Does God Love Everyone?

[Snow]

There's a thread where we are discussing whether God answers prayers and how, in the face of evil and suffering, can there be a powerful God who is loving. That thread deals with one posters specific case so I'd like to separate out this issue from that specific case.

Recently my there was a priesthood lesson about the power of prayer and the well-intentioned teacher offered a recent example where he has lost his briefcase with important things it. Through prayer the contents came back into his possession.

Of course I asked why would God bless him with his iPad when he refuses to intervene to save children who are tortures, abused and killed... and he, of course, couldn't say, so he gave his testimony instead.

Every year over 3 1/2 million die of water pollution. A handful will die from it during the time it takes to read this post 15 million die of starvation, hundreds of them just while you read this post. 500,000,000 live in grinding. abject poverty. Crime, murder, rape, torture, genocide are rampart. The pain and suffering is incalculable.

On the other hand, most all of us are extremely well off - at least by comparison. We have housing, food, internet access, many have loving families, fulfilling careers, well-fed intellectual lives, favorite sports teams, diet coke.

We thank God for our blessings. Yet, if God is responsible for the food we thank Him for, He must also be responsible for the food that others don't have.

What's the difference between us and Somalians?

... the luck of where you happen to be born.

God is powerful

God is benevolent

Suffering exists

How can all three things be true.

[Lucidity]

the way i look at it, god has given man free will, and people in the world are suffering because of the actions and choices of man, not god. for instance the amount of money we spend on wars and destruction, could easily feed and shelter the entire world many times over. But because of greed and power it seems like that will never happen. we cant blame god for the suffering, when it is man that makes the decisions that lead to suffering.

[Vort]

God is powerful

God is benevolent

Suffering exists

How can all three things be true.

You wrongly assume that the first and second points ought somehow to preclude the third. Minus this assumption, there is nothing mutually exclusive about the list you provide.

Most theists have an incorrect model of God. Well, all theists do, but some have a model more incorrect than others. Most believe in what I call "Jeannie God", where God is imagined as a being not too different from "I Dream of Jeannie", where he folds his arms and blinks his eyes and things pop into and out of existence. This is utter nonsense, and is the root for a great deal of misunderstanding about the nature of God and his works.

We don't believe in a micromanager God, hovering over his creation and making sure everything works like it's supposed to. Neither do we believe in a remote God, who winds up the clock and then lets it run down. We believe in a Father who is involved in our lives as we allow and invite him to be. We believe in a God who helps change us into someone better. But somehow, he does not remove all our pain or all the evils from our lives. We still see appalling inequalities and suffering, all the vicissitudes of mortality. God does not promise to remove them; rather, he promises to consecrate them for our good.

So how does allowing children to live lives of pain and deprivation, suffer untold and unspeakable torture and agonies, and grow up twisted by the horrors they experience fit into this model? I don't know. But it does seem that God starts small and improves people by generations, letting his circle of influence grow.

We think of the individuals: the children raped and killed in countless wars in centuries past, the men and women living in poverty and ignorance throughout history, the people born and raised in savage hunter-gatherer conditions, living lives of untold violence and disease. Where is the justice in their lives compared with ours? Again, I don't know. But there is a communal aspect to our existence and God's work. God makes promises to us that are realized only in our children's children. Somehow or other, that still counts.

This is strange to us because it is not how we look at things. For this reason, I suppose, we must first come to know God, believe in him, and seek for his influence in our lives, and then have faith enough to conform our lives to his will. Then these larger questions and themes that we don't even understand yet will work out and be revealed.

As of now, that's my best take on it.

[Dravin]

My answer hasn't changed since: http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/27648-evil-really-gods-fault.html

I don't think I've already heard it (I admit I haven't reread the link above completely, I only scanned it to confirm it is the one where I gave my answer on the subject*), but what is your answer to your own question?

*Maybe I'm reading you incorrectly, but at it's heart your question is asking about the problem of evil.

[beefche]

Snow, what are your thoughts on those questions? What should we be praying for? Are prayers about our own family members (assuming who have plenty to eat, are not suffering horrible diseases and have a home to live in) wrong?

[applepansy]

All three can be true because of one very important principle: Agency

[bytor2112]

Great questions....I think the best answer might be that death and the feeling of abandonment by God comes to all mankind upon death. The Savior himself exclaimed in agony, Father, why have thous forsaken me.....

[applepansy]

You wrongly assume that the first and second points ought somehow to preclude the third. Minus this assumption, there is nothing mutually exclusive about the list you provide.

Most theists have an incorrect model of God. Well, all theists do, but some have a model more incorrect than others. Most believe in what I call "Jeannie God", where God is imagined as a being not too different from "I Dream of Jeannie", where he folds his arms and blinks his eyes and things pop into and out of existence. This is utter nonsense, and is the root for a great deal of misunderstanding about the nature of God and his works.

We don't believe in a micromanager God, hovering over his creation and making sure everything works like it's supposed to. Neither do we believe in a remote God, who winds up the clock and then lets it run down. We believe in a Father who is involved in our lives as we allow and invite him to be. We believe in a God who helps change us into someone better. But somehow, he does not remove all our pain or all the evils from our lives. We still see appalling inequalities and suffering, all the vicissitudes of mortality. God does not promise to remove them; rather, he promises to consecrate them for our good.

So how does allowing children to live lives of pain and deprivation, suffer untold and unspeakable torture and agonies, and grow up twisted by the horrors they experience fit into this model? I don't know. But it does seem that God starts small and improves people by generations, letting his circle of influence grow.

We think of the individuals: the children raped and killed in countless wars in centuries past, the men and women living in poverty and ignorance throughout history, the people born and raised in savage hunter-gatherer conditions, living lives of untold violence and disease. Where is the justice in their lives compared with ours? Again, I don't know. But there is a communal aspect to our existence and God's work. God makes promises to us that are realized only in our children's children. Somehow or other, that still counts.

This is strange to us because it is not how we look at things. For this reason, I suppose, we must first come to know God, believe in him, and seek for his influence in our lives, and then have faith enough to conform our lives to his will. Then these larger questions and themes that we don't even understand yet will work out and be revealed.

As of now, that's my best take on it.

Vort, great post.

Have you read "Seven Tipping Points that Saved the World"? I think it applies to this thread because the author discusses "miralces" in history that changed the direction of the world which of course improved circumstances for people.

Edited August 25, 2011 by applepansy
corrected title of book

[Guest gopecon]

I think that those who have mentioned agency are on the right track with this question. God values agency so much that he lost 1/3 of the hosts of heaven over it. With agency in this life our choices will not only affect ourselves for good or ill, they will also affect others. Agency that permited mistakes affecting only the one making the mistake would be a very limited freedom.

Why some are born into prosperity in the Western world while others suffer in poverty in Africa or Southern Asia is a question that is harder to answer. It seems clear that as long as the people there are having sex, spirits do need to be sent there to inhabit those bodies. How that lottery is "won" is one of those questions that we will have to wait to have answered until after this life.

[JudoMinja]

Suffering and inequality are part of God's plan:

For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility. (2 Nephi 2:11)

Our time here is a time of learning and growth. We cannot learn to appreciate and love the good things in our lives without experiencing the bad as well. Mortality is a time of pain, sorrow, and death- but through these experiences we come to understand the difference between good and bad, righteousness and unrighteousness, kindness and mistreatment, etc. The opposition and the struggle are necessary, even if it appears undesireable. It appears heartless and cruel, but it is out of love and patience that we are allowed to suffer through our experiences in order to learn and draw closer to God- to be humbled and seek out the help of the Savior.

Just take a moment to think about any number of good books. What makes it good? The opposition. The struggle. We enjoy seeing characters overcome great odds. We enjoy seeing them suffer and work through something hard and trying and eventually conquering it. Without "evil" to be challenged, there is no story. So it is with our lives and our personal growth. We are made stronger through our struggles, and even if there are those who end up crushed by the overbearing weight of their anguish, all will be set aright.

And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.

(D&C 122:7)

There are some terrible terrible things in the world. Few of us really understand the horrors that many others go through every day. Our hard times are nothing compared to the pains others may suffer on a daily basis. But no matter how bad someone has it, "these things shall give [them] experience, and shall be for [their] good".

God is a merciful God, but mercy does not mean He will not permit the pain. To remove the pains we suffer completely would in fact be UNmerciful, as it would remove our opportunities for growth and learning. We could not progress or better come to understand all that God is without suffering. We could not grow without trials and opposition to work against us. The world is like a refiners fire. It shapes us and molds us into better people, if we will let it. We will all suffer and experience hardships. No one is completely exempt from this. Some hardships may seem invisible to our eyes as many live a "privilaged" life, but these people are still being refined through their experiences. The mercy comes in when we are given the ability to OVERCOME our suffering, not escape it. The atonement is available not to make it so that our suffering never happened, but to relieve the pains and through them make us complete and whole.

Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the Lord hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.

But Zion said, The Lord hath aforsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.

Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.

Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

(Isaiah 49:13-16)

There is compassion BECAUSE of the pain and suffering. When I looked up the above scripture, there were several references connected to the words "mercy" and "afflicted" in the first verse addressing the nature of compassion and suffering. The Lord feels compassionate toward those who have suffered all manner of afflictions, and he turns his compassion toward those who ARE afflicted while He "makes low" those who are "haughty" or "built up".

God knew we would suffer in coming to this earth. WE knew we would suffer. The earth itself is designed with an uneven distribution of "wealth" and fertility. There are some places with abundant water and other places with next to none. Some places with great growth and others laid barren. Those who are born and raised under "rich" and "wealthy" circumstances are expected to be generous and give to those who have little, but due to their own frailties of will and mind as well as their agency (with which God will not interfere) these "rich" may become selfish and prideful. Instead of equally dispersing the wealth among all, the distribution remains uneven as the rich become more rich and the poor become more poor.

It is our own choices that will change this. As individuals, we do not have the power to change the whole world and relieve the suffering of all. Those of us who live in conditions of "wealth" may not be able to spread and share it with everyone who suffers, but we can seek out and choose to help those within our ability to help. In fact, if you have made your temple covenants part of your promise is to live the "law of consecration" RIGHT NOW to the best of your ability. This is the Lord's requirement of us to share His compassion with others, to relieve the suffering of others and distribute the wealth we have been given by virtue of our "lucky" birth location to those who are not so lucky.

For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation.

(D&C 82:3)

We can all make the world a little brighter by meeting these expectations to the best of our abilities. This is what the Lord has called us to do. Those who are born to "privilage" are not necessarily loved MORE by the Lord. If we do not live up to the requirements brought on by our wealth and privilages, we will ultimately end up being brought down by His wrath. These privilages are not evidence of His love but evidence of His expectations. We are blessed so that we may bless others, and if we choose not to follow through with this promise those we could have helped will continue to suffer, and the Lord will shower His compassion upon them in the end.

[prophetofdoom]

What if we, as pre-mortal spirits, exercised our free agency and chose to come to a world that we knew involved suffering, pain, despair, etc... so that we could learn greater truths and lessons through the suffering? Then, I would say that God is indeed powerful, benevolent, and suffering exists.

[NeuroTypical]

As I tried to explain to my 7 yr old last night, who was in the midst of a teary explosion of melodramatic sadness and hurt because I wouldn't let her go to the sleepover, I love her, and she'll live.

Or to put it another way, the last time I took her to get shots, and she had to endure the trauma of the needle, I still love her, and she'll live.

Or again, when she doesn't want to go to that place and do that thing, because there's a mean kid - I'll occasionally make her go there and do that anyway. Even though she will encounter difficulty with the mean kid, I still love her, and she'll live.

As we grow up, our list of things that bring us to teary explosions of melodramatic sadness gets much deeper - at least in our own minds. Yes, rape and torture and starvation and painful death are horrible things - but no really - we'll live. The definition of "we will live" changes and takes on an eternal aspect.

We don't fully get it, but:

And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.

[Guest mysticmorini]

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

-Romans 9:13

So God doesn't love at least one person.

[Dravin]

So God doesn't love at least one person.

So in-relation to the OP are you suggesting that God doesn't love (or that he hates) Somalians and thus why their prayers for food (and the like) are not answered? If not (and I suspect you were answering the thread title rather than making such a suggestion), the OP's question remains. Why is Johnny American's prayers for food (or X) answered why Abshir Somali's are not?*

*I am aware that several people have provided their own answers to the question, I'm not asking personally, I'm just pointing out unless it is being suggested that the reason is that God hates Somali's the scripture in question doesn't answer the question.

[RescueMom]

Angency.

We often think that since we have been 'chosen' with the blessings of the Gospel and food and shelter that God loves us. Therefore those who are not 'chosen' who live in deplorable conditions, who suffer wars, rapes, and starvation are not loved of God.

However, if we simply look at what we 'chosen' have been taught, perhaps we can see things differently.

We have been given these gifts, the gift of the Church, food, shelter, ect...perhaps do to our correct choices and that could be blessings we recieve due to keeping the laws of God. But perhaps, just perhaps we are 'chosen' to have these gifts placed upon us, these blessings, because it's a test for us to see if we can ease the suffering of the Somali's or if we will choose to sit on our grand victory chairs and say look how much God loves us.

Instead of looking at it as if God doesn't love the Somali's, maybe we need to look at it as opportunities to show them how much God does love them, an opportunity to provide real missionary works not only in teaching the Gospel but in actually sharing the Atonment.

We have knowledge of the atonement, of the real love of God provided in it. And perhaps the suffering of others is not so much a test for them but a test for us, to see if we use our agency correctly in bringing forth the eternal life of man. Maybe it isn't their agency that is being questioned, but our own.

Suffering does bring us closer to God.

And as LM quoted D&C 122 holds a good deal of the answers...

[Guest mysticmorini]

So in-relation to the OP are you suggesting that God doesn't love (or that he hates) Somalians and thus why their prayers for food (and the like) are not answered? If not (and I suspect you were answering the thread title rather than making such a suggestion), the OP's question remains. Why is Johnny American's prayers for food (or X) answered why Abshir Somali's are not?*.

You are right, I certianly wasn't suggesting that but now that I think on it, it certianly is possible (even though I hope its not the case) that God hates the Somalians. Look at the old testament for examples of people God "hated" the sodomites come to mind.

*I am aware that several people have provided their own answers to the question, I'm not asking personally, I'm just pointing out unless it is being suggested that the reason is that God hates Somali's the scripture in question doesn't answer the question.

I didn't read the context of the OP so that is my fault, although I guess one could make a case that, for whatever reason, God does hate the Somalies.

*thats not my belief and i certianly hope its not the case.

[bytor2112]

What if we, as pre-mortal spirits, exercised our free agency and chose to come to a world that we knew involved suffering, pain, despair, etc... so that we could learn greater truths and lessons through the suffering? Then, I would say that God is indeed powerful, benevolent, and suffering exists.

What if we as pre-mortal spirits were rebellious and because of our choices in the pre-mortal world we landed just where we are in this fallen sphere.

Edited August 25, 2011 by bytor2112

[RescueMom]

What if we as pre-mortal spirits were rebellious and because of our choices in the pre-mortal world we landed just where we are in this fallen sphere.

Or perhaps what if we in pre-mortal spirits were so noble and strong that we said 'put me in the most deplorable conditions and I will still come home'

Or perhaps what if we in pre-mortal spirits knew we were weak and begged to be put in a safe easy place so we wouldn't have to struggle with finding the truth, wouldn't be put in a place where we couldn't have the Gospel easily available.

Being the mother of more than one child, and having one child that is very inactive, I don't love that child less. I see the choices the child makes leads to his sadness, but his worth to me is the same as all my children. I don't communicate less with that child, I don't think he should rot in hell forever because of his choices. And I thank God every day for the Atonement of Christ, which covers all the suffering as well as all the sin my child goes through and ultimately can lead my child back to God, even when I have failed.

I don't see people living in horrid conditions as a failure on their part (be it in this world or in the pre-existence), I see it as a failure on my part to bring them the Gospel.

[bytor2112]

Or perhaps some of us were just deplorable as spirits and thus it is. Certainly our pre-existent talents and traits followed us here and it stands to reason that our poor choices as well. For many, humbling in this life may be the only way they accept the gospel in the spirit realm. Certainly the Lord has wiped out entire civilizations do to wickedness....women, children and the aged, yet, at the same time as Eternal beings they will still yet have the opportunities that await all the faithful.

[rameumptom]

Snow, what are your thoughts on those questions? What should we be praying for? Are prayers about our own family members (assuming who have plenty to eat, are not suffering horrible diseases and have a home to live in) wrong?

Beefche, don't you know that Snow usually doesn't work that way? He isn't out for answers, per se. He's out to ask difficult questions, allow people to try and answer them, and then he'll find the holes in their questions and turn it back on them. We've had this discussion before, as Dravin noted. IIRC Snow never did give any thoughts on it then, either.

Bytor, God does not send us down depending on what we did in the past life, necessarily. God gave each of us a particular experience to see how we would deal with it. For some, we deal with the trial of war and pain. For others, the trial of wealth. Yes, it is a trial, and many fail it. Jesus did say that for the rich it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven.

The thing is, as I noted in the previous Snow postings on this: God isn't just focused on the things occurring in this life. If so, then he would be a tyrant. Instead, he looks at eternity and the things required for exaltation and free will to occur. As Vort noted, God is involved in the world, but not to the level of I Dream of Jeanie. And to allow agency means God must allow evil to exist.

Unlike much of the world that thinks God creates out of nothing (creatio ex nihilo), God forms from existing matter. Given he created us from matter he did not create himself, there is an independence within us. for God to channel that independence so that it can become as He is, it requires agency. Agency means that evil will exist. Yet, God did not create evil.

Evil in the world allows God's work to be done. It causes good men to become better, and evil men to remain evil. Yes, in this life there are many victims, but we know that Christ came down and suffered more than all mankind has, so that he may know how to succor them (Alma 7) in their pains and infirmities, as well as forgive their sins. He will one day wash away the tears of the innocents who are tortured, raped, maimed, terrorized, and killed. And he will give such innocents a reward that is beyond their imagination for the things they have endured. They will be healed, comforted, and brought forth in a great resurrection.

In the end, Jesus and we triumph over all the evils of men. They cannot follow us into the next life, as they will be confined to other realms. But the tragedies teach us compassion, humility, reliance on Christ's atonement, and hope. We know that all children are saved and exalted in Christ. We also know that those good people who die without knowing the gospel will receive at least a terrestrial reward. So, all pain and struggle is covered.

Yes, it is tragic. But only in the mortal sense of things. Evil holds sway here, not because God created it, but he must allow it so we can be exalted through Christ.

[bytor2112]

Bytor, God does not send us down depending on what we did in the past life, necessarily. God gave each of us a particular experience to see how we would deal with it. For some, we deal with the trial of war and pain. For others, the trial of wealth. Yes, it is a trial, and many fail it. Jesus did say that for the rich it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven.

I agree with that, but certainly our choices, talents, traits and proclivities all play into the "experience" with which we are sent. Take for example, SSA....certainly that must have been a trait of that spirit in the pre-mortal realms and now they are dealing with it in mortality.....no?

[Vort]

So God doesn't love at least one person.

Saying you hate someone is not the same as saying you don't love them.

[Dravin]

You are right, I certianly wasn't suggesting that but now that I think on it, it certianly is possible (even though I hope its not the case) that God hates the Somalians. Look at the old testament for examples of people God "hated" the sodomites come to mind.

I didn't read the context of the OP so that is my fault, although I guess one could make a case that, for whatever reason, God does hate the Somalies.

*thats not my belief and i certianly hope its not the case.

Removing the assumption of omnibenevolence does remove the logical conflict. I have to confess I find that route unpalatable for dogmatic reasons.

[rameumptom]

Bytor,

I disagree with that. I'm not convinced either way of whether SSA was an issue in the premortal existence, as there was no body and perhaps no sexual draw one way or the other as there is in the physical body.

I do not believe that some people genetically are born blonde because they were blonde in the premortal existence. I do not believe that a predisposition towards SSA, alcoholism, sexual addiction or any other addiction or tendency came with us from the premortal existence.

Each of us is born with DNA from our earthly parents. DNA is very malleable. We can even change our own DNA, especially in our formative years, but later, also. Tobacco and other carcinogens change our genetics, causing cells to divide at an exponential rate. We can do other things that can affect our hormone levels. Television in the first 2 years of life lead to ADD/ADHD. Pregnant mothers who use cocaine or other drugs often have deformed or addicted babies.

Parents who become fat later in life, pass on a changed DNA structure that increases the likelihood the child will also be fat. My grandfather was an alcoholic. My father was an alcoholic. Guess what? I have no doubt that if I drank, I would also be an alcoholic. It is probably now imprinted in my DNA to give me a tendency towards such addiction.

As for tendencies towards SSA, many studies show a fairly common factor is that the child has been molested along the way by a man. Girls become man haters and therefore tend towards lesbianism. Young boys, who are starved for fatherly love, accept the homosexual experience as a loving relationship, and grow into it. I'm not saying this is true in all cases, mind you. But it is in enough cases that we can understand that environment does impact a lot of these things.

These things have nothing to do with the premortal existence.

[Guest mysticmorini]

Saying you hate someone is not the same as saying you don't love them.

what? you lost me there. They seem to be Antonyms to me, lets see what the encarta English dictionary has to say about the matter:

Hate: Dislike somebody or something intensely; transitive verb to dislike somebody or something intensely, often in a way that evokes feelings of anger, hostility, or animosity

Love:Feel tender affection for someone; transitive and intransitive verb to feel tender affection for somebody such as a close relative or friend, or for something such as a place, an ideal, or an animal

I'm not sure a logically consistant and stable being can feel both of those emotions at the same time toward one group.