How Do You Know?

[sgallan]

I am just the sort of person who views these things for what they are, and the experiences I derive with the them, without adding anything else to it. But many many people have your view and I have surely have no issues with that.

[boyando]

Whatever the case, I know that you're a great dad to your daughter, I can tell by the way you talk about her. Just don't get overly-confident that you know all the best ways to do everything. As a fellow parent, I know it's important to always re-assess.

I re-assess all of the time. It's something I've learned in dealing with countless kids over the years. But this kid already a sense of spirituality. The same kind I have. We both get excited everytime we see Half Dome and Yosemite pictures.... or when we are there. The amazing spectical of Rewood National Park, and it's the ocean, of the Tide Pools - with all of it's little critters, of long hikes through amazing old growth forests. Of our vistit to Crater Lake with twenty feet of snow when it's 85 out in June, and that amazing blue lake, the sheer power of rapids, the wonderment of the underwater world when we go Scuba Diving, these things and much more are how I feed my spirituality and how I teach her.

There is a sense of wonderment and awe in these things. We don't need to look to the supernatural to find it..... it is all around us. It is in what we see when we look into the cosmo's, it is what we see when look in a microscope. Or do an experiment. Or when I explain how the Himalayas were made. Nature and learning is full of richness and variety that we'll not even come close to discovering in a lifetime of discovery. These things are enough to feed the spirit, and keep us endlessly interested and busy without having to look outside of what is already there.

I hate to be the bearer of bad new's, but you are heading down God's path again. Oh I'm not asking you to stop. Maybe, just think about the designer, of all this world has to offer. Hey we agree, that it is a great place to live.- Allmosthumble

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

If someone's intent is to just be right at all costs I think they have missed the boat completely.

My intent is to love everyone no matter what they believe and I know that intent is just right. And ONE of the ways that I show my love to everyone is by teaching what I know to be right. And if people disagree and have a problem with me because I share what I know to be right, then that is their problem and I’ll still love them anyway, while I continue to try to teach them what is right. :)

Ray, I love ya but you are incorrigible,

Incorrigible = habitual, persistent, confirmed, dyed-in-the-wool, incurable, hopeless., and irredeemable

Since you used the word “but” I’m guessing you were using that word to say you think I have a flaw, and I’m wondering how you could think that about me after reading what I shared with you.

Do you think it is wrong for me to love everyone even when I can see they are wrong?

Or do you think it is wrong for me to teach what is right even when some people say I am wrong?

And regardless of what you say, even if it is wrong, I will continue to love you and others anyway.

:)

[Ray]

Whatever the case, I know that you're a great dad to your daughter, I can tell by the way you talk about her. Just don't get overly-confident that you know all the best ways to do everything. As a fellow parent, I know it's important to always re-assess.

I re-assess all of the time. It's something I've learned in dealing with countless kids over the years. But this kid already a sense of spirituality. The same kind I have. We both get excited everytime we see Half Dome and Yosemite pictures.... or when we are there. The amazing spectical of Rewood National Park, and it's the ocean, of the Tide Pools - with all of it's little critters, of long hikes through amazing old growth forests. Of our vistit to Crater Lake with twenty feet of snow when it's 85 out in June, and that amazing blue lake, the sheer power of rapids, the wonderment of the underwater world when we go Scuba Diving, these things and much more are how I feed my spirituality and how I teach her.

There is a sense of wonderment and awe in these things. We don't need to look to the supernatural to find it..... it is all around us. It is in what we see when we look into the cosmo's, it is what we see when look in a microscope. Or do an experiment. Or when I explain how the Himalayas were made. Nature and learning is full of richness and variety that we'll not even come close to discovering in a lifetime of discovery. These things are enough to feed the spirit, and keep us endlessly interested and busy without having to look outside of what is already there.

I hope you'll keep learning about science and nature until you know God must really exist.

And until then you'll continue to believe good things "just happen" without seeing what you can't see right now.

And btw, I know that your Dragon doesn't really exist and there is no way it can prove that it does, but there is a real way we can know God exists. Do you want me to tell you how to know???

[Ray]

Ray: Dr. T is saying that there is no agreed upon "method" of discovering truth, because each of you may claim different beliefs were revealed to you by God. So the question is, which "method" of arriving at truth is correct, or which belief is correct? Dr. T may believe as firmly as you do that he is right, and saying, "God told me so," isn't productive in that case.

I cannot see why we all can't agree we can all discover the truth from God.

If God tells the truth wouldn't we all become "one" by learning all truth from Him?

Is there any other way we can really learn the truth without learning what is true from God?

Saying "God told me so" should end discussion with other people, but we can continue to learn from God.

That's where discussion of doctrine/scriptures/opinions comes in, though the goal shouldn't be convincing others but explaining why we believe something if there are reasons in addition to God telling us so.

I have done that, ApostleKnight. Are you trying to imply that I haven't? Haven't you heard me explain what I know to be true, as I explained my own knowledge to other people?

But when someone wants to know how I came to learn what I know, I simply tell them I am learning from God, because when it comes right down to it, my faith comes from God, as He helps to assure me with His reasoning. Not from books alone, and not from words alone, as other people try to assure me of what they know.

What value do books have as they simply share thoughts that have come as men translated their own thoughts into writing?

And what value do words have when they simply share thoughts that have come as men spoke what they thought?

Is there any other way we can really learn the truth without gaining our own assurances from God?

Of what value is the Book of Mormon if you don't know it's from men who wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit?

And how else can you know it was inspired by God if God doesn't tell you that it was?

All of us can only share our own testimony with other people, and then leave it up to them to ask God.

There is no other way for others to know what God tells us unless God tells other people what He knows.

And btw, Scott, I only share what I know. If you really want to fight about it you can fight it out with God.

I can do nothing to make you believe that I know the truth. And I would never use violence to try.

[Dr T]

Ray,

I've tried multiple times but I must not be communicating with you appropriately. Your claim that God only speaks the truth makes sense. The part that you keep missing is that you may be in error about what you think God is saying. You are also missing the point that it might not be God telling you what you think is being communicated to you. You might just be saying, "God assured me of this" while you are actually only rattling off your worldview. You might be deceived into believing that it is from God while it is actually from Satan. Satan can give you that assurance too. I'm sure this is falling on deaf ears (or deaf eyes :) ) but I thought I'd try again. I know AK advised that I drop it with you but since you keep saying teh same thing, I thought I'd try again. I don't have any hope that it will be understood this time though...

Dr. T

[sgallan]

And btw, Scott, I only share what I know. If you really want to fight about it you can fight it out with God.

I can do nothing to make you believe that I know the truth. And I would never use violence to try.

You missed my point. Since I don't really care about the religion anyhow I think I'll just give up trying to make it. If you are content with the possibility you may be chasing off more people than you attract...... then you are.

[Ray]

If you are content with the possibility you may be chasing off more people than you attract...... then you are.

Scott,

What you are saying to me sounds, to me, like what I imagine other people said or thought about after hearing from prophets who also tried to tell them what they knew.

"You are making me feel bad!"

"The truth to us is obvious... people like you should go away!!!"

"And since you keep "sharing" your "truth" with all of us, I'll show you how bad we really feel."

But, Scott, I am not saying anything to chase anybody away, and I don't see why you would think that.

Haven't I often said that I hope we become "one", and that all of us should be learning from God?

And yes, I know I've shared what I know to be the truth, but I haven't asked anyone to believe me. I simply share what I know as I learn it from God, and I say that all of us should ask God.

Can you show me the harm in me saying that? How does that chase you or others away?

Is there anything in my message asking you to go away, as if I'm trying to chase you away from me?

From whom are you getting your ideas about me? What have I said to chase anyone away?

I really don't expect you to simply believe me. I wouldn't either if I were you. I only believe me because I know what I know is what God has really told me.

And if you are offended by the idea that I share what God has really told me, who would you rather hear me tell you I have learned from? Would you rather learn from scientists, or from God?

Or do you really want to hear what I think is the truth, without having any knowledge from God?

The way you feel about me really puzzles me.

[sgallan]

I know what I am saying, and others have hinted at, puzzles you. That is pretty much where the problem lies. You just don't get it.

[StrawberryFields]

I know what I am saying, and others have hinted at, puzzles you. That is pretty much where the problem lies. You just don't get it.

Yep. Ray is like no other LDS person I know.

[Ray]

I know what I am saying, and others have hinted at, puzzles you. That is pretty much where the problem lies. You just don't get it.

And what is it exactly that I really don't get?

You don't like hearing what I know, or you don't like hearing it's from God?

Or you don't like hearing we should ask God to assure us so we can know we know the truth?

Go ahead and spell it out for me. Don't you know what you know?

Has the cat got your tongue or something?

<div class='quotemain'>

I know what I am saying, and others have hinted at, puzzles you. That is pretty much where the problem lies. You just don't get it.

Yep. Ray is like no other LDS person I know.

I don't get out much and I know others like me. Maybe you should know others like me? :)

[Maureen]

And what is it exactly that I really don't get?

Ray, you "don't get" what other people are sharing with you. And that seems to be because you would rather talk than listen.

What's the point of always talking about the same thing, when after a while everyone gets fed up with reading the same thing with no substance. You're talking in circles Ray, and its just easier to ignore than ask for clarification, because you don't seem to know how to get past the basics of "God tells me the truth". Good for you Ray, but how does what God tells you help others, if they refuse to listen to your non-information about what he tells you or how he tells you.

You become a "clanging cymbal" Ray.

M.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

And what is it exactly that I really don't get?

Ray, you "don't get" what other people are sharing with you.

Yes I do. Or at least I get some of it. I just don't get this point you are trying to make now.

What do I do to chase others away?

Can't you answer that question?

You seem to know the answer.

But I'm not getting it because you're not explaining it.

And that seems to be because you would rather talk than listen.

I do hear you talking, but I don't hear you saying anything about this point I am asking you about.

Why don't you love me? What "bad" thing am I doing? I'm sharing what I have learned from God.

What's the point of always talking about the same thing, when after a while everyone gets fed up with reading the same thing with no substance.

What have I said that has no substance? If that's true just back that point up.

If you don't understand what I've been trying to tell you, I'll be happy to try to explain it again.

You're talking in circles Ray, and its just easier to ignore than ask for clarification, because you don't seem to know how to get past the basics of "God tells me the truth".

Okay, Maureen. If you didn't understand me, you only had to let me know that.

I can tell you what I know, and I can explain what I know, but to know I speak the truth, ask God.

Good for you Ray, but how does what God tells you help others if they refuse to listen to your non-information about what he tells you or how he tells you.

If God has told me, God can also tell others. Wouldn't it help for other people to know that?

I can't make others believe me, and I can't make them hear me, but I can share what and how I know.

And how does me saying I and others can learn from God equate to some non-information???

Please try to explain that one to me.

The information I'm presenting is that we can learn from God. If you don't know, that is information.

You've become a "clanging cymbal" Ray.

Even that is saying something. And I hope you are getting my message. :)

[prisonchaplain]

Ray, I think some readers/posters sense that you are here more to teach than to learn, and that you desire to share your truths, but not necessarily to learn from others. Additionally, what you may see as innocent efforts on your part to remind others to seek God, others may take as condescension--and the intimation that they are not currently doing so.

I'm not sure that there is any quick or easy way for you to dispel these concerns on the part of some, but if you'll acknowledge that they are out there, rather than defending your approach and intentions, then perhaps you'll find the pathway to posts that come across more as honey than vinegar.

[Ray]

Ray, I think some readers/posters sense that you are here more to teach than to learn, and that you desire to share your truths, but not necessarily to learn from others.

When others know some truths that I have not learned, I am happy to learn what they know, but I will accept what they know only after learning it is the truth... and for that I will only ask God.

Are you people expecting me to believe what you say simply because you are saying it's the truth???

What if I've learned some things you don't know?

How are you going to know that I know what is really the truth???

Is this a one way street? Or can't you get some ideas from me too?

Additionally, what you may see as innocent efforts on your part to remind others to seek God, others may take as condescension--and the intimation that they are not currently doing so.

I can't help how other people choose to take what I say, and I've tried to tell you all I'm NOT offensive. But you can take that, or you can leave that. I have shared what I know is the truth.

And btw, if everyone agrees with me, why can't you all say with me now...

"I agree!!!"

"We can only know the truth by receiving God's assurance!!!"

"So what have you learned by receiving God's assurance, Ray, or PC, or AK?"

...with the understanding that we'll all be asking God to know if what we are hearing is true, with nobody getting offended if we choose not to believe what we hear because nobody is really expecting anyone else to believe what others are saying without getting an assurance from God... which everyone knows is THE ONLY WAY to really know the truth???

Huh? What doesn't that happen? What don't I hear those thoughts from everyone?

Why are some people picking on me as if I am saying something to them which is strange???

OH, WOW!!!

Nevermind. I know now. They simply haven't asked to learn from God yet, which is the only way they will know that they really know how to know the truth.

Thank you, God. And thank you all. I know the truth about this now.

And I know you can know by receiving an assurance from God. :)

[prisonchaplain]

Are you people expecting me to believe what you say simply because you are saying it's the truth???

Nobody is suggesting that you believe anything without checking it out (with God, with other sources, etc.) first. Why would you think that?

On the other hand, if everytime I say, "It's sunny today," you respond with, "I can't trust you--I'll have to seek God's assurance, first," then, overtime, I might become a bit frustrated.l

What if I've learned some things you don't know? How are you going to know that I know what is really the truth???

Everyone verifies assertions, and it is generally unnecessary--and often communicates distrust--when one finds it necessary to proclaim "I'll have to check on that!"

I can't help how other people choose to take what I say,

Yes you can. When you learn that people are misinterpreting you, you can take the effort to learn different ways of communicating what you mean--ways that will be more readily understood.

Huh? What doesn't that happen? What don't I hear those words?

Because most people seek God's direction, confirmation, etc. internally, and only proclaim what they've discerned when necessary.

Why are people picking on me as if I am saying something to them which is strange? OH, WOW!!!

See my post again, Ray. Perhaps they are misinterpreting you--but I've explained what I believe they are seeing. You can choose to evaluate, and perhaps reconstruct your ideas in ways that are going to be more readily understood, or you can continue to be misunderstood.

Nevermind. I know now. They simply haven't asked to learn from God yet, which is the only way they will know that they really know how to know the truth.

You've not established that we're not hearing from God--only perhaps that we are not correctly discerning what you are trying to say. If the receiver continues to misreceive, it could be that the sender needs to reevaluate.

[Dr T]

Hey PC,

When did you take a communications class? :) (well said)

[prisonchaplain]

Hey PC,

When did you take a communications class? :) (well said)

I graduated from Whitworth College in 1987 with a B.A. in Elementary Education.

[Ray]

If the receiver continues to misreceive, it could be that the sender needs to reevaluate.

Heh, reevaluate what?

How important I believe it is to share HOW we can all know the truth?

Is there another message you feel is more important to others?

How is anyone going to know the truth about anything without knowing that???

And btw, I've lost count of how many times I have said what I have said in other words, but if you need me to say it again, just let me know. :)

Some people may want more meaty things but they still need to have some good pure milk. Going too fast or talking too much can plug up their system or make them feel sick. And more truths are worth too much to throw to the wolves.

[Maureen]

<div class='quotemain'>

If the receiver continues to misreceive, it could be that the sender needs to reevaluate.

Heh, reevaluate what?

How you communicate!

How important I believe it is to share HOW we can all know the truth?

Sometimes its important to know when to stop sharing and to start listening - not agreeing Ray, but listening.

And btw, I've lost count of how many times I have said what I have said in other words, but if you need me to say it again, just let me know. :)

No thanks, we've heard too many times that we have also lost count.

M.

[prisonchaplain]

Heh, reevaluate what?

Reevaluate HOW you are communicating--the words you use, the tone you use, the response you get. I can guarantee you that many posters say the same general things you say, but somehow fail to garner the consternation that you do.

How important I believe it is to share HOW we can all know the truth?

No. That is not what gets people consternated, Ray. Go back to my OP about five or six back. It's not the content of your advice, but the tone and insinuations that are causing concern.

Is there another message you feel is more important to others?

Why are you not understanding that people are NOT arguing with your theology? It's the tone and secondary messages that got 'em riled up.

Some people may want more meaty things but they still need to have some good pure milk. Going too fast or talking too much can plug up their system or make them feel sick. And the truth is worth too much to throw to the wolves.

Here's the problem, right here--this paragraph. Reread it Ray, from the perspective of a skeptic, or from someone that doesn't know you well. Here is what they will understand you to say:

Some people want meaty (intelligent) things, but they (that would be you, ignorant and immature reader) need to have some really childish, simplistic lessons. I'm too smart for you so I have to talk baby talk, so you can keep up. Ah, never mind--what I have to say is so precious, that you, being of wicked heart, don't deserve it.

Is that what you meant to say, Ray? Cause that's how it comes across. Then, when people respond with frustration, anger, or disgust, you accuse them of being unwilling to seek and hear from God, in the same way that you, saint that you are, did.

Do you get it yet, Ray? Share the glory with some humility, and your vinegar will become as honey.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

If the receiver continues to misreceive, it could be that the sender needs to reevaluate.

Heh, reevaluate what?

How you communicate!

Okay. I can hear you saying there is something wrong with how I communicate with others, but nobody is saying what is wrong with how I communicate, so who is it that really has the problem?

Sheesh.

Sometimes its important to know when to stop sharing and to start listening - not agreeing Ray, but listening.

I can read what you have written, but you did not say anything, other than the idea that there is something wrong with how I communicate and that I should listen to other people when they say that I should listen to what they say.

Say something!!!

No thanks, we've heard too many times that we have also lost count.

So I can't ask others to say what they think, even when they won't tell me what they have in mind, so I'll guess what you and others want is for me to go away.

Did I get it??? Are you and others still NOT going to tell me? This is the last time I will try to communicate my thoughts with my words.

Some people want meaty (intelligent) things, but they (that would be you, ignorant and immature reader) need to have some really childish, simplistic lessons. I'm too smart for you so I have to talk baby talk, so you can keep up. Ah, never mind--what I have to say is so precious, that you, being of wicked heart, don't deserve it.

Is that what you meant to say, Ray? Cause that's how it comes across. Then, when people respond with frustration, anger, or disgust, you accuse them of being unwilling to seek and hear from God, in the same way that you, saint that you are, did.

Do you get it yet, Ray? Share the glory with some humility, and your vinegar will become as honey.

I will let you answer that question after reading my final comment.

Tell me the truths in the Book of Mormon and in the Church.

And if you don't know any yet how do you suppose you will ever find out???

Hint: Not from me or other LDS, who you might think I think are the smart "ones", but from God, and only God, who knows everything!!!

And if you are still here talking to us then please tell me why you are still here.

I will say nothing more important than Who is The Teacher

[prisonchaplain]

Okay. I can hear you saying there is something wrong with how I communicate with others, but nobody is saying what is wrong with how I communicate, so who is it that really has the problem? Sheesh.

Now we're at least thinking about the same thing. No, you don't have to think of wrong as "having a problem," or as being bad, evil, or malicious. Rather, I'm suggesting that you are communicating far more than you probably intend to in terms of tone and insinuation.

Instead of thinking, "What am I doing wrong?" You might think, "How can I say what I want to more effectively?"

And if you are still here talking to us then please tell me why you are still here. I will say nothing more important than Who is The Teacher

God speaks to us directly, through his Scriptures, and through his servants. If you count yourself a servant of the Lord, then communicating what you know of him in an effective and accurate manner would certainly be one of the worthy chores you might perform.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

There are none as blind as those who will not see.

Except for someone with their eyes poked out, but I think Ray's posting with both eyes in place.

Ray, one sign of a mature communicator, an effective one, is that they realize it's not what they say that's important, but what others hear. When they say something that produces confusion or anger in their listeners, they adapt their delivery for no reason other than to improve understanding.

Changing how you post doesn't mean your old posts were stupid or wrong or anything else. It means you're mature and skillful and fluid in how you express your ideas with an eye to furthering mutual understanding.

Try turning this:

"Only God can reveal truth and He's told me that the LDS Church is the correct Church and if you ask God He can tell you too."

into:

"I believe the LDS Church is the correct Church. I asked God and feel that He told me it's correct. It's brought me alot of joy knowing this, and I hope others can receive that joy too by gaining their own witness."

Subtle, but it makes all the difference.

[sgallan]

"How can I say what I want to more effectively?"

Ray - This is exactly what I am trying to say. The Chaplain just said it more succient, and better, than I did.

Ray, one sign of a mature communicator, an effective one, is that they realize it's not what they say that's important, but what others hear. When they say something that produces confusion or anger in their listeners, they adapt their delivery for no reason other than to improve understanding.

Indeed. Kudo's to this gem as well. :)