Born this way

[Soulsearcher]

I like that we're on the same ground, Soulsearcher. :)

Long before studying the LDS faith, I swore, much like Thomas Jefferson that Reason (yes, with a capital R) would be my guide. I cannot abide oppression. I think that if we, and others like us, started a movement to implement our ideas, we could succeed.

Again, I can't stress enough, out of all the sins that we are committing, loving another human being (of the "wrong" gender) can't be very high on God's list. I really hope he has mercy on us all.

LOL I'll admit I've pretty much given up on god and followers. They are who and what they are.

[Soulsearcher]

I have prayed about this, and before I hit submit on this post I prayed with this question. But, I don't think I'll ever know the answer in this life, but maybe in the next.

I do pose a thought. What if the answer is simple? What if scripture or translation isn't accurate? What if it really was just human bias instead of Gods word? LOL i know it will never be considered, but what if it was that simple?

[Corvus]

You know, if you had said that to me about five weeks ago, I would have agreed wholeheartedly. But after that one prayer that I sent out into the void last week, and the (what I perceive to be) miraculous response to it, I've started to wonder.

I don't know where I'll end up. I've got a agnostic/atheist wife that may disown me when she finds out I've been seriously considering joining the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. My whole family is deeply (and I mean DEEPLY) Catholic. Even trying to contact the missionaries has put me on really unstable ground. But in spite of all that, I still put in a message to them. I want to learn more.

As someone who is admittedly agnostic, I say to you don't give up hope Soulsearcher. :)

For the longest time, I thought that I could never believe the tripe that the masses believe. Yet here I am. Something is happening for me.

Regardless of whatever you think, do, or believe....if there is a God, He loves you. I'm starting to know that now. And it's making an incredible difference in my life, even in this short period of time where I've actually begun to accept it.

[Soulsearcher]

You know, if you had said that to me about five weeks ago, I would have agreed wholeheartedly. But after that one prayer that I sent out into the void last week, and the (what I perceive to be) miraculous response to it, I've started to wonder.

I don't know where I'll end up. I've got a agnostic/atheist wife that may disown me when she finds out I've been seriously considering joining the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. My whole family is deeply (and I mean DEEPLY) Catholic. Even trying to contact the missionaries has put me on really unstable ground. But in spite of all that, I still put in a message to them. I want to learn more.

As someone who is admittedly agnostic, I say to you don't give up hope Soulsearcher. :)

For the longest time, I thought that I could never believe the tripe that the masses believe. Yet here I am. Something is happening for me.

Regardless of whatever you think, do, or believe....if there is a God, He loves you. I'm starting to know that now. And it's making an incredible difference in my life, even in this short period of time where I've actually begun to accept it.

LOL i was raised strict catholic and well on my way to seminary, then went pagan, then LDS now agnostic. It's not so much i don't believe, i just have no faith in a good god, just a normal less than perfect "thing" out there.

[blackknight5k]

I do pose a thought. What if the answer is simple? What if scripture or translation isn't accurate? What if it really was just human bias instead of Gods word? LOL i know it will never be considered, but what if it was that simple?

Well, in my religious beliefs it is not that simple. It's not just one area of translation, it is a sin in the OT and in the NT, it is against the law of Chastity as defined by our church leaders. Also, I feel as if it is a sin - which you may not understand. I have no doubt in my mind that it is a sin, I just want to know why my brothers grew up to be this way.

[Corvus]

I hear you. Sometimes, I think that God is struggling along just like we are.

[Soulsearcher]

Well, in my religious beliefs it is not that simple. It's not just one area of translation, it is a sin in the OT and in the NT, it is against the law of Chastity as defined by our church leaders. Also, I feel as if it is a sin - which you may not understand. I have no doubt in my mind that it is a sin, I just want to know why my brothers grew up to be this way.

Actually most of the translations on homosexuality have been up for debate for a while now, with more than a few suggestions as to alternate meanings and wording, both OT and NT. Prophets have been seen to follow some societal trends according to some so really it could again be learned bias based of scriptures that are incorrect, same with personal feeling. Told your entire life with most everyone around you saying the same thing and you'd be surprised what you end up feeling. Take it from the guy who was in the closet til he was over 30, what you feel can greatly be influenced by your environment no matter how much we might like to attribute it to outside forces. Again I'm not saying it's the case, but notice how it's a simple answer but it will never even be considered, it's much easier for people to keep asking than consider this answer.

[blackknight5k]

Well, at this point we will just have to respectfully agree to disagree, my friend.

[Corvus]

Well, regardless of what we think or believe, we can all agree that the "sinner" is not to be shunned. Unlike what the evangelicals believe, right? Right?

[blackknight5k]

Love the Sinner, hate the sin is what I was always taught.

I can't and try not to judge - aside from homosexual activity, I think I've done everything else to violate the law of chastity in my life before now. Note: I have fully repented of all of this.

[Corvus]

I've done some very bad things in my life too, when it comes to sex.

Really, judging is not up to us. God and Christ will judge us according to what we have done. I can't help but feel that, in the long run, whom we choose to love will matter less, as opposed to if we have chosen to love at all.

Thank you, all for having this discussion. I feel, deep inside, that it has made me a better person for having it.

[prisonchaplain]

Slight thread hijack, but since modern Christianity has chosen to disregard much of the old Mosaic law, why hasn't the prohibition on homosexual acts been thrown out as well?

Regardless of all that, I still think that if God can forgive murderers, molesters, and all sorts of other vile behavior, He can forgive those whose only sin is wanting to love someone of the same gender.

A couple of short answers to these thoughts. Jesus takes the important moral laws of the OT and raises the standard on them. Do not commit adultry, say Moses? Jesus says don't even lust. Don't murder, says Moses? Jesus says to be careful about even calling someone a fool, in anger. The New Covenant did do away with much of God's covenant between him and the Jews. However, the moral standards did not go away. The great compromise of Acts 15 was that Non-Jews in the church would not need to be circumcised (ritual law). However, they would continue with the Jews to avoid eating pagan foods (because of the spiritual offensiveness to the Jewish believers), and that they would abstain from sexual immorality. So, that's why we get accused (unfairly) of cherry-picking our Old Testament laws. We siphoned the moral standards, while leave ritual Jewish covenant practices be.

As to forgiveness...absolutely. Gay sex is no worse that adultery. However, for the Christian believer, both are prohibited. So, we can repent...but then we must turn away from. No easy task for one with SSA, since there is no alternative outlet.

[Family_Man]

“Prophets of God have repeatedly taught through the ages that practices of homosexual relations, fornication, and adultery are grievous sins. Sexual relations outside the bonds of marriage are forbidden by the Lord. We affirm those teachings.” Teachings of Gordon B. Hinkley 1997

Seems pretty cut and clear to me. Not a lot of room for "misinterpitation" or a bad / poor translation.

That said, we are not called on to be "Judges in Israel" (well unless we are Bishops, Stake Predisnts etc), so while we should not condone the behavior, we also should not judge the sinner.

President Hinkley put it like this;

"We love them as sons and daughters of God. …" {what are people asking about us, Ensign Nov 1998}

I think that we all too often view Homosexuality the same way that lepers were viewed in ancient times, as unclean beings deserving segregation. However, instead of pointing at these people and shouting "unclean, unclean" we can take further note from President Hinkley:

“We want to help these people, to strengthen them, to assist them with their problems and to help them with their difficulties. But we cannot stand idle if they indulge in immoral activity, if they try to uphold and defend and live in a so-called same-sex marriage situation. To permit such would be to make light of the very serious and sacred foundation of God-sanctioned marriage and its very purpose, the rearing of families.”

{what are people asking about us, Ensign Nov 1998}

Bottom line, it is not our job to tell them that they are sinning. The same way it is not their job to tell us what our sins are. We also do not have a right to exclude them from activities that any other non member or non worthy member could participate in. Instead, it would seem to be a better idea to embrace the person as what they are; our spiritual brother or sister.

[HEthePrimate]

God doesn't make mistakes, but he does allow people to make mistakes, and he allows natural processes to run their course (usually, anyway!).

I think some things just happen, there's no particular reason for them. If a child is born with autism, it's not necessarily part of God's plan, but it may simply be a genetic/biological "mistake." If another child is born with extraordinary intelligence, it may just be a genetic thing. The real question is not what cards we were dealt, but what we do with those cards. Some people just are homosexual. It's not their fault, and they're not necessarily bad people. We shouldn't reject them just because they're gay. If they treat you poorly, I wouldn't blame you for not liking them, but if they're kind, decent, good people, what's the problem?

[findingmyway]

I have two close friends, 1 is gay, the other is a transsexual. I love em , we all know our boundaries. We laugh, we joke, we have fun like normal folks, and I would rather much see them happy like that, than to hide in the closet, and be angry at the world. I may not agree with them in lot of things, but we respect and love each other. All I can do, is be myself and they respect who I am and my beliefs. I promote love foremost and I would never judge less I be judged. However were born , I was born the way I am. Most important is not what we label ourselves, but what Heavenly Father sees us. I am a child of God.

[Lilac]

I get the song but aren't we all born this way? How far can you take that? That is not an excuse for everything under the sun. Lady Gaga and her followers would like you to believe that. No absolute right and no absoulte wrong. Just "it's not my fault, I was born this way" It's like a "get out of jail free" card. I'm an ax murderer...well, I was born this way!

Lady Gaga is not a religious person, to my knowledge. Funny she chose to write a song talking about God and how He makes us the way we are.

I think she took Chrisitan tenets of our faith and twisted it around to justify whatever she wants. And then shakes her behind while our young children chant along to it.

Satan is very deceptive...someone posted Satan says 9 lies and throws in one truth and we are all dazzled by the one truth. But we ingore the 9 lies?

Lady Gaga is a mixed up young person writing songs to encourage others to continue being mixed up and not look for God's Truth.

Just to make sure I'm not misunderstood, I'm not talking about sexuality. I'm talking about all sins/unGodly behavior.

Not a fan of that song at all.

[Blackmarch]

being born a certain way has never stopped those who have wanted to change it.... especially in this day and age.

I quite think it hypocritical when a group espouses that one can do a gender change or what not yet on the other you can,t change or hinder/reverse an attraction.

just doesnt make sense.

[Soulsearcher]

I get the song but aren't we all born this way? How far can you take that? That is not an excuse for everything under the sun. Lady Gaga and her followers would like you to believe that. No absolute right and no absoulte wrong. Just "it's not my fault, I was born this way" It's like a "get out of jail free" card. I'm an ax murderer...well, I was born this way!

Lady Gaga is not a religious person, to my knowledge. Funny she chose to write a song talking about God and how He makes us the way we are.

I think she took Chrisitan tenets of our faith and twisted it around to justify whatever she wants. And then shakes her behind while our young children chant along to it.

Satan is very deceptive...someone posted Satan says 9 lies and throws in one truth and we are all dazzled by the one truth. But we ingore the 9 lies?

Lady Gaga is a mixed up young person writing songs to encourage others to continue being mixed up and not look for God's Truth.

Just to make sure I'm not misunderstood, I'm not talking about sexuality. I'm talking about all sins/unGodly behavior.

Not a fan of that song at all.

One of the reasons she focused on this particular thought is that many religious people and even many churches at one point or another have made it clear that even the attractions are a) just as sinful and b) a selfish choice made by the individual. I don't argue if the actions are sinful enough, i leave that up to the faith of the person dealing with it themselves, what i and many have said is if you want people to respond don't blame them for who they are, support who they are trying to be with in the faith if they are trying. The article PC posted covers a lot of the mistakes made by churches and people of faith when dealing with the issue and how they miss the point completely in some cases. I don't see her suggesting to ignore gods truth, just not always listen to what's coming from organized religion. The fact the tone of the LDS church has changed dramatically, and even some of the stances have changed should say why this isn't the worst idea out there.

[Soulsearcher]

being born a certain way has never stopped those who have wanted to change it.... especially in this day and age.

I quite think it hypocritical when a group espouses that one can do a gender change or what not yet on the other you can,t change or hinder/reverse an attraction.

just doesnt make sense.

There is quite a large difference between gender change, which is physical alteration and attraction. The gender change is done with surgery and chemical treatments to obtain a result. It's using known technique and science to achieve a result. The fact no one can explain or even find the root of attraction in and of it's self shows why it would be more difficult. Biological, environmental and mental factors have all been considered and claimed and rejected by so many that one wouldn't even be sure what works best. Even the so called "specialists" that deal with changing attraction can't claim more than an 8-10% success rate and even of that % many "relapse" So far the best overall result that seems to work is just burying all attraction and pretty much going asexual, which mean the person won't have the tendency to sin but can also lead to other overall well being issues. One other thing to consider, many of the homosexuals who are most adamant about the innateness of being homosexual are those who either tried to change on their own truly wanting to change, or those who were forced to try and change by friends, family, religion, ect. With a very wide pool of experiences and results they make their claim of being unable to change, though i have not heard it said by any that it's 100% impossible to change, i have heard it said it's very unlikely to do so with any measurable success and remain healthy in mind and spirit.

[mightynancy]

I never chose to be hetero. I think that accepting homosexuality as a biological reality is the compassionate thing to do - as a leader, I would treat a homosexual saint just as I would any other unmarried saint.

I love this (bolding mine ~mn):

I do understand this, though understanding the origin not only helps the people afflicted as well as those trying to aid them. Telling a blind person it's all in their mind and it's their fault they can't see doesn't help that person get any closer to God. Finding out why they are blind and standing with them as they cope and providing a loving example would seem to have a greater and healthier impact would it not?

When approching seemingly intractable differences, I ask myself, "Who do I want to be? How do I want to act?" By seeking understanding, I gain a depth of knowledge. When we (hetero, faithful LDS) are compassionate listeners rather than judgemental accusers, we are lifted along with those we reach out to.

[carlimac]

I never chose to be hetero. I think that accepting homosexuality as a biological reality is the compassionate thing to do - as a leader, I would treat a homosexual saint just as I would any other unmarried saint.

I love this (bolding mine ~mn):

When approching seemingly intractable differences, I ask myself, "Who do I want to be? How do I want to act?" By seeking understanding, I gain a depth of knowledge. When we (hetero, faithful LDS) are compassionate listeners rather than judgemental accusers, we are lifted along with those we reach out to.

I agree that we need to act with compassion- especially when we don't walk in their shoes. But that compassion fades pretty fast when they demand that we acknowledge and accept their desire to have same gender sexual relations, simply because they were "born that way" and can't help themselves. Everyone who has any addiction or weakness was "born that way', too. So do we need to just accept that alcoholics can't help themselves and allow them to ruin society by driving drunk and beating up their families when they are sauced?

Our Father in Heaven has drawn a definite line between having weaknesses and acting on them. My observation about homosexuals on forums (not naming any names specifically because this isn't the only forum I read and participate in) trying so hard to "educate" us about homosexuality is that their intent comes down to really just trying to wear us down to the point of saying OK- you're right, we're wrong. Go and do it(meaning the whole getting married, having sex thing) with our blessing. That's their definition of us "being compassionate". We just can't go there as true believers in the Gospel and in God's plan. Homosexual relations just aren't part of the plan as far as it has been revealed to us through a prophet. There is no place for it. And if we give in to what they want from us, we AREN'T being compassionate. We are enabling their sin.

If we DO agree that they were just born that way, (and the jury is still out on that) my compassion falls within the context of the LDS doctrine and culture. Having a normal, happy family with mom, dad, kids as described in the Proclamation will be more difficult for them. I'm truly sorry that they will miss out on this experience. ( And don't try to tell us that you CAN achieve that same degree of happiness with your same gender partner. It's different. It can never be the same- ever!!) I also feel compassion for any single person who has some kind of problem that handicaps them in finding a spouse and having a family. I have a single cousin in his 60s who never married due to some serious psychological problems (not SSA) that he was "born with". I have compassion for him.

I really have a very hard time finding empathy in my heart for homosexuals who bash LDS beliefs and call us hateful bigots. And those who mock the notion of God's mere existence, who defile our temple grounds and belittle our prophet and leaders. Nor for those who say- "Oh oh, look how the church changed it's stance on Blacks holding the priesthood. They'll get worn down in time on homosexuality, too, because they are so spineless." I suppose if I were truly Christlike, I'd feel some kind of compassion for even them. "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you."

Funny that both sides feel persecuted by the other. If LDS need to be compassionate, then where is the understanding from the homosexual community? Our beliefs prevent us from granting them their every wish. If THEY were truely compassionate toward us, they would stop pestering us and marching on the temple grounds and having kiss-ins and sending 10,000 letters to the prophet. They would just quit all that annoying nonsense and allow us to live our religion. They say they do this to protect our gay youth from killing themselves. Hog wash!!! Let us protect our own. We could do our job of loving and supporting them better if the homosexual community would just leave these young kids alone. Quit preying on them and telling them they have no hope of ever changing.

Anyway, as you can see, I have a long way to go in developing true compassion. I am quite able to give it where it's obviously merited. But where I don't feel any reciprocation of respect, well... I'm not quite there yet. Sometimes I get closer to feeling compassion, but then Conference time comes around along with the inevitable gay whine fest and I lose it again.

Heaven help us all!

Edited March 27, 2011 by carlimac

[Soulsearcher]

Let us protect our own. We could do our job of loving and supporting them better if the homosexual community would just leave these young kids alone. Quit preying on them and telling them they have no hope of ever changing.

Just to point out one of many errors in your post. The homosexual community only relatively recently made the major push to support homosexual youth and try to end the high rate of suicide. before that push it was left to you to protect your own and you fell down on the job for a very long time, which is why it became such a huge issue. Also you miss the point of the message about change. It's not so much homosexuals tell the youth they can't change, it's more comforting them when after years of trying to change and being looked down on and blamed for the lack of change, the community lets them know it's not their fault. Again we aren't even talking about the behaviors that people are thinking sinful, we are talking about the fact that unless these kids end up straight they are still put through hell by many peers, family and other church goers unless they turn straight, even if they are living the words of the prophet and staying celibate and living the gospel to the best of their abilities and no this isn't just the LDS faith.

Also not everyone with an addiction is born with it. Some people are born with a higher likelihood of becoming addicted to some things, but not everyone and very rarely with specific addictions. Also it would depend on what you define as weakness as say if talking mentally or physical infirmity then no not all are born with it, people get injured every day and have to learn to cope or not. If you are talking weakness of character that does tend to be more in the way of environmental, though there has been some traits linked to biology.

Edited March 27, 2011 by Soulsearcher

[mightynancy]

So we only need to be compassionate when others play nice? Boy, do I feel duped!

[carlimac]

So we only need to be compassionate when others play nice? Boy, do I feel duped!

No. I said I'm having a struggle feeling compassion. You're probably doing just fine. No need for sarcasm.

[carlimac]

Just to point out one of many errors in your post.

This makes me smile. It's also pretty ...typical.