This Question is Wrecking my Faith.

[unixknight]

So I bring it before the forum.

I've been struggling for a long time with trying to get myself back into the groove at Church, and spent many hours in meditation, prayer, study, discussion, wash, rinse, repeat and I am coming up empty. The answer to this question is beyond me but I'm not arrogant enough to assume that the answer does not exist simply because I haven't found it.

The question:

Compare the verses

"Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them."

-Mark 11:24

"And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him."

-1 John 5:14,15

And these verses really only represent what I've been taught so I'll elaborate a bit here...

On the one hand, we seem to have a promise from the Lord that if we pray in faith, He will answer. Period. That seems to be a completely unqualified promise. So far so good.

On the other hand, we seem to have what comes across as fine print... I have been taught to pray with the following phrase in mind: "...if it be Thy will..." as a way to sort of acknowledge that one can hardly expect to pray for a million dollars and expect it to happen unless for whatever reason God wills it.

My conundrum: It's sometimes VERY discouraging to pray, in faith, believing that the prayer is heard, only to have nothing come of it, and have somebody say "Well, remember, all is in accordance with God's will..."

Well doesn't that seem a little like an escape clause? Sort of a way to believe in prayer but having a handy excuse (for lack of a better word) ready to go when nothing happens?

"Oh well... I guess it was God's will that nothing came of my prayer"

I know it takes faith... But faith has to be built on something. It doesn't take a vast amount of faith to get started even. When I read this verse:

"And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you."

-Luke 17:6

All I can think is a mustard seed must be a LOT bigger than I thought...

I've always thought my faith was pretty strong but the longer I go without being able to reconcile the above, the harder it gets to avoid becoming cynical.

So with what remains of my faith I accept that I must be missing something. I still think the problem is in my own understanding, but I can't figure it out on my own.

What do you think, brothers and sisters? How do you reconcile this? I'm hanging by a thread here. (Pun intended )

[tubaloth]

I suggest you talk a look at the Lectures on Faith. Really Figure out what Faith is. Their isn't as much as I would hope for about knowing God Love us. Thats what Faith is. That we trust God knows best!

The 6th Lecture deals with knowing our lives are following Gods will.

Take a look.

And you need some Alma 32 in their also.

[Seminarysnoozer]

"Pray in faith" means that one prays with God's will in mind. The only things worth praying for are those that are in alignment with God's will. If it is done sincerely, I would consider the possibility that what is asked for is not in alignment with God's will. The purpose of prayer, often, is to make sure one is on the "same page" as God. As Changed said, make sure it is not your want.

[unixknight]

Thanks guys so much for the replies thus far.

I understand what you're saying (I think) and I have some more questions...

See, as a computer programmer I have a very analytical mind and so I have a follow-up question not meant as a challenge, but rather to help me understand thoroughly so please bear with me.

I'll try and paraphrase what you're saying to be sure I understand.

• If prayer isn't answered, then that means it wasn't in accordance with God's will to begin with.

• When prayer is answered, it's when we let go and allow God's will to be in control, not our own desire.

If I understand correctly, then that leaves me with these thoughts (again, not meant as a challenge, but to help me fill in these gaps)

It sort of sounds like prayer is only answered when it's for something that would have happened anyway, such that we get what we ask for only if we ask for what's already coming. Or the converse: Desires are fulfilled only when we don't have such desires anymore.

So I still think I'm missing something.

I'll offer a concrete example to work from.

Suppose a person is suffering from stress over something specific. It might be finances, it might be a job, it might be family... doesn't matter. Now let's suppose that person kneels down in prayer and asks God to relieve him/her of some of that stress so that they can think clearly, make the right decisions, be strong for others, etc. Now, I'm talking about stress lasting days, maybe weeks... not just one moment of panic.

Now suppose that despite all that prayer, nothing changes. The stress remains. Should I say to that person "In order to have God take away your stress, you have to stop stressing."

Or.

"Despite Mark 11:24, God's didn't answer your prayer because it conflicted in some way with His plan. Sorry dude."

What am I missing?

[Connie]

Just some book recommendations:

Do Your Prayers Bounce Off the Ceiling? by Grant Worth

Drawing on the Powers of Heaven by Grant Von Harrison

Unlocking the Powers of Faith by Garth Allred

[Seminarysnoozer]

Thanks guys so much for the replies thus far.

I understand what you're saying (I think) and I have some more questions...

See, as a computer programmer I have a very analytical mind and so I have a follow-up question not meant as a challenge, but rather to help me understand thoroughly so please bear with me.

I'll try and paraphrase what you're saying to be sure I understand.

• If prayer isn't answered, then that means it wasn't in accordance with God's will to begin with.

• When prayer is answered, it's when we let go and allow God's will to be in control, not our own desire.

If I understand correctly, then that leaves me with these thoughts (again, not meant as a challenge, but to help me fill in these gaps)

It sort of sounds like prayer is only answered when it's for something that would have happened anyway, such that we get what we ask for only if we ask for what's already coming. Or the converse: Desires are fulfilled only when we don't have such desires anymore.

So I still think I'm missing something.

I'll offer a concrete example to work from.

Suppose a person is suffering from stress over something specific. It might be finances, it might be a job, it might be family... doesn't matter. Now let's suppose that person kneels down in prayer and asks God to relieve him/her of some of that stress so that they can think clearly, make the right decisions, be strong for others, etc. Now, I'm talking about stress lasting days, maybe weeks... not just one moment of panic.

Now suppose that despite all that prayer, nothing changes. The stress remains. Should I say to that person "In order to have God take away your stress, you have to stop stressing."

Or.

"Despite Mark 11:24, God's didn't answer your prayer because it conflicted in some way with His plan. Sorry dude."

What am I missing?

I am not a computer programer or an engineer, so maybe others can relate more to the 'binary' fashion of thinking.

We are here, in this life, to learn to overcome carnal passions. Prayer can help us do that by learning something about ourselves and separating what things in this life come from our carnal desires versus spirit driven desires. If God wants us to learn how to overcome these kinds of things, He has to give us opportunity to do so, despite our occasional rebellion against submitting ourselves to such challenges. The lack of getting what one asks for out of prayer may not be a statement of that thing is against God's will, in other words, as it is a statement that God is glad to see that that person is working on something important and succeeding, keep up the good work!

If my child fell off the bicycle once, I wouldn't automatically put the training wheels back on the bike, I might give them another opportunity to fall off the bike again. Because, that child is working it out for themselves. Now, if they were riding the bike and falling and really hurting themselves then I might say wait a minute, your not ready for this challenge yet. So, sometimes a non-answer, is to say that this is a challenge which the person has the ability to overcome ... why take it away then and take away their chance to succeed in overcoming the challenges of this world?

[Seminarysnoozer]

By the way, "stress" is not as external as everyone makes it out to be. Why, when you drive down the road, do you see one person 'white knuckling' the steering wheel and the next car over there is someone singing a song to the radio playing? They are both in the same situation and yet acting completely different. It is because that is how their mind interprets the situation, some of that based in past experience and some of it is just perceived. But there is a component of that that is variable and can be manipulated. The ability to manipulate that reaction is something that can be learned. I like the recent article "Looking for the good" by Uchtdorf that talks about seeing the glass half full instead of half empty.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer
typo

[Traveler]

So I bring it before the forum.

I've been struggling for a long time with trying to get myself back into the groove at Church, and spent many hours in meditation, prayer, study, discussion, wash, rinse, repeat and I am coming up empty. The answer to this question is beyond me but I'm not arrogant enough to assume that the answer does not exist simply because I haven't found it.

The question:

Compare the verses

"Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them."

-Mark 11:24

"And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him."

-1 John 5:14,15

And these verses really only represent what I've been taught so I'll elaborate a bit here...

On the one hand, we seem to have a promise from the Lord that if we pray in faith, He will answer. Period. That seems to be a completely unqualified promise. So far so good.

On the other hand, we seem to have what comes across as fine print... I have been taught to pray with the following phrase in mind: "...if it be Thy will..." as a way to sort of acknowledge that one can hardly expect to pray for a million dollars and expect it to happen unless for whatever reason God wills it.

My conundrum: It's sometimes VERY discouraging to pray, in faith, believing that the prayer is heard, only to have nothing come of it, and have somebody say "Well, remember, all is in accordance with God's will..."

Well doesn't that seem a little like an escape clause? Sort of a way to believe in prayer but having a handy excuse (for lack of a better word) ready to go when nothing happens?

"Oh well... I guess it was God's will that nothing came of my prayer"

I know it takes faith... But faith has to be built on something. It doesn't take a vast amount of faith to get started even. When I read this verse:

"And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you."

-Luke 17:6

All I can think is a mustard seed must be a LOT bigger than I thought...

I've always thought my faith was pretty strong but the longer I go without being able to reconcile the above, the harder it gets to avoid becoming cynical.

So with what remains of my faith I accept that I must be missing something. I still think the problem is in my own understanding, but I can't figure it out on my own.

What do you think, brothers and sisters? How do you reconcile this? I'm hanging by a thread here. (Pun intended )

For years I have pondered your paradox and have developed what I call the 5 pillars of divine intervention. If you can understand UNIX you can understand the rest of my post.

1. G-d will not do for man what man can do for himself.

2. G-d will do for man what man cannot do for himself.

3. G-d will not do for man that which is to his eternal determent.

4. G-d will do for man that which is for his eternal benefit.

5. G-d will not intervene with man’s Agency and therefore will not do for him without his conference.

As far as prayer is concerned I recommend you carefully read from the LDS bible dictionary under title of Prayer. I think you will find a few “surprises” that will assist you in your quest.

The Traveler

[LDSJewess]

Thanks guys so much for the replies thus far.

I understand what you're saying (I think) and I have some more questions...

See, as a computer programmer I have a very analytical mind and so I have a follow-up question not meant as a challenge, but rather to help me understand thoroughly so please bear with me.

I'll try and paraphrase what you're saying to be sure I understand.

• If prayer isn't answered, then that means it wasn't in accordance with God's will to begin with.

• When prayer is answered, it's when we let go and allow God's will to be in control, not our own desire.

If I understand correctly, then that leaves me with these thoughts (again, not meant as a challenge, but to help me fill in these gaps)

It sort of sounds like prayer is only answered when it's for something that would have happened anyway, such that we get what we ask for only if we ask for what's already coming. Or the converse: Desires are fulfilled only when we don't have such desires anymore.

So I still think I'm missing something.

I'll offer a concrete example to work from.

Suppose a person is suffering from stress over something specific. It might be finances, it might be a job, it might be family... doesn't matter. Now let's suppose that person kneels down in prayer and asks God to relieve him/her of some of that stress so that they can think clearly, make the right decisions, be strong for others, etc. Now, I'm talking about stress lasting days, maybe weeks... not just one moment of panic.

Now suppose that despite all that prayer, nothing changes. The stress remains. Should I say to that person "In order to have God take away your stress, you have to stop stressing."

Or.

"Despite Mark 11:24, God's didn't answer your prayer because it conflicted in some way with His plan. Sorry dude."

What am I missing?

Hi Unixknight,

I think we all have that question at one time or another. I know I have. Somehow along the way I changed my thinking about God and what he will and will not do. I believe he watches over me, loves me guides me, comforts me, and best of all he created me and gave me life. And along with my life he gave me a handbook and the more I read and try to follow the handbook, I acquire a better understanding.

What I have personally learned over the years; (and keep in mind this is only what I have learned and how I perceive God), is that God is not an ATM machine or a Genie in a bottle where we can call on him and ask for a million dollars, or magically lose 40 pounds of excess weight, or that he will lower my blood sugar, blood pressure or cause my panic attacks or stress to just cease to exist at my prayerful bidding. God is also not a puppeteer that controls the conditions of our lives. That free agency in our lives is what oten controls our lives or creates a cause and effect response.

I believe since God gave us life, a handbook, talents, and powers we have yet to discover, and the free agency and thinking capacity to learn and understand and work it out. So in addition to faith and prayer we need to come to an understanding and take a pro active approach.

For instance; I ask God to make be better off financially. My answer is that God gave me the talents and abilities to find a way to create better finances. I ask God to help me lose weight or to have improved health. And the answer is that I take the time to learn what changes in my lifestyle will create better health. I ask God to take away my stess (for me some of that stress involved long term panic attacks). And my answer was that I was not born with stress. I did not come to Earth with stress. I had to learn a better way to react to stressors and learn about ways to make the changes within my life to live calmer and more peaceful. I ask God to help me lose weight. And the answer is to gain a better understaning of what I need to do to make the changes in my life that will result in weight loss. I ask God for a partner, and then I have the faith to learn and understand the kind of person I want in my life and how to surround myself with the right people.

I believe that if we just pray and do not do our part in utilizing the gifts and talents and ability to learn and understand; then we will not learn to be co-creators with God.

Let's face it, if we have to someday learn to preside over worlds and be like God, how can we learn to do that if we cannot manage yet to control our thinking, our emotions, our stresses and our health, finances etc:

I believe that praying with the faith that God has already given us the tools to obtain our hearts desires is how we get the results that we want. And remember that there are times when our prayers are not for things in our best interest, but we can create that result too but in so doing have to deal with the consequences of bring to ourselves something that is not good for us at all. In those cases I would be thankful for unanswered prayer.

The more we read ernestly to learn of Gods plan for us, and the more we try to be more Christ Like, the more we will understand what to pray for in faith and learn how to manifest good things in our lives.

It's a long journey but worth the ride.

[dahlia]

Suppose a person is suffering from stress over something specific. It might be finances, it might be a job, it might be family... doesn't matter. Now let's suppose that person kneels down in prayer and asks God to relieve him/her of some of that stress so that they can think clearly, make the right decisions, be strong for others, etc. Now, I'm talking about stress lasting days, maybe weeks... not just one moment of panic.

Now suppose that despite all that prayer, nothing changes. The stress remains. Should I say to that person "In order to have God take away your stress, you have to stop stressing."

Or.

"Despite Mark 11:24, God's didn't answer your prayer because it conflicted in some way with His plan. Sorry dude."

What am I missing?

I don't know - human agency? I was under some major stress last spring. I struggled to shape things to my will and avoid a certain action and I could not. I prayed for things to change and for me not to have to take the action I feared. But in the end, when I used my God-given, human intelligence and examined the problem, I saw that there was no way God was going to take the problem away from me with some stroke of His hand. I was going to have to work through this issue myself - and I did. I didn't like it, it wasn't easy, but I did it.

The other thing I did was thank God that a solution, though distasteful to me, was possible. I didn't die, I didn't lose my job, no one but me and a few people knew what was going on. To paraphrase Mick Jagger, I didn't get what I wanted, but I did get what I needed, and I'm thankful for that.

Personally, I get worried when we look for God to change the laws of physics, finance, or a myriad of other things as we ask for His intervention. I look to God to open my eyes and clear my brain so I can find the solutions that are out there. And when there truly is no solution, I look to God to grant me the grace to deal with it. I don't think I'm special. I don't expect God to intercede for me but not for some leukemia patient in the hospital.

I think God's answer is often, "sorry, dude." I don't expect much else, maybe I should, but I don't. I don't get 'lost' in scripture. I don't try to reconcile words written at different times, by different people, in different cultures. I just deal with what is, which means you can't always get what you want. I don't think God has much to do with it, actually.

This probably didn't help you much.

[JudoMinja]

Here's a fairly recent thread that I think might help you out-

Increasing Faith

It discusses the quote about the mustard seed.

Also, lets look at the context of your first scripture- Mark 11:24. Christ is specifically talking about ones "authority" to perform "miracles" (aka. moving a mountain). Considering that context, I think the word "pray" here would more accurately be stated as "call upon God". He is talking more about the Priesthood than about prayer, and the Priesthood is the power to act in God's name. Our desires have to be in line with God's desires if we are to be capable of doing such things as moving mountains. And the topical guide references 3 Nephi 18:20, which reads:

"And whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is right, believing that ye shall receive, behold it shall be given unto you." (emphasis added)

It is quite possible, that this is one of those Biblical scriptures that had a portion of the truth removed. References connecting to the Book of Mormon, like this one to 3 Nephi, help us understand what message was really intended by returning the "plain and precious things" to us.

Now for the example you provided in your second post...

God does not just hand us the answers on a silver platter. He wants us to learn. Have you ever seen the movie The Pagemaster? Where would we be, if God just brought us to the end with the turn of a page? When we pray for help, God DOES answer those prayers, we just don't always see the answer for what it really is. He may not take the stress away like we would prefer, but He will give us guidance so that we can become strong enough to overcome that stress. He might "show" us an easier path, but we have to have our eyes open to see it.

There is a story about a city that was going to be flooded. The weatherman was charting the course of a hurricane and people were being evacuated. A man said he wouldn't leave because he trusted that the Lord would save him. When the flood waters started rising, people passed him in a boat and asked him to get in. He refused, trusting in the Lord to save him. Eventually, he was sitting on his roof and a helicopter came by to pick him up. He again refused... When he drowned and faced God at the pearly gates, he asked "Why didn't you save me?" God's reply was, "I warned the weatherman, sent the boat, and sent the helicopter, and you refused them all."

Sometimes we trap ourselves in a narrowminded thinking and simply can't see the answers we are already receiving to our prayers. We have to act as though everything depends on ourselves, and pray as though everything depends on the Lord. Think outside the box and look to the resources you know to be out there instead of just expecting a "miracle" to save you from the flood.

Edited July 11, 2011 by JudoMinja

[LittleWyvern]

I know a lot of people have already given their answers but I'll see what I can do :)

Compare the verses

"Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them."

-Mark 11:24

"And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him."

-1 John 5:14,15

And these verses really only represent what I've been taught so I'll elaborate a bit here...

On the one hand, we seem to have a promise from the Lord that if we pray in faith, He will answer. Period. That seems to be a completely unqualified promise. So far so good.

On the other hand, we seem to have what comes across as fine print... I have been taught to pray with the following phrase in mind: "...if it be Thy will..." as a way to sort of acknowledge that one can hardly expect to pray for a million dollars and expect it to happen unless for whatever reason God wills it.

My conundrum: It's sometimes VERY discouraging to pray, in faith, believing that the prayer is heard, only to have nothing come of it, and have somebody say "Well, remember, all is in accordance with God's will..."

Keep in mind that the scripture in Mark was Christ talking to the Apostles, and the scripture in 1 John was delivered to a more general audience. Christ trusted the Apostles (except Judas, of course) so much that he pretty much knew that he would never ask anything amiss. But I don't think that this is the full answer though. How do we become so in tune that we won't ever ask anything that isn't according to the will of God? I think the full answer can be found in the Bible Dictionary, under "Prayer":

As soon as we learn the true relationship in which we stand toward God (namely, God is our Father, and we are his children), then at once prayer becomes natural and instinctive on our part (Matt. 7:7–11). Many of the so-called difficulties about prayer arise from forgetting this relationship. Prayer is the act by which the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into correspondence with each other. The object of prayer is not to change the will of God, but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant, but that are made conditional on our asking for them. Blessings require some work or effort on our part before we can obtain them. Prayer is a form of work, and is an appointed means for obtaining the highest of all blessings.

So, prayer isn't really "guessing" the will of God, but becoming more unified, so that our will becomes His will, in a sense.

"And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you."

-Luke 17:6

All I can think is a mustard seed must be a LOT bigger than I thought...

I don't think the analogy was only meant to be small: there are smaller seeds which would be known to those living at the time in that location, but the analogy is meant to be a capability of growth or "aliveness." Mustard plants grow quite tall for bushes, and in the Middle East they grow even taller, almost become trees (see Matt 13:32). This analogy, from small to big, is what I think was meant.

I'll try and paraphrase what you're saying to be sure I understand.

• If prayer isn't answered, then that means it wasn't in accordance with God's will to begin with.

• When prayer is answered, it's when we let go and allow God's will to be in control, not our own desire.

If I understand correctly, then that leaves me with these thoughts (again, not meant as a challenge, but to help me fill in these gaps)

It sort of sounds like prayer is only answered when it's for something that would have happened anyway, such that we get what we ask for only if we ask for what's already coming. Or the converse: Desires are fulfilled only when we don't have such desires anymore.

I don't think prayer is that weak. "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord." (Isaiah 1:18) I'm not saying, of course, that God is governed by the prayers of men, but as the Bible Dictionary quote said, through prayer the will of the Father and the will of the Son are brought in correspondence.

So I still think I'm missing something.

I'll offer a concrete example to work from.

Suppose a person is suffering from stress over something specific. It might be finances, it might be a job, it might be family... doesn't matter. Now let's suppose that person kneels down in prayer and asks God to relieve him/her of some of that stress so that they can think clearly, make the right decisions, be strong for others, etc. Now, I'm talking about stress lasting days, maybe weeks... not just one moment of panic.

Now suppose that despite all that prayer, nothing changes. The stress remains. Should I say to that person "In order to have God take away your stress, you have to stop stressing."

Or.

"Despite Mark 11:24, God's didn't answer your prayer because it conflicted in some way with His plan. Sorry dude."

What am I missing?

I don't think it's any of those, or even "You didn't understand the will of God" as my answer above might be. My guess would be "Perhaps this is part of your answer" or "You need to ask for something more specific."

If you can understand UNIX you can understand the rest of my post.

Haha, you win. *unix high five!*

[Guest Sachi001]

My conundrum: It's sometimes VERY discouraging to pray, in faith, believing that the prayer is heard, only to have nothing come of it, and have somebody say "Well, remember, all is in accordance with God's will..."

Well doesn't that seem a little like an escape clause? Sort of a way to believe in prayer but having a handy excuse (for lack of a better word) ready to go when nothing happens?

"Oh well... I guess it was God's will that nothing came of my prayer"

Ahem....All prayers are answered. Just some don't realize the answer is right in front of them. It just maybe what your not looking at or wanting to see or hear what has been given. There is no "escape clause". I'll size it up to you as introspect to your house of order.

D&C 29: 32-35

32aFirst bspiritual, secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work; and again, first temporal, and secondly spiritual, which is the last of my work—

33aSpeaking unto you that you may naturally understand; but unto myself my works have no bend, neither beginning; but it is given unto you that ye may understand, because ye have asked it of me and are agreed.

34Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a alaw which was btemporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created.

35Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an aagent unto himself; and I gave unto him commandment, but no temporal commandment gave I unto him, for my bcommandments are cspiritual; they are not natural nor temporal, neither carnal nor sensual.

Do you understand now?

Edited July 12, 2011 by Sachi001

[unixknight]

I know a lot of people have already given their answers but I'll see what I can do :)

Actually, with all the answers given there has been a lot of great info and wisdom, but I think yours was the one that "clicked" for me.

You're not a programmer by any chance, are you?

I don't think prayer is that weak. "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord." (Isaiah 1:18) I'm not saying, of course, that God is governed by the prayers of men, but as the Bible Dictionary quote said, through prayer the will of the Father and the will of the Son are brought in correspondence.

"

I think this was the clicker for me. I'm going to ponder this but this is a much better perspective than where I'd been coming from before.

Haha, you win. *unix high five!*

Book Of Mormon | grep prayer

[LittleWyvern]

Actually, with all the answers given there has been a lot of great info and wisdom, but I think yours was the one that "clicked" for me.

You're not a programmer by any chance, are you?

Yeah, but I'm not any good yet

Book Of Mormon | grep prayer

Haha, I'm going to write a bash script now just so I can actually do that

[Universeman]

My conundrum: It's sometimes VERY discouraging to pray, in faith, believing that the prayer is heard, only to have nothing come of it, and have somebody say "Well, remember, all is in accordance with God's will..."

Well doesn't that seem a little like an escape clause? Sort of a way to believe in prayer but having a handy excuse (for lack of a better word) ready to go when nothing happens?

"Oh well... I guess it was God's will that nothing came of my prayer"

As near as I can tell and as far as I can recall I have only ever received one no kidding "and the heavens opened up" type of response to a prayer. The Holy Ghost is very wise, the witness I received was exactly what I needed at the time but in reflection it did nothing to strengthen my testimony but after the experience (without going into details) I knew that the Savior loved me and knows who I am (in spite of my weaknesses and sins and everything, makes no difference to the Savior though, if we are trying our best to do better). So here’s my take on how prayers are answered, first things first however, in my patriarchal blessing I was advised to strive as best I can to think as God thinks. With that in mind, when I received that response to my heartfelt prayer, I was praying for strength because I had received my mission call and I was just beginning to realize what I had signed up for and I was seriously terrified. So that miraculous response to my prayer strengthened me for my upcoming service as a missionary.

More recently another miracle happened, after I retired from the Air force I had a very hard time finding a job, after a few months I finally found a job but it was not the job I wanted, I was hired to be a stocker at the base gas station, after 20 years of honorable military service. To add insult on top of injury we could no longer afford our rent because of my drastic drop in income, we also home school and we did not want to traumatize our kids by dumping them into the public school system. We were facing literal homelessness when a member of our ward caught word of this (I tend to blab a lot much to my wife’s chagrin) and offered to let us stay in her 10x20 one room shack, and when I say shack I am not exaggerating. I also came across an old home built 8x20 ft concession trailer which I managed to convert into a living room of sorts. So here are the five of us crammed into this tiny space for who knows how long, we were surviving, we were far better off then we would be if were did not have the church and wound up under a bridge or something. Another miracle was my VA disability claim for sleep apnea but that is another story in of itself. Long story short one Saturday morning in late march I received a prompting to go to this model home in town and talk to them about a house. We had no money and I thought that this was the stupidest thing I had ever heard but I dragged my butt out of bed and headed over there. When I walked through it was as if they had been expecting me, the sales rep for the builder informed me that they had just had a customer fall through on a home because they could not get qualified on a loan, and I was the first person to walk through the door asking about a home. The house they had was perfect for us in every way imaginable, but there was one problem we simply could not afford this house. But we went ahead and scheduled an appointment for Monday afternoon at the bank to apply for financing, there was no way we were going to get approved. And yet the house was so perfect for us and we were so desperate at this point to get out of the little one room shack. Well it just so happened that literally 5 minutes before our appointment at the back I checked the mail on the way and after 9 months of waiting my disability claim arrived and I had been awarded 60% disability for my sleep apnea service connected condition and I had the necessary documentation of sufficient income and we were approved for the house instantly, the builder even let us preoccupy the house prior to closing and we moved out of the one room shack and into our brand new home on Wednesday. So just like that our lives were miraculously transformed, I do not yet know why we needed this particular home but I am sure that Heavenly Father has a reason for the blessings he gives to us.

The point I want to drive home here is that there are no blessings until after your trial of faith, and believe me no one is a bigger skeptic than I am. But I was faithful to the gospel, I always did my best even though it seemed to me at times that I was all alone, it is not until now, after the fact that I am coming to realize that he was there all along, I just couldn’t see his hand in my life at the time. So my advice is to stay true to the gospel and have faith that Heavenly father knows you very well and trust in him and in your self. We are often more capable then we give ourselves credit for, only when we give our all and that is not enough does he intervene and only if we are truly committed to serving him.

"Another common experience with light helps us learn an additional truth about the “line upon line, precept upon precept” pattern of revelation. Sometimes the sun rises on a morning that is cloudy or foggy. Because of the overcast conditions, perceiving the light is more difficult, and identifying the precise moment when the sun rises over the horizon is not possible. But on such a morning we nonetheless have sufficient light to recognize a new day and to conduct our affairs.

In many of the uncertainties and challenges we encounter in our lives, God requires us to do our best, to act and not be acted upon (see 2 Nephi 2:26), and to trust in Him. We may not see angels, hear heavenly voices, or receive overwhelming spiritual impressions. We frequently may press forward hoping and praying—but without absolute assurance—that we are acting in accordance with God’s will. But as we honor our covenants and keep the commandments, as we strive ever more consistently to do good and to become better, we can walk with the confidence that God will guide our steps. And we can speak with the assurance that God will inspire our utterances. This is in part the meaning of the scripture that declares, “Then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God” (D&C 121:45)." The Spirit of Revelation Elder Bednar

Edited July 13, 2011 by Universeman

[Dove]

Hello, Unixknight;

I don't know that I agree fully with the sentiment that God will only answer a prayer if it is said in "accordance to His will." In fact, I disagree....

I find that whether or not my prayers are answered depends a lot on how I approach Him in prayer. It depends on my sincerity...sincerity of intent. and how much I believe that He can and will answer. Humility is always a good thing as well....and trust in Him. Remember, Joseph Smith even had the answer to prayer he wanted and the Lord allowed the Book of Lehi to be lost in order for Joseph Smith to learn through this lesson.

I've had some prayers answered months later after I have prayed them. And while other serious questions have not been answered yet (like when I will die; I have diabetes and know my life is probably going to be quite shortened_) I always have a sense of comfort when I sincerely pray. Comfort and at times a peace.

One last thing; prayer is a highly individualized matter. Your problems in prayer probably aren't mine, and vice versa. I can only hope this help and I'll try to keep you in my prayers....:-)

[Seminarysnoozer]

Hello, Unixknight;

I don't know that I agree fully with the sentiment that God will only answer a prayer if it is said in "accordance to His will." In fact, I disagree....

)

How do you know something is not in "accordance to His will"?

[Blackmarch]

I would like to point out that

""Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them."

-Mark 11:24"

Does not give any time parameters... someone may well hbe destined to go thru life and not get them until the very end (ALA Job)

[applepansy]

unixknight,

I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but I'll go ahead and post it.

Our prayers are always answered. 1) yes, 2) no, 3) not yet. Sometimes the no and not yet feel like nothing is happening, when in fact there are people being prepared, circumstances being taken advantage of, etc to answer our prayers. Patience is very hard especially when its something very important to us.

Example: My mother was in a difficult situation financially. She prayed and prayed and felt she didn't get an answer. So in her stubborness (oh yes my mother is stubborn and she passed it on to me), she decided she would FAST until she received an answer. On day three or four she got her answer. She heard the words "Not yet! Other people have to make decisions first." Eventually my mother's prayers were answered with a yes. When she told us this experience she said it never occurred to her that other people's agency would be involved in answering her prayers.

2nd example: My son got involved with a woman who was a mess. He didn't know she was a mess or how bad it was until he had been with her for about 6 weeks. If he had paid attention to the commandments of God we wouldn't have been in the situation but he didn't and we are. Long story short, after he broke up with her she said she was pregnant. We didn't know if the baby was his until paternity testing was done. We later learned that she has just lost custody of an older child and therefore lost welfare money. She needed another child for the income. She still had custody of a little girl who was 5 when my grandson was born. For 17 months I prayed that my grandson would be able to live with us. I wanted that baby out of that bad situation and I wanted it to happen NOW. Months go by. I changed my prayers to "please just get him out. I don't care where just somewhere safe." Months go by...nothing. I changed my prayers to "Please get both of those children to somewhere they will be safe" Within days of changing my prayer to include both children and verbally accepting that I might not be the best place for the children, my son got a call from DCFS. Remarkable circumstances, but a long story...so the short version. He got custody of his son. The other child is with her father. My son and our grandson live with us and we are all raising him. The children are safe.

I know that two things had to happen. 1) Other people had to make their choices, and, 2) I needed to be humble enough to allow Heavenly Father to do the best for everyone. Just because its something I want doesn't make it the right thing for everyone. Only He can know what is truly "right."

This is why continued faith is so very important. We don't know, but Heavenly Father does. He will only do what is best for his children. And he will NOT ever infringe on agency.

A good talk on CD that might be helpful is Gene R Cook's "Receiving Answers to Our Prayers" I have listened to this talk several times and it always helps build my faith in prayer.

[Dove]

How do you know something is not in "accordance to His will"?

Seminary Snoozer,

I'm a little confused by your question. I think it's obvious there are so many things we could ask for that would not be in accordance with God's will.....I'm sure I've asked for a lot of things in my journey in the gospel that were not "in accordance with God's will." Honestly, this at times has left me vulnerable to the buffetings of the adversary. Other times I have been answered in other ways. I have learned to be as respectful, humble, honest and sincere as I can be when I approach Him in prayer.

What I'm trying to say is that, while we are fallible human beings approaching a divine, perfect Being, I believe He loves us enough to respect our sincere efforts in approaching Him. While our prayers may not be answered immediately, I believe they are all heard and one day we will come to an understanding of what we were asking about or for and His response to it.

So, what was your intent in asking this question to me? How do you know what is in accordance to His will or not? Why do you ask?

[bytebear]

Jesus prayed for the bitter cup to be taken away, but also said, "nevertheless, thy will be done" giving the ultimate authority to the Father.

[unixknight]

Thanks for all the info and perspective, brothers and sisters.

It's not that my faith was shaken by the idea of a prayer not answered. Some of you guys are reassuring me that prayer gets answered and I appreciate that but that's not the problem. My problem was the apparent contradiction between the messages from Scripture I described at the beginning.

I've gotten a lot of great perspective and wisdom from this thread, and I thank everyone.

I've been thinking a lot about the concept of prayer being a way to unlock the blessings Heavenly Father already has planned for us, and that makes sense, but what about a situation like the hypothetical I described earlier? If someone is suffering from stress attacks and asks for comfort... Not for the source of the stress to be taken away, per se, but just a comforting prayer to help cope. How does that fit in?

[applepansy]

Thanks for all the info and perspective, brothers and sisters.

It's not that my faith was shaken by the idea of a prayer not answered. Some of you guys are reassuring me that prayer gets answered and I appreciate that but that's not the problem. My problem was the apparent contradiction between the messages from Scripture I described at the beginning.

I've gotten a lot of great perspective and wisdom from this thread, and I thank everyone.

I've been thinking a lot about the concept of prayer being a way to unlock the blessings Heavenly Father already has planned for us, and that makes sense, but what about a situation like the hypothetical I described earlier? If someone is suffering from stress attacks and asks for comfort... Not for the source of the stress to be taken away, per se, but just a comforting prayer to help cope. How does that fit in?

Why doesn't it fit in? Often the source of the stress won't be taken away, but the Lord will increase our ability cope.

I can't count how many blessings I've recieved for health issues and stress that aggravates the pain. Never was I blessed that the cause of the health issues would resolve but that my ability to cope would increase. It hasn't mattered whether it was my prayer or, on the other end of the spectrum, a priesthood blessing, my ability to cope is always increased.

[unixknight]

Why doesn't it fit in? Often the source of the stress won't be taken away, but the Lord will increase our ability cope.

This is exactly my point... If the prayer is for that comfort (not to remove the source of the stress, as I said) how would it fit into the earlier discussion?

I know you said maybe going through that period of suffering can increase one's ability to cope, but what about when it has the opposite effect? What happens when someone is suffering from panic attacks? Those don't help one cope at all. If anything, they damage a person's coping mechanisms. That being the case, if that person kneels down in prayer and asks God to give them comfort to get through, then should they or should they not rightly expect a result?