church is pointless if no one cares

[bcguy]

that means no one calls, no one emails no one visits concerning your mental or financial health. That is just my general concenus.

There is such a huge disconnect with the church and of course, area companies. While I do work for my self, the income is a stipend and should be living in a box, other then being subsidized by my high income "and some time crazy" wife. BC employers can in my opinion shove it" if they think that they are god in terms "if you do not have Canadian training, you are not hirable" mentality.

If a bishop shows concern for a member, ask him..not his nutty wife! My wife hates embarrassment and will do anything, including lying to make it sound like its nothing.

This is my $%& for the day. I just feel like leaving and probebly will get no emails as to why.

[Justice]

Yes. We must always remember that the Church is the people. The building is a chapel where the Church meets. The people are the reason it exists.

I agree with you.

[Dravin]

The first thing that comes to mind when people talk about the obligation to reach out to others in the church is that doesn't it go both ways? I'm not saying bcguy does it, but I've encountered more than one person who will talk about the obligation of others to reach out in fellowship to them but seem to forget they have the selfsame obligation to reach out as well.

Now a Mexican stand off of "I ain't reaching out until someone else does" isn't justified, that's not what I'm saying. But it's easy when feeling ignored to forget the obligation for fellowship rests on all of us, not on "them".

[beefche]

Yep, obtaining the saving ordinances of the Gospel and keeping covenants is pointless.

[prisonchaplain]

Dravin said it well, but I'll say it a different way: If "no one" at church cares, then I am certainly at least partly to blame.

[Suzie]

What about if the person is really reaching out to others, helping, giving service, etc and yet in their time of need there is no help, no phone call, no nothing? Words are easy, actions seem to be hard. Just a few days ago, a father called me to explain his situation. He is permanently disabled, his wife is out of work. They have no food, no money to pay rent, and they are truly in need. The Bishop told them in several occasions that he cannot help them, the Stake President told them to go back to the Bishop and try to solve the problem...this family was going back and forth. I was very upset. This is an active family who has been giving service for YEARS. I took some of my own money and gave it to them to get some food.

The Church IS the people and we don't need a calling to help when you see someone in need,. What is sad is that for some, unless the situation is personal the concerns and situations of others doesn't seem to be serious or urgent enough to do something quickly and for others, only a kick in their behind will make them step in and do something.

[beefche]

The bishops have a heavy responsibility to make sure the sacred fast funds are used appropriately. The church has guidelines on how much and how long a family can receive assistance. You are only getting one side of the story from this husband. Please don't assume this bishop is heartless or uncaring because he is not providing church funds to help this family. The fact that the bishop has on "several occasions" said no and the Stake President isn't intervening is very telling.

What you choose to do with your money is your right and business.

[Suzie]

The bishops have a heavy responsibility to make sure the sacred fast funds are used appropriately. The church has guidelines on how much and how long a family can receive assistance. You are only getting one side of the story from this husband. Please don't assume this bishop is heartless or uncaring because he is not providing church funds to help this family. The fact that the bishop has on "several occasions" said no and the Stake President isn't intervening is very telling.

What you choose to do with your money is your right and business.

Just a couple of things:

1. Maybe I was not clear enough but my second paragraph was not mean towards the Bishop or Stake President (although reading it again, it sounds like it).

2. You are actually assuming I haven't spoken to the Bishop and the Stake President. I did actually, I know both of them very well and I know why the funds are not being released. I don't wish to go into the details about the situation but let's not also assume that every leader would react with the same urgency, let's also not assume that every leader would know the correct procedure, or that they won't be caught in the bureaucracy of it all...and most of all, let's not assume that this family may be at fault at something and that's why they're not getting help. Let's be careful with that.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Suzie

[beefche]

Just a couple of things:

1. Maybe I was not clear enough but my second paragraph was not mean towards the Bishop or Stake President (although reading it again, it sounds like it).

2. You are actually assuming I haven't spoken to the Bishop and the Stake President. I did actually, I know both of them very well and I know why the funds are not being released. I don't wish to go into the details about the situation but let's not also assume that every leader would react with the same urgency, let's also not assume that every leader would know the correct procedure, or that they won't be caught in the bureaucracy of it all...and most of all, let's not assume that this family may be at fault at something and that's why they're not getting help. Let's be careful with that.

Absolutely. But, care should also be taken to not imply that bishops or stake presidents are being heartless or not caring for their flock when they refuse to offer sacred church funds to assist someone.

[Suzie]

I believe there are certain situations when I know they're not able to help or they cannot (for whatever reason). Having said that, they're humans just like us. I don't see them any different in that aspect. Good people commit mistakes all the time, that's why we are here.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I think the member-Church relationship is a partnership. Members should give to the community/church, but in times of need, I believe the Church has an onus to help the member -- when there is truly a need. There have been times when leaders I have known have not helped people in need -- good, faithful people who have given the equivalent of a mortgage over their lifetime. I have seen it first hand and have known the details intimately.

I honestly believe the Church should be generous with its resources, perhaps erring on the side of generosity when it's not clear cut which way the judgment should fall. As they say in baseball -- the tie goes to the runner. And in my view, the member is the runner.

[Avrham]

I think the member-Church relationship is a partnership. Members should give to the community/church, but in times of need, I believe the Church has an onus to help the member -- when there is truly a need. There have been times when leaders I have known have not helped people in need -- good, faithful people who have given the equivalent of a mortgage over their lifetime. I have seen it first hand and have known the details intimately.

I honestly believe the Church should be generous with its resources, perhaps erring on the side of generosity when it's not clear cut which way the judgment should fall. As they say in baseball -- the tie goes to the runner. And in my view, the member is the runner.

this reminds me of a comment someone once said "I pay my tith so that the Church can pay my bils" :)

[MarginOfError]

The bishops have a heavy responsibility to make sure the sacred fast funds are used appropriately. The church has guidelines on how much and how long a family can receive assistance.

Bishops and stake presidents have a lot more flexibility with how to use fast offering funds than you might think. I forget what the current limit is, but I seem to recall that they can authorize somewhere around $15,000 in medical expenses before requiring approval from the area presidency. It might even be more now.

And there are no formal restrictions on how much assistance may be received or how long assistance may be given. Certainly, if a great deal of aid is given or aid is given over an extended period of time, the needs of the family should be evaluated with an open mindset of deciding what can reasonably be done to help them develop self-sufficiency, but a family should never be denied assistance simply because they have "reached the allowable limit."

[Traveler]

The definition of hypocrisy is the attitude of holding others to a different standard than self.

The Traveler

[beefche]

The definition of hypocrisy is the attitude of holding others to a different standard than self.

The Traveler

Who is being a hypocrit?

[Guest gopecon]

While bishops can certainly make mistakes, they are almost universally trying to do the best they can with limited resources. When possible, bishops are encouraged to limit help to the amount being collected each month. I've never seen a bishop cut someone off without a lot of prayer and heartache. That being the case, there are supposed to be conditions on those who receive help. When possible they are to perform work of some sort. The value of the work does not necessarily need to conform to the help received, but it should be sufficient to allow the recipient to feel like they are not freeloading (for lack of a better term). Bishops will often encourage improved church activity for those who are not active. Those who will not do these things are often the ones who are cut off or denied help.

[Suzie]

Bishops will often encourage improved church activity for those who are not active. Those who will not do these things are often the ones who are cut off or denied help.

Just curious since I don't have the Handbook. Is Church activity a requirement for someone to get financial help from the Church?

[MarginOfError]

Just curious since I don't have the Handbook. Is Church activity a requirement for someone to get financial help from the Church?

No, activity is not a requirement, and assistance should not be withheld based on activity. But yes, the bishops do encourage members to improve their spiritual living.

[Guest gopecon]

Activity is not a requirement from the handbook, but it can be one used by a bishop. The goal of the welfare system is to help people temporally and spiritually. Bishops are encouraged to seek the Lord's guidance as to how people will best be helped. Facilitating dependancy with no effort toward improving one's situation or spirituality is not why the welfare system exists. With short term assistance I think activity is less likely to be used than with longer term situations. I think the general thought is that sacred, limited resources should not be used for people who are showing no intention of being part of the church save for partaking of the help that is available.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

And getting back to bcguy....:)

that means no one calls, no one emails no one visits concerning your mental or financial health. That is just my general concenus.

There is such a huge disconnect with the church and of course, area companies. While I do work for my self, the income is a stipend and should be living in a box, other then being subsidized by my high income "and some time crazy" wife. BC employers can in my opinion shove it" if they think that they are god in terms "if you do not have Canadian training, you are not hirable" mentality.

If a bishop shows concern for a member, ask him..not his nutty wife! My wife hates embarrassment and will do anything, including lying to make it sound like its nothing.

This is my $%& for the day. I just feel like leaving and probebly will get no emails as to why.

Bcguy, some of your post is confusing to me, but something is clear...you are hurting and you feel alone.

I am so sorry for that. It is a terrible feeling to feel alone and abandoned by your ward family. I am sorry that whatever financial issues you are having are compounded by this feeling of being alone.

I feel terrible aloneness sometimes...one thing that helps a little...is thinking of how the Apostles kept falling asleep when the Savior was in Gethsemane. In his hour of deepest need, his friends could not watch with him for an hour.

I don't know why the Apostles fell asleep, but the important thing to me about this story is that it tells me when I feel so very alone, that the Savior knows. He understands. I can turn to him for help when no one else seems to understand.

Look to the Savior, to Heavenly Father...and I will pray that they can get some of your ward to help you as well.

LP

[mightynancy]

The definition of hypocrisy is the attitude of holding others to a different standard than self.

One size does not fit all. I think the definition of compassion is understanding that we each have our gifts and weaknesses, and taking that into account when "holding others to standards."

bcguy, I'm sorry things are so hard for you now. What LiterateParakeet said is true - even when those near to you don't get it, the Savior does.

I often feel alone in church, not because nobody is intervening on my behalf, but because my questions are rebuffed; I'm even told I shouldn't think about things so much. We've had a couple of sacrament meetings in the last year that were really fulfilling for me because they were so human and it was clear that we were a community of worshippers. It's a pity it's so rare, but it happens. I pray that fulfillment comes your way, in whatever form is most meaningful for you.

[Vort]

I'm even told I shouldn't think about things so much.

What a thoughtless comment!

[mightynancy]

What a thoughtless comment!

If there were a laugh, button, I'd click it.

[Guest]

Yeah, why do some threads have laugh buttons, and others don't?

[Vort]

Yeah, why do some threads have laugh buttons, and others don't?

Threads I post on don't have a laugh button. I'm rather sensitive about being laughed at.