Questions about how the mods function

[carlimac]

THe other day we were having an enlightening discussion on the New York passage of gay marriage when it was abruptly closed by a moderator.

So now I'm wondering how the mods work. Do they collaborate on their opinions about a thread if it needs to be closed? Or does any mod have the power to close a thread at will, simply because they don't like the topic or think it's gotten out of hand?

I was a bit offended becuse I was in the middle of mentally working though some of the ideas being expressed, and had taken the time to write out a long thoughtful response only to find the thread abruptly closed and not able to post what I had written. When I complained about that happening and named the mod who closed the thread, my complaint post was removed.

Do you mods put your heads together or can you just do whatever you please without consulting each other?

Can a thread ever be re-opened if the mods don't agree about it being closed?

Can a mod be removed for rude behavior?

Just wondering?

[skippy740]

At the top of every forum has an "Announcement" to read the rules before posting.

Here is the link: Terms & Conditions » LDS Social Network

Moderating a discussion forum is a lot like leadership in the church (except for all the "confessing of sins" stuff). A lot of it is intuition.

That said, many moderators have had much more experience on this forum and with certain topics than I have had.

I will typically delete posts &/or close threads and then ask for consensus on any additional actions needed (if any).

This is a forum where we wish the Spirit to reside. But it takes active moderation to keep this forum as great of a resource it is.

Threads are rarely re-opened.

If you have a concern regarding a mod, you may send a mod a PM, or a Head Moderator a PM. If you don't feel comfortable with that, you may contact Heather. This is all according to the site rules in the link above.

One of the rules is this:

6. Posting issues you have with a moderator or administrator anywhere on the site will not be allowed. Please follow the chain of authority if you have any concerns. Any such posts will be removed and the poster will be subject to the consequences of breaking the rules.

[pam]

If you have a concern regarding a mod, you may send a mod a PM, or a Head Moderator a PM. If you don't feel comfortable with that, you may contact Heather. This is all according to the site rules in the link above.

Just a slight correction on this:

Course of action that should be taken if you have a concern:

- Send a message directly to the moderator you have a concern about. If you are unable to work out the problem then,

- Send a message to the head moderators.

- If after you have approached both avenues, you may then send a message to Heather; however know that Heather is very unlikely to over rule anything that has been sanctioned by the moderators and head moderators.

[carlimac]

Thank you for the info.

I am surprised, though that often I feel the spirit is definitely not there in a discussion. There are blatant put downs going on but the mods don't take any action. This happened to me the first time I posted on this forum. I was blasted right away for a few innocent questions and opinions about my husband taking a job that would take him away from his calling as bishop. I've been on many forums before but was flabbergasted by the treatment I recieved on an "LDS" forum.

I've often felt that uppity attitude from many board members since then. Gang responses, cliquishness (is that a word? ) and " You are so stupid" -written clearly between the lines. I'm sensitive but not completely thin skinned. These comments aren't always directed at me. It happens to others, too. I wouldn't be surprised if some fragile newcomer has lost testimony or developed a pretty sour attitude about members of the church due to this kind of treatment. It will often turn me away from this site for months at a time. But I have a short memory and tend to return here- who knows why? (duh)

So anyway, it seems like the moderation of this forum is a bit random. And that certain posters have acquired special status to say whatever they want without having their posts removed.

I would hope this could be place where kindness and civility are tops and that intelligent discussions are allowed to go on and ideas exchanged without the moderators cutting it off at will. That is very frustrating! Perhaps they could post a warning before closing a thread.

Thanks!

Edited June 29, 2011 by carlimac

[pam]

Any moderator can close a thread if they feel it is inappropriate or has gotten out of hand. I've never seen a moderator close a thread simply for the reason they don't like the subject.

Many times it is discussed prior to closing and we get a general consensus. Threads closed before a discussion are almost always discussed afterwards. Rarely is a thread reopened.

As the manager of lds.net, I have the job of selecting people as moderators who I think can remain unbiased. I'm thrilled with the moderating staff that we have. They come from such a variety of experiences, knowledge and I believe they do a pretty good and fair job of moderating.

This site has a mission. That is to further the gospel of Jesus Christ. The site is meant to be uplifting. Any threads that we feel take away from the mission of the site are closed. As moderators we must always keep in mind that we are moderating not only for our site members, but for those that might also be lurking. Those that might be investigating and looking for answers but may not feel comfortable actually joining a forum site. We have to constantly be thinking how some subjects might be taken and appear to the outside world.

Plus there are things that go on behind the scenes that people in the forums don't see. All areas of this site are moderated. Sometimes reasons we do things aren't necessarily what you are seeing in the forums but what are going on in areas of the site not visible to the normal user.

The thread that was closed, was discussed in a moderator discussion.

Edited June 29, 2011 by pam

[skippy740]

I'd like to address a few points in your post for some additional clarification (from my point of view anyway):

1. There are blatant put downs going on but the mods don't take any action.

I think there are certain posters who do make certain points in such a way that it could be misinterpreted as a put down (a personal attack) when they're really just hammering out and emphasizing a certain point.

2. Gang responses, cliquishness (is that a word? ) and " You are so stupid" -written clearly between the lines.

That's the problem with a text-based internet media format. What we read and what you read and interpret can be two very different things. If there's a problem, you can report any post by clicking on the and giving us an explanation. We're actually really quick to respond to post alerts.

3. I wouldn't be surprised if some fragile newcomer has lost testimony or developed a pretty sour attitude about members of the church due to this kind of treatment.

For every ward I've been in, there are some who are kinda "out there"... if you know what I mean? Every ward has at least one. We can try to be sensitive to people's feelings, but I think the council of Brigham Young comes into play here:

"To live with saints in heaven is full of bliss and glory. To live with saints on earth, is quite a different story."

4. And that certain posters have acquired special status to say whatever they want without having their posts removed.

I don't know what special status that could be. As long as a post has correct doctrine and is discussing the points and not personally attacking anyone... I wouldn't see a problem. Of course, please use the "report post" feature when you feel there's an issue with a poster or a particular post.

5. Perhaps they could post a warning before closing a thread.

I can agree with that, but it's also up to moderator discretion and the topic of the thread may also have to do with how quickly a thread is closed.

[pam]

Well I'm going to put a warning into this thread.

I've allowed it to remain open so that we can try and have a discussion about how the moderating staff works and answer questions.

And any time that a moderator feels that this is becoming nothing more than a bashing of the site moderators, it will be closed and deleted.

[carlimac]

Any moderator can close a thread if they feel it is inappropriate or has gotten out of hand. I've never seen a moderator close a thread simply for the reason they don't like the subject.

Many times it is discussed prior to closing and we get a general consensus. Threads closed before a discussion are almost always discussed afterwards. Rarely is a thread reopened.

As the manager of lds.net, I have the job of selecting people as moderators who I think can remain unbiased. I'm thrilled with the moderating staff that we have. They can from such a variety of experiences, knowledge and I believe they do a pretty good and fair job of moderating.

This site has a mission. That is to further the gospel of Jesus Christ. The site is meant to be uplifting. Any threads that we feel take away from the mission of the site are closed. As moderators we must always keep in mind that we are moderating not only for our site members, but for those that might also be lurking. Those that might be investigating and looking for answers but may not feel comfortable actually joining a forum site. We have to constantly be thinking how some subjects might be taken and appear to the outside world.

Plus there are things that go on behind the scenes that people in the forums don't see. All areas of this site are moderated. Sometimes reasons we do things aren't necessarily what you are seeing in the forums but what are going on in areas of the site not visible to the normal user.

The thread that was closed, was discussed in a moderator discussion.

I appreciate what you do. I'm sure it's a challenge to always be on the lookout.

I have no interest in being a mod myself but just want to make a tiny suggestion again. A warning that a thread is about to be closed would be appreciated (say a 15-30 min warning or so) so those of us in the discussion have a chance to reset our minds, or apologize if we've said something inappropriate, so that we don't end up feeling like we've had the rug yanked out from under us.

Thanks again!

[pam]

I have no interest in being a mod myself but just want to make a tiny suggestion again. A warning that a thread is about to be closed would be appreciated (say a 15-30 min warning or so) so those of us in the discussion have a chance to reset our minds, or apologize if we've said something inappropriate, so that we don't end up feeling like we've had the rug yanked out from under us.

I understand what you are saying here. Yet you must look at it from our perspective. At what point do we allow someone to get the last word in? You get one person posting, then it's closed and you have the next person complaining that they didn't get to say something before it was closed. When a thread is closed, it's because we, as moderators, feel everything that could be said has been said.

[carlimac]

I guess it's hard for you to know if someone else might have just one more insight- a really good, uplifting one to add. And they feel cheated if they don't get to add it. OH well. No use in taking this so seriously.

[pam]

Plus enlightening and uplifting are subjective. What might be to one may be not be to another.

This is a difficult site to moderate. While trying to keep the spirit and mission of the site, we also try to allow other discussions as well.

[estradling75]

I guess it's hard for you to know if someone else might have just one more insight- a really good, uplifting one to add. And they feel cheated if they don't get to add it. OH well. No use in taking this so seriously.

Save it offline... The subject in question will return and get another run... Just like all the other times its come back. When it does you can post your uplifting insight... then watch as the thread degrades until the mods close it.

[carlimac]

Save it offline... The subject in question will return and get another run... Just like all the other times its come back. When it does you can post your uplifting insight... then watch as the thread degrades until the mods close it.

;-)

[carlimac]

4. And that certain posters have acquired special status to say whatever they want without having their posts removed.

I don't know what special status that could be. As long as a post has correct doctrine and is discussing the points and not personally attacking anyone... I wouldn't see a problem. Of course, please use the "report post" feature when you feel there's an issue with a poster or a particular post.

I would guess that some posters have been here for so long that the mods or other long-times "know" them well enough to recognize that their sarcasm or tendency to hammer or push isn't really malicious. So no warnings are posted. No disciplinary action taken. That can really kill the courage of a poster new to the forum who may be timidly asking a tough question here that they just can't ask anyone in person in real life.

I know this because I've been on one board (a bunch of moms) for 8 yrs now and we know each other pretty well and pick up on the subtle nuances gained from "talking" together that long. Where I was befuddled and somewhat offended at times on that board at first, I learned over time the posters who were just blunt all the time or and the ones whose shocking sarcasm wasn't really as mean spirited as came across. There are only a handful of us who have stuck it out and still post, and we have matured and mellowed over the years so that really there is almost no argument or offense ever taken. Just friendship and respect. We are all different religions. There isn't much new traffic there anymore. It's become a refuge for the dozen or so of us who still post. The ones that don't come around have just become disinterested or just too busy. For someone to be treated rudely is almost unheard of on that board at this point.

This forum, on the otherhand has a huge amount of new traffic coming through. I would bet there are many, like me who, if they hang in there without giving up are still trying to "get" the many diverse personalities and styles of posting of the members. It really takes some effort to not get offended by some of the more blunt and sarcastic posters. I come and go, and everytime I come back I have to re-learn the "regular's" styles. I think there are tons of people who come here that get weeded out (intimidated) immediately. This isn't intentional on the part of the regular posters, but simply because trying to express things in words without the benefit of tone of voice and facial expression is really hard. Some of the more uninhibited or opinionated "oldie" posters probably don't recognize how they are coming across to a newbie.

Also there are some threads that a newer member might just make a total fool of themselves trying to join in on because they simply don't get the inside jokes. Many of you have met in person or have been around for years. That makes it doubly hard for more recent joiners to understand the gyst of certain threads. I guess that what I mean by cliquishness (still don't know if it's a word.) I'm not especially bothered by it. I can walk away and just go...Oh well, I didn't get it. There is life away from the internet. I was up to my eyeballs with an Activity Days project yesterday and today as well as running a household, so this evening was the first time I had to re-visit what felt like getting my tongue cut off the other night. I'm over it. Life goes on, but just wanted to ask these questions to understand better what the "rules" are.

Anyway, I think the bottom line for anyone using the internet to seek out or give advice, especially on an LDS forum is to be kind and Christlike. To be patient and take more care to think about what the person might be trying to express...to be sensitive to the underlying feelings. Haven't we been warned of that by general authorities in conference- to be civil in our computer discussions and to always try to be good examples of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I feel like I'm qualified to bring this up mostly because I'm on both edges of this lds.net "community"- not exactly new but not posting every day either. I have a little bit of a view from outside the forest. I know how it feels to be misunderstood...to try so hard to put my thoughts into written word, only to do it badly at times- then to be told by some regular poster "You're not making any sense" or "Why don't you say what you mean?" . That kind of thing is pretty un-Christlike IMHO (in my humble opinion). I have seen this kind of thing slip by the mods a few times. It might be that they just don't "hear" the barb since they know the poster well and have gotten past it over the years (?). I've been less than kind myself. I never feel good when that happens. I'm sorry for any offense I've spewed out myself. I really appreciate the posters who are kind and patient. There are some from whom the Spirit emmanates with every word, no matter the topic. They aren't always gifted writers but are gifted in expressing the love of Christ.

Well, I've spent too much time here. But since I do enjoy discussions online and still have many gospel/church related questions- enough to ask for another 52 years, I don't intend to run away for good with my tail between my legs everytime I get frustrated or have my sensitivies peppered.

Thanks always for the good advice and cyberhugs (Awww!) and for the insight that many of you have.

Edited June 29, 2011 by carlimac

[skippy740]

You actually (inadvertantly) brought up another good point. We have forum members all over the world. All of which have a different mastery of English - let alone typing it out.

Some people know how to help properly emphasize certain points so you can almost hear the "tone" in how they write. (I'd like to think I know how to do this.) :)

Others can't. Some are getting into the emotion of the dialogue and may not take the extra time to make proper emphasis in their posts.

Some people don't know how to write in paragraphs to save their life! (They're the ones with the large blocks of texts that are so difficult to understand because they just keep typing regardless of the change of ideas that they are presenting...)

In fact, at church next week, I challenge you to listen to other sunday school class participants as they read passages or scripture. The ones who are well-read, are probably the same ones that can emphasize their points and be decent speakers/writers. The others, probably have a harder time - especially online.

BTW, if you feel like you're "not in the joke"... just say "I must've missed that one?" Someone might post a link to the thread... then you can be "in the know".

Aren't forums fun??? :)

[Guest xforeverxmetalx]

Just wanted to say that I agree with a lot of the points on both sides here - sometimes I wonder why the mods do one thing or the other but I figure it's not easy and they're doing the best they can (and I thank you all for that).

A suggestion though, with the NY gay marriage thread closing... from what I understand the mods felt there was nothing left to say, or that it would go on for ages - why not add a section on the forum for debates such as that? As long as there aren't personal attacks or anything like that, I think that would be a good addition to these forums. I like those discussions - learning about other points of view, and what evidence and experience people have with that, and practicing my own skills of expressing my own views. Just throwing out the idea.

[pam]

Just wanted to say that I agree with a lot of the points on both sides here - sometimes I wonder why the mods do one thing or the other but I figure it's not easy and they're doing the best they can (and I thank you all for that).

A suggestion though, with the NY gay marriage thread closing... from what I understand the mods felt there was nothing left to say, or that it would go on for ages - why not add a section on the forum for debates such as that? As long as there aren't personal attacks or anything like that, I think that would be a good addition to these forums. I like those discussions - learning about other points of view, and what evidence and experience people have with that, and practicing my own skills of expressing my own views. Just throwing out the idea.

Then why not start a forum for tithing? Why not start a forum for Word of Wisdom? Why not start a forum for modesty?

We can't start forums for every subject that can go on forever and ever. Which a number of subjects could do.

[MarginOfError]

I would guess that some posters have been here for so long that the mods or other long-times "know" them well enough to recognize that their sarcasm or tendency to hammer or push isn't really malicious. So no warnings are posted. No disciplinary action taken. That can really kill the courage of a poster new to the forum who may be timidly asking a tough question here that they just can't ask anyone in person in real life.

This is one of those areas where chat was really helpful. Unfortunately, I think the rate of new member retention on the boards will suffer without the chat option. Us old timers may have to think of a way to satisfy the instantaneous need to learn about long term members with the limitations of the options available to us.

[rameumptom]

There were problems with chat that I will not go into details on here. Moderators did not have the time to monitor it at all hours for the things occurring. So it was removed.

Having been a past moderator, I know that the Mods do not close thread via knee-jerk reaction. They are often very patient. But to maintain the list, it requires some order and discipline. Given the variety of people we get here means that discipline sometimes requires taking difficult choices and steps.

I've been on email lists and forums since 1990. I've seen many great forums melt down because of anarchic people who chose to push their agenda, regardless the costs. Dr William Hamblin sponsored one of the very first LDS scholar lists on the Internet, even prior to regular people knowing what an Internet was (it was limited to colleges and government). Because of a couple people who began a flame war, it melted down. He left the open Internet world for many years because of it. Thankfully, he's back.

I can see where such discussions as gay marriage and other sensitive topics can quickly turn to flame wars. For this reason, Mods have to be quick to decide and act sometimes. And those decisions are not always popular.

Personally, I think Pam does a great job as Head Mod. I may not agree with all her decisions, but I respect her right to make them.

[carlimac]

This is one of those areas where chat was really helpful. Unfortunately, I think the rate of new member retention on the boards will suffer without the chat option. Us old timers may have to think of a way to satisfy the instantaneous need to learn about long term members with the limitations of the options available to us.

I've only ever done chat on any board about twice because it moves too fast for me.

[carlimac]

I think it requires treading lightly at first with newcomers, just like you would do in real life rather than verbally bowling them over. Be polite. Keep the "judgement of personal character" type comments out of the discussion. They aren't helpful unless the poster is asking the members here specifically to judge an aspect of their character. One of the first comments to me when I became a member and asked a troubling question was something to the effect of "Why don't you grow up." Yikes!! I looked that up and yes, a mod did step in. (Thank you John Doe) I wasn't remembering that yesterday. And several others came to my defense which I appreciated.

It's just tricky at times. The nuances are all pretty subtle. Some people will be offended more quickly than others. But I would suggest that if we have the spirit with us as we try to answer questions and offer opinions that we'll know when we're stepping over the line. This is a delicate thing I'm constantly trying to teach my children. They forever want to blame the fallout for their own nasty behavior on someone else. But if they take a minute to evaluate what they just said and how they said it, they will hopefully see how hurtful or inflammatory their comments were. Better yet, if they take a just a second to ask themselves if they are feeling like a bully or just plain mean before they say something, then keep it in check! The spirit can always let us know beforehand if what we're going to say or do is appropriate. It takes a huge amount of being in tune and then discipline to keep from gratifying ourselves with making a snarky comment. I'm still working on that, myself...obviously. But no excuses. It's a refining process. I'm not perfect - yet. :-)

Edited June 29, 2011 by carlimac

[applepansy]

Personally, I think Pam does a great job as Head Mod. I may not agree with all her decisions, but I respect her right to make them.

I agree 100%

[carlimac]

One more tiny question...are we to not ever post anything about homosexuality here again? It is one of the most perplexing current trends that we as LDS have to deal with. It is extremely controversial but I feel it helps to talk to LDS members about it to sort it out in my own mind. I haven't found any friends willing to talk about it in real life. When I do bring it up, the reaction is usually "Ick!"- end of discussion-really closed-minded blanket dismissal of the topic. I don't think it's an issue to be swept under the rug. It's not going away and as LDS we need to prepare ourselves to face living with it all around us.

Any suggestions?

[Vort]

One more tiny question...are we to not ever post anything about homosexuality here again? It is one of the most perplexing current trends that we as LDS have to deal with. It is extremely controversial but I feel it helps to talk to LDS members about it to sort it out in my own mind. I haven't found any friends willing to talk about it in real life. When I do bring it up, the reaction is usually "Ick!"- end of discussion-really closed-minded blanket dismissal of the topic. I don't think it's an issue to be swept under the rug. It's not going away and as LDS we need to prepare ourselves to face living with it all around us.

Any suggestions?

Frankly, it is kind of an icky topic. I also am of the opinion that the homosexual lobby wishes for people to keep talking about homosexuality -- pro, con, or otherwise -- to further the normalization process. So personally, I feel no dearth of homosexuality threads.

On the other hand, if someone is having issues with it or wants information or opinions, many a thread has already been spun on the topic. So I guess you can always spin another.

[estradling75]

Homosexuality is not a forbidden topic. You can post about it.

It is a however a very volatile topic, with lots of strong opinions due to various reasons(some of which you mentioned). This usually results in quick descent in to rule breaking, or locking up into just venting without any real discussion going on. Which will get them closed.