Question about the Godhead

[Guest talianstallyun]

As Latter-day Saints, are we taught to love Heavenly Father more than Jesus? It makes sense that we should love the Savior with everything we have. Meanwhile, it is quite clear in the scriptures that we should love Heavenly Father with all our heart, soul, and mind (Matt 22:36-37). However, other scriptures and talks from modern prophets (like D+C 20:19 and a couple of Elder McConkie talks) make it quite clear that the true object of our worship is God the Father. Can someone help me understand how this all fits together? How do we give the Savior our complete love and devotion while keeping the ultimate focus on Heavenly Father? Thanks a ton. It is much appreciated.

[skalenfehl]

I've never quantified my love for Father in Heaven or Christ like that. Perhaps you refer to the fact that we're taught to pray to our Father in Heaven in the name of Christ, His son. While on the earth, Christ always taught to love God with all our heart and to pray to Him. We never pray to Christ, but we only pray in His name because he is our mediator before the Father.

I've never prayed to Jesus Christ. I've always addressed my Father in Heaven, given thanks to Him and asked Him for blessings. I've given Him thanks for His son, Jesus who died for us and so on. But I still love and revere and worship Christ for who He is--my Savior. I hope this makes sense.

[Guest talianstallyun]

Thanks for responding. I understand my basic relationship to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ as you so outlined. I think my question goes deeper than that. Maybe I should just simply ask, am I supposed to love Heavenly Father more? Or how do I worship only Heavenly Father, while loving Him and Jesus the same? Is this making sense? Thank you for your patience with me.

[RipplecutBuddha]

Since they both love us with their whole being, I don't see a way to love one more than the other. They each are doing all they can to bring us back to their presence. Loving one over the other does not seem to be productive beyond the fact that Christ constantly pointed our love and adoration to the Father rather than himself. I don't see that loving Christ as much as Heavnly Father (ie. with all our hearts and souls) would detract from the Gospel at all.

[Backroads]

Sometimes I try to see the Godhead has that--the Godhead. I suppose we could also ask how much we are supposed to love our companion the Holy Ghost. I don't think we are supposed to love anyone more than the other. The Godhead works together in a perfect fashion.

[skalenfehl]

Thanks for responding. I understand my basic relationship to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ as you so outlined. I think my question goes deeper than that. Maybe I should just simply ask, am I supposed to love Heavenly Father more? Or how do I worship only Heavenly Father, while loving Him and Jesus the same? Is this making sense? Thank you for your patience with me.

Simple.

Matthew 22:36-40

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Follow Christ's example and His teachings and you'll do just fine by both of them.

[Casper]

In D&C 42:22 we are also told

“Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.”

I look at it in the same way as a parent having children, they have one chilled and they love that chilled with all their heart, however when another chilled is bourn they don’t have to stop loving the first as much so they have love left for the next chilled.

The ability for the parent to love is increased and they can love as many children as they are blessed with and they can do it with all their heart.

[bytebear]

Since when is love finite? Do we have a bucket of love that we can only pour so much into each glass?

[JudoMinja]

Am I supposed to love Heavenly Father more?

Do you have children? Do you love one child more than another? What about your parents? Do you love your father more than your mother, or vice versa?

Love is not quantifiable. It is not measurable.

Our feelings toward different people will be unique and in keeping with our relationship with that person, but any unique feeling does not mean we love that person more than another. Our relationship is just... different. We have love for our parents, our spouse, our children, our friends, our neighbors... These feelings are all very different, but they are still love, and we do not necessarily love one more than another.

It is the same with the Godhead. Our relationships with the Father and the Son will be different, but that does not mean we must love one more than the other. It would be impossible to do so. We just have a different kind of love for each based on our personal relationship with them.

[bytor2112]

Our purpose in mortality is to "prepare to meet God". Christ is our example in all things and said, "if you love me , keep my commandments". When we keep the commandments, we are showing our love for the Savior and will qualify to return to the Father. We love the Savior absolutely...HE is the Savior of mankind. We worship the Father by following HIS commandments.

I think speaking specifically of Elder McConkie, that he was saying, that the notion that you should have an intimate and personal relationship with Jesus, as is so often suggested by other Christian faiths is wrong and at the time had begun to creep in to our faith.

[Blackmarch]

As Latter-day Saints, are we taught to love Heavenly Father more than Jesus? It makes sense that we should love the Savior with everything we have. Meanwhile, it is quite clear in the scriptures that we should love Heavenly Father with all our heart, soul, and mind (Matt 22:36-37). However, other scriptures and talks from modern prophets (like D+C 20:19 and a couple of Elder McConkie talks) make it quite clear that the true object of our worship is God the Father. Can someone help me understand how this all fits together? How do we give the Savior our complete love and devotion while keeping the ultimate focus on Heavenly Father? Thanks a ton. It is much appreciated.

when i pray, it is to God the Father, and not Christ. I don't think it can get more personal than that. Christ is just as deserving, but we are commanded to pray to our Father who is in heaven, and Christ gives all glory to his Father.

[SteveVH]

As Latter-day Saints, are we taught to love Heavenly Father more than Jesus? It makes sense that we should love the Savior with everything we have. Meanwhile, it is quite clear in the scriptures that we should love Heavenly Father with all our heart, soul, and mind (Matt 22:36-37). However, other scriptures and talks from modern prophets (like D+C 20:19 and a couple of Elder McConkie talks) make it quite clear that the true object of our worship is God the Father. Can someone help me understand how this all fits together? How do we give the Savior our complete love and devotion while keeping the ultimate focus on Heavenly Father? Thanks a ton. It is much appreciated.

From a Catholic viewpoint, I think your dilema originates in the Mormon view of the Godhead in which you must at once believe in two conflicting propositions.

From the Book of Mormon:

"I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity" (Moroni 8:18).

"For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and in him there is no variableness, neither shadow of changing? And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles" (Mormon 9:9-10).

From the King Follett Discourse:

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another" (King Follett Discourse).

So you must simultaneously believe that "God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and in him there is no variableness, neither shadow of changing..." and at the same time that]"God himself was once as we are now..." meaning that he changed from the human state to a divine state, becoming (changing into) God.

This, combined with the rejection of the Trinity, leaves you in confusion as to just who God is (is he the Father, or the Son or the Holy Spirit?). Just who is the one God that you should worship and adore?

[z_o_n_e]

I've thought that it was the Father, which is God, Jesus the son, which we seek salvation through, and the Holy Ghost that confirms it.

I worship the Father (through Jesus), praise Jesus, and am thankful for when I am graced by the Holy Ghost. I'm not sure how that works in Mormon theology. I've been given mixed answers when I did attend the ward, and many people did believe in the trinity and worshipped all three parts of the God head as one God.

I've never really understood the trinity myself. Not saying it is wrong, just couldn't wrap my head around it. The way I see it, is the Godhead is three separate personages united in purpose. Not three separate personages united in one being.

With all of that said, I was only in the church for a few months before I became inactive. I would like to see some confirmation on this myself. (please)

[SteveVH]

I've thought that it was the Father, which is God, Jesus the son, which we seek salvation through, and the Holy Ghost that confirms it.

I worship the Father (through Jesus), praise Jesus, and am thankful for when I am graced by the Holy Ghost. I'm not sure how that works in Mormon theology. I've been given mixed answers when I did attend the ward, and many people did believe in the trinity and worshipped all three parts of the God head as one God.

I've never really understood the trinity myself. Not saying it is wrong, just couldn't wrap my head around it. The way I see it, is the Godhead is three separate personages united in purpose. Not three separate personages united in one being.

With all of that said, I was only in the church for a few months before I became inactive. I would like to see some confirmation on this myself. (please)

If we could wrap our minds around the nature of God, then he would be no greater than us. As a Catholic, I believe that we can come to understand God's existence through human reason. To be informed as to his true nature it took revelation and I believe that he was revealed to be a Trinity; Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three distinct Persons in one being. The best way I have found, speaking as a human and limited by a finite mind, is a comparison to the substance of water (H2O). While it can take the form of a solid, a liquid or a gas; three distinct forms, it remains the same substance.

I think one of the obstacles in seeing this from a Mormon view is that there is no distinction between the "substance" or "being" of man and of God. As a Catholic I believe that God is divine and we are human. He is the Creator and we are the created. We are invited to share in God's divinity by sharing in the interior life of the Trinity; the love between the Father and the Son (which is the Holy Spirit). That is what we call heaven. But we will never be God, we will be his adapted human sons and daughters.

So, we do not believe it because we fully understand it. We believe it because it was revealed to us by God himself in the person of Jesus Christ.

[estradling75]

First you say Mormons are confused understanding because of our doctrine.. Then you turn around and say gods nature is a mystery and that the mortal minds can't understand it which means you can't understand it either... Not a very strong position.

The Mormon position is very easy and it come by what we believe to be direct revelation

Doctrine and Covenants 130:22 

The mystery that we truly don't get is how tight their oneness in purpose really is, while remaining physical separate. That is something we can only vaugely grasp and make analogys for

Please show where the trinity, as you defined it in your last post, is defined in just as clear detail in the bible. And you need to do better then basic scriptures proclaiming that they are one.

[SteveVH]

First you say Mormons are confused understanding because of our doctrine.. Then you turn around and say gods nature is a mystery and that the mortal minds can't understand it which means you can't understand it either... Not a very strong position.

I was not commenting on what you or I understand, but rather what you and I believe. When one believes that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate and distinct beings, or gods, rather than in one God, comprised of three Persons who are united in being, (they are truly one, not just in purpose) then it is easy for me to understand that there may be some confusion as to just who you are to worship.

And yes, I think there is confusion in what you are asked to believe from the foundational standpoint of the very nature of God which then extends to other beliefs. Do you not find any contradiction in the fact that the Book of Mormon states that God "is is the same yesterday, today and forever, and in him there is no variableness, neither shadow of changing..." and at the same time you are asked to believe in a God that was once as we are now and that he progressed to godhood just as you will progress to godhood; in other words that he "changed"? I'll just ask you straight out. Which of these two propositions do you believe? Objectively, you cannot believe in both simultaneously.

The confusion lies in the fact that you do not believe in one God, without beginning or end, who created everything from nothing. One who holds this belief is not confused as to who one should worship. There is only one.

Please show where the trinity, as you defined it in your last post, is defined in just as clear detail in the bible. And you need to do better then basic scriptures proclaiming that they are one.

Well, if I have to show you from the Bible and at the same time have to "do better than basic Scriptures" then you are asking the impossible. Maybe you could demonstrate for me how this could be done.

[Vort]

Well, if I have to show you from the Bible and at the same time have to "do better than basic Scriptures" then you are asking the impossible. Maybe you could demonstrate for me how this could be done.

Scriptures proclaiming that the Father and the Son are one do not define a "Trinity". Jesus commanded his disciples to be one, even as he and the Father are one. Do you think he was commanding them to become a Trinity?

And please don't fall back on the useless "it's a mystery" excuse. That's beyond weak sauce.

[estradling75]

You defined the trinity as

Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three distinct Persons in one being.

You also say

To be informed as to his true nature it took revelation and I believe that he was revealed to be a Trinity

I am asking you to cite your revelation. And while I admit I might not have been clear before I meant your revelation aka scripture need to be more then simple proclaiming that god is ONE

Well, if I have to show you from the Bible and at the same time have to "do better than basic Scriptures" then you are asking the impossible. Maybe you could demonstrate for me how this could be done.

I did... I will again

Physical form

The Scriptures

D&C 130 : 22

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Steven's vision of the Father and the Son

Jesus's baptism with the Father speaking from Heaven, and the Holy Ghost with the sign of the Dove

I find that to be very clear...

Now the oneness

They are one is purpose and plan and execution

The scriptures

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Repeated again in verse 22

Then the scriptures show this being fulfilled in several places in the New Testament... Every time the scripture say they acted in One Accord mainly in the book of Acts

That is the Revelations and understanding that we Mormons have on the nature of God.

Now show us were is it clearly revealed that God Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit three personalities in the same body?

[SteveVH]

Scriptures proclaiming that the Father and the Son are one do not define a "Trinity". Jesus commanded his disciples to be one, even as he and the Father are one. Do you think he was commanding them to become a Trinity?

And please don't fall back on the useless "it's a mystery" excuse. That's beyond weak sauce.

Well, the fact that it is a mystery is not an excuse, it is a simple fact that humans, with a finite mind, cannot fully grasp the infinite God. Nevertheless, I had no intention of "falling back" on this as an argument.

You must begin with the fundamental Jewish and Christian belief that there is only one God:

“You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.” – Deuteronomy 4:35

"This is what the LORD says- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.” – Isaiah 44:6

Other Old Testament Verses: Deut. 4:39; 32:39; 2 Sam. 22:32; Isa. 37:20; 43:10; 44:6-8; 45:5, 14, 21-22; 46:9.

“How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?” – John 5:44

“…since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.” Romans 3:30

Other New Testament Verses: Rom. 16:27; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Gal. 3:20; Eph. 4:6, 1 Tim. 1:17; 2:5; James 2:19; Jude 25.

Scripture tells us that the Father is God:

“Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,” – 2 Corinthians 1:3

“Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.” – Ephesians 1:3

Scripture tells us that Jesus is God:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.” – John 1:1

“Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’” – John 20:28

“We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.” – 1 John 5:20.

And Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit is God:

“Then Peter said, ‘Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.’” [emphasis added] (Acts 5:3-4)

Paul clearly and explicitly equated the Holy Spirit with God:

“Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.” – 2 Corinthians 3:17-18

So we know from the outset that there is only one God, yet we are aslo told that this God consists of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Nowhere do we find that they are one only in purpose. Those words simply do not exist in the Christian Scriptures. No doubt they are one in purpose, but it is much more than just purpose. There is only one God.

Hope this helps.

Edited September 9, 2011 by StephenVH

[Vort]

Well, the fact that it is a mystery is not an excuse, it is a simple fact that humans, with a finite mind, cannot fully grasp the infinite God.

Perhaps. But one need not "fully comprehend" God to know his nature, any more than one need "fully comprehend" mathematics to do math.

You must begin with the fundamental Jewish and Christian belief that there is only one God:

Okay.

Scripture tells us that the Father is God:

Okay.

Scripture tells us that Jesus is God:

Okay.

And Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit is God:

[...]

Paul clearly and explicitly equated the Holy Spirit with God:

Okay.

So we know from the outset that there is only one God, yet we are aslo told that this God consists of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Yes, yes, this is all true. Latter-day Saints believe that, too. What we do not believe is the senseless "trinity" doctrine. I am asking you to address the non-Biblical trinity doctrine, not to expound on a bunch of things everyone already believes.

No doubt they are one in purpose, but it is much more than just purpose. There is only one God.

Hope this helps.

Not really. You have failed to give any justification to the nonsensical doctrine of "the trinity" beyond reciting a bunch of facts that are not in dispute. You have also failed to give any explanation of Jesus' meaning in commanding his disciples to be one, even as he and his Father are one.

[SteveVH]

You defined the trinity as

You also say

I am asking you to cite your revelation. And while I admit I might not have been clear before I meant your revelation aka scripture need to be more then simple proclaiming that god is ONE

I did... I will again

Physical form

The Scriptures

D&C 130 : 22

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Steven's vision of the Father and the Son

Jesus's baptism with the Father speaking from Heaven, and the Holy Ghost with the sign of the Dove

I find that to be very clear...

Now the oneness

They are one is purpose and plan and execution

The scriptures

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Repeated again in verse 22

Then the scriptures show this being fulfilled in several places in the New Testament... Every time the scripture say they acted in One Accord mainly in the book of Acts

That is the Revelations and understanding that we Mormons have on the nature of God.

Now show us were is it clearly revealed that God Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit three personalities in the same body?

See my post to Vort. All of your biblical quotes could just as well be referencing the Trinity (and I , of course believe they are). As for your quotes of John 17, we become one, as Jesus and the Father are one, by becoming members of the mystical body of Christ, i.e. his Church. He was praying for unity. We believe that we are the body of Christ, just as Paul tells us we are.

As for your quotes form D&C, I do not consider them Scripture. I don't mean that to be offensive, it is just that it holds no credibility with me as far as making an argument.

By the way, why won't you answer the question I asked a few posts back?

Originally Posted by StephenVH

And yes, I think there is confusion in what you are asked to believe from the foundational standpoint of the very nature of God which then extends to other beliefs. Do you not find any contradiction in the fact that the Book of Mormon states that God "is is the same yesterday, today and forever, and in him there is no variableness, neither shadow of changing..." and at the same time you are asked to believe in a God that was once as we are now and that he progressed to godhood just as you will progress to godhood; in other words that he "changed"? I'll just ask you straight out. Which of these two propositions do you believe? Objectively, you cannot believe in both simultaneously.

Edited September 9, 2011 by StephenVH

[estradling75]

See my post to Vort. All of your biblical quotes could just as well be referencing the Trinity (and I , of course believe they are). As for your quotes of John 17, we become one, as Jesus and the Father are one, by becoming members of the mystical body of Christ, i.e. his Church. He was praying for unity. We believe that we are the body of Christ, just as Paul tells us we are.

As for your quotes form D&C, I do not consider them Scripture. I don't mean that to be offensive, it is just that it holds no credibility with me as far as making an argument.

And see Vort's response...

As for not believing the D&C that ok... You can feel free to use anything that you will claim as being scripture support your claims even if I don't accept them... Its only fair

[Vort]

As for your quotes of John 17, we become one, as Jesus and the Father are one, by becoming members of the mystical body of Christ, i.e. his Church. He was praying for unity.

So, then, you are asserting one of two possibilities:

• Jesus and the Father are individual beings, united in purpose and in heart, but not any sort of union of personhood, exactly as those who gain membership in the "mystical body* of Christ" become one.
• Those who join the "mystical body of Christ" eventually lose their status as individuals and instead unite into a conglomerate personality of some sort, perhaps with individual expressions but with no actual individuality.

Which of these two possibilities best reflects your own ideas? Or is there a third possibility I have missed?

*Can you demonstrate the term "mystical body of Christ" from Christian scriptures?

[SteveVH]

Perhaps. But one need not "fully comprehend" God to know his nature, any more than one need "fully comprehend" mathematics to do math.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Yes, yes, this is all true. Latter-day Saints believe that, too. What we do not believe is the senseless "trinity" doctrine. I am asking you to address the non-Biblical trinity doctrine, not to expound on a bunch of things everyone already believes.

Not really. You have failed to give any justification to the nonsensical doctrine of "the trinity" beyond reciting a bunch of facts that are not in dispute. You have also failed to give any explanation of Jesus' meaning in commanding his disciples to be one, even as he and his Father are one.

I was asked to explain my position using Scripture. I did that. You choose to take these same Scriptures and apply your own meaning based upon one reference of Christ praying for unity. By the way, I think we'll get along much better without the derogatory adjectives.

God bless.

[SteveVH]

So, then, you are asserting one of two possibilities:

• Jesus and the Father are individual beings, united in purpose and in heart, but not any sort of union of personhood, exactly as those who gain membership in the "mystical body* of Christ" become one.
• Those who join the "mystical body of Christ" eventually lose their status as individuals and instead unite into a conglomerate personality of some sort, perhaps with individual expressions but with no actual individuality.

Which of these two possibilities best reflects your own ideas? Or is there a third possibility I have missed?

*Can you demonstrate the term "mystical body of Christ" from Christian scriptures?

"For as in one body we have many parts, and all the parts do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ…" (Romans 12:4).

"...put all things beneath his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body…" (1:22-23).

"For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body…" (1 Corinthians 12:13)

While persecuting the Church, Paul encounters Jesus Christ who says to him,"Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" (Acts 9:1, 4). Jesus did not ask him, "Why are you persecuting my church?" Jesus asked him "Why do you persecute me?" Somehow, some way, Christ and the church are so intimately one, so united, that his persecution of the church was a persecution of Christ. That is why we refer to it as the "mystical body of Christ".

We become part of the Body of Christ through baptism:

"For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body…" (1 Corinthians 12:13).

If it is the word "mystical" that bothers you, please remember that it is the same Church that gave you the New Testament that has defined it in these terms.