirit to work with. If a primary teacher does as you said, but did not bother reading and pondering the lesson then the Spirit has nothing to work with and inspiration will not come. The same goes with investigating the Church. Right now, Seeking appears to be doing the first part, information gathering.

And, if a message board is an inappropriate avenue to seek out information, then most of the topics on these forums are inappropriate.

Seeking, if you haven't thought about it yet, perhaps you should consider attending some of our church meetings and talk to the missionaries. It might be easier to have sensitive discussions with someone face to face.

Ruthiechan, Seeker claims that he has read the BoM. He also claims that he is looking for a religion to subscribe to. Both of these are more than "information gathering", they fall into the prep work required to receive a testimony.

What are we told in Moroni 10:3-5?

3Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how amerciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and bponder it in your chearts.

4And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would aask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not btrue; and if ye shall ask with a csincere heart, with dreal intent, having efaith in Christ, he will fmanifest the gtruth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may aknow the btruth of all things.

Seeker has read "these things", he seems to have pondered them, so what is next? Ask God the Eternal Father in the name of Christ if these things are not true. With the prerequisite of asking with a sincere heart and real intent.

Pretty sure that I hit both of those prerequisites;

Clear your scedule for a few hours, find a quiet place where you can be alone and then pray. Not one of those quick 30 second prayers, and not one of the slightly longer 2 minute prayers. Have a discussion with Heavenly Father, He loves you and He wants you to talk to him. I am not guarenteeing an answer that meets with your aproval, but if you have an open mind, and REAL INTENT (meaning you are not challenging God, but you are willing to follow through on what is revealed to you) then I can assure you will be led to the path you should take.

There is no other way to gain a testimony of any religion, because every religion at some point asks you to believe in something you can not know. You seem to have done some of the prep work, so get off these boards for a bit and PRAY. Then come back and discuss your experience.

Yep, I sure did. So how is what I told Seeking to do even close to a Sunday School teacher praying for help without preparing a lesson? And as for internet message boards not being the place to gain a testimony, I stand by what I said. A testimony is gained not from what is read online, but from heartfelt prayer and the following witness of the spirit.

President Eyring tends to agree with me;

"We are taught in those inspired passages to begin our quest for testimony with a “particle of faith” and with desire for it to grow (see Alma 32:27). Tonight you have felt faith and that desire as you listened to stirring talks of the Savior’s kindness, His honesty, and of the purity His commandments and the Atonement made possible for us. So, a seed of faith is already planted in your heart. You may even have felt some of the expansion of your heart promised in Alma. I did.

But, like a growing plant, it must be nurtured or it will wither. Frequent and heartfelt prayers of faith are crucial and needed nutrients. Obedience to the truth you have received will keep the testimony alive and strengthen it. Obedience to the commandments is part of the nourishment you must provide for your testimony.

You remember the promise of the Savior: “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself” (John 7:17)." (How do I gain a testimony, Henry B. Eyring) Link

[MorningStar]

And of course that has everything to do with this thread. :)

In a deep, deep, deeeeeep way. Or perhaps to lighten the mood.

Another one I commonly hear is The Book of Mormon saying that God cursed people's skin, but if you read the story of the Amlicites, they marked themselves, not realizing they were fulfilling the word of God by doing so. As for skins, I think there was a thread around here that theorized that this was a coat of skins (like a uniform to separate one group from another).

Seeker, if people are getting defensive, it's because we get tired of the accusations of racism. People dig for things to accuse us with, ignoring things like the scripture I quoted above.

[ruthiechan]

Ruthiechan, Seeker claims that he has read the BoM. He also claims that he is looking for a religion to subscribe to. Both of these are more than "information gathering", they fall into the prep work required to receive a testimony.

We've had prophets and leaders who took years of diligent study before receiving a witness from the Holy Ghost.

[Family_Man]

We've had prophets and leaders who took years of diligent study before receiving a witness from the Holy Ghost.

And yet we have also had people who received a witness the first time they aproached Heavenly Father on the subject. I guess thats why He instructs us to talk to him, and yet no where in the scriptures does it say that we should "gather enough evidence to logically conclude" that the scriptures are true.

Weird, huh?

[JudoMinja]

I know I'm late coming into this, but I thought I'd take a stab at your questions Seeker.

The Lord teaches "line upon line, precept upon precept". Sometimes, people are simply not ready for the message he has to offer them. The people of Isreal, for instance, were given more when traveling through the desert with Moses and had to have it taken away because they were not ready to live it.

We also cannot understand all the things of God. Why were the African's not allowed to hold the Priesthood for a time? There is no perfect answer, because we do not know exactly why and God has not revealed his reasoning. I believe the link to the Curse of Cane holds some merit, but I also believe there is a tie to the people not being ready for it. And by "the people" I mean everyone as a whole. Not necessarily that the Africans were not ready to hold the Priesthood, but that the racism strong in the world caused many to be insufficiently prepared for such a ban to be lifted. Line upon line, precept upon precept. When the people were ready, they were given more.

Polygamy is another controversial topic in our faith, I believe for this same reason. Much like the Isrealites had to have some things taken away they were not ready for, the Saints were told to stop their practice of polygamy I think because the world is not ready for it.

Note how many times I've said "I think". Much of this is my own speculation, so please don't take my words to be exactly what the church as a whole believes.

Furthermore, Prophets do indeed have a direct line to God, but Prophets are human too. They are not perfect. Look at David in the Bible. He was a Prophet, but he still fell victim to his own weaknesses committing murder by proxy and adultery. Just because someone receives direct revelation from the Lord does not make everything they say and do perfect.

The Lord is perfect and His ways are perfect, but we are only given what we are prepared to live and handle. The Law of Moses was a portion of the gospel, and the additions offered by the Lord when he lived on earth was simply another portion. More portions were given with the restoration of the gospel, but we still don't know or understand everything that is of God. That will not come until the millenium.

[Guest]

If the church ever lifts the ban on priesthood authority for women, we're gonna have another one of these pow-wows... because, then, the church would be sexist.

Frankly, it's a tiresome discussion.

[mightynancy]

If the church ever lifts the ban on priesthood authority for women, we're gonna have another one of these pow-wows... because, then, the church would be sexist.

No. Then the church wouldn't be sexist anymore.

[slamjet]

If the Church started giving women the priesthood, then we men will be utterly useless.

[Dravin]

If the church ever lifts the ban on priesthood authority for women, we're gonna have another one of these pow-wows... because, then, the church would be sexist.

Frankly, it's a tiresome discussion.

Tis a fun game, any 'improvement' begs the question of why wasn't the Church perfect from the get go.

[estradling75]

Tis a fun game, any 'improvement' begs the question of why wasn't the Church perfect from the get go.

Oh thats not hard... The church (meaning the collection of individuals) was not ready so it has to be built up to it.

[slamjet]

Tis a fun game, any 'improvement' begs the question of why wasn't the Church perfect from the get go.

Wow, now THAT'S a question.

[Dravin]

Oh thats not hard... The church (meaning the collection of individuals) was not ready so it has to be built up to it.

Trust me, I fully understand why. What I'm getting at is that invariably someone comes along demanding to know how such a thing could be possible given what we claim to be. Now there are people asking legitimately, but it is the ones with bones to pick, who are looking less for an answer and more trying to use this neat little cudgel they've found that stick out and become tiresome.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Dravin

[Seeking]

Thanks for all of your posts. Please be aware that I am sincere in this learning process.

Not to single anyone out, but many thanks to Ruthiclan for your supportive words and generous heart...

[swampgeek]

I know full well that I am extremely new to these boards and late to this thread...

Many things have been said that lay out the majority of possibilities and probabilities involved in this particular instance in history.

There are multiple accounts throughout the scriptures where things were done under the direction of God and were not fully understood and just as many accounts of items instructed by God and "man\womankind" totally messed it up. I think we still have a long way to go in that regard as all things have yet to be revealed and we know this by how much is "missing" from the scriptures, historical documentation, even common historical events. Everyone needs to remember, it wasn't all that long ago that the majority of us wouldn't have been able to read in the first place, thought the earth was flat, Earth was the center of the Universe, and on and on... Wonder what we'll all KNOW tomorrow.

God does give us the things we can handle and oft times we STILL struggle with it. I live in the south, grew up with my share of prejudicial experiences and regularly attend church in Louisiana and Brooklyn NY. You want a culture shock, take in Gospel Doctrine classes on alternating Sundays from those two cities. We all still have a long way to go BUT I have no doubt we have come a long way so far.

Seeker, if you are truly a "seeker" then turn your heart toward God in a humble and sincere manner, then and only then will you find YOUR answers. No one gave me my testimony and no one can take it from me. You have to get that for yourself.

Peace,

Trent

[Matthew0059]

Thanks for all of your posts. Please be aware that I am sincere in this learning process.

Not to single anyone out, but many thanks to Ruthiclan for your supportive words and generous heart...

Seeking, the fact that you are still around and not getting argumentative speaks well to your motives here. I for one am glad that you're still researching the subject.

GOD bless.

[apexviper13]

2 Nephi 5:20 Wherefore, the word of the Lord was fulfilled which he spake unto me, saying that: Inasmuch as they will not hearken unto thy words they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And behold, they were cut off from his presence.

21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.

The skins were turned dark but that was not the curse. This is similar to Cain's curse. Cain was cursed and given a mark so people would know who he is. However, the mark wasn't the curse. The curse was being cut off from our Lord our God. The same applies to 2 Nephi 5:20-22 with the Lamanites. Read verse 20. That tells what the curse is. The Lamanites were cut off from the Lord our God; that was the curse. The dark skin was their mark just as Cain was marked. Verse 22 helps as well. "Save they shall repent of their iniquities." They were cursed because they sinned repeatedly with no sign of wanting to repent so they were cursed by being cut off from our Lord our God and the mark was the dark skin.