I hope I'm overreacting, but...

[skippy740]

I'd like some input on how I can go about teaching my cub scouts in my pack.

I'm the Assistant Cubmaster and this week we had our pack meeting in the cultural hall. The cultural hall is also where we have the nursery during our Sunday meetings.

Well, there was a black baby doll/toy in the cultural hall... and one of the little wolf scouts was carrying it saying "that's an ugly baby".

Now I looked at the toy to see if there was some other markings or anything done to it to make it not look like a baby (you know, like crayon markings, pens, eyes poked out, etc.). Nope. Just looked like a little black baby.

The additional reason I'm concerned is because we just had a mixed race family move into the ward boundaries and baptized the father this past Sunday. I don't want to hear about any rude comments to be made to the children of that family... and definitely NOT from my scouts!

So, I want to address this in their den meetings this next week. I know that 'it's only a toy', but I don't want anything to escalate to involve an actual person. Then I'd be really concerned... because this is not how scouts should act or think.

How would you go about it - to talk about an issue like this to 8-9-10 year old boys?

Adults would be much easier. But kids?

I don't want to scare them or make them feel really bad... but I just want to 'open their eyes'.

Any and all input is appreciated.

[annewandering]

ugg. three of my grandchildren are multiracial and that would just not make me happy to think they might be treated that way. sure its a doll but it could have been a baby, like my granddaughter, Addy. great for the nursery to bring toys to make the family feel welcomed.

I would just be flat out with them myself but I am told I am too blunt.

[Jennarator]

I would do a general lesson on how people are the same and how they are differnt. Open up a discussion. I don't know if I would bring up that particular incedent. We don't know if he just thought babies, in general, are ugly, or just wanted to me cool about a doll regaurless of color. I, too, have many races in me and wouldn't want anyone to treat others different because of skin color. I think unless you know he said it because of color, I wouldn't bring that up, but I would talk about how people are equal and all should be treated the same.

[applepansy]

I agree with Jenn. A general discussion about everyone being a child of our Heavenly Father. Let the kids be part of the discussion. You'll find out more that way.

[skippy740]

I was just going through my recent edition of Scouting magazine. On page 30, is the article "A New World View" and it reminded me of the BSA World Crest patch and what it means.

I think I'll try to put something together based on the patch and what it means for us as scouters.

The World Crest

The crest is designed with a center motif encircled by a rope tied with a reef or square knot, which symbolizes the unity and brotherhood of the movement throughout the world.

Keep the ideas comin'!

[Guest gopecon]

This is a tough one, I don't envy you. I agree that you should address it in some way. I like the idea about a general lesson on treating everyone well. If you know the parents of this one boy well enough you could ask them for input. Maybe they could do an FHE. As a parent I would want to know about my kids saying hurtful things like this so I could attempt to put a stop to it. We don't live in a very diverse area, but I don't ever want them to get the idea that its okay to be racially hateful in any way.

I will say that since we are talking about young boys here, he might have just not liked dolls in general. Maybe he was just trying to get under a girl's skin that was playing with the doll. At least we can hope this is all it was...

[Dravin]

As mentioned you could have a couple internal scenarios going on:

1) He thought the doll was ugly because of the ethnicity it is trying to represent.*

2) He thought the doll was ugly for reasons other than ethnicity.

I'll be honest, I think quite a few dolls are ugly, so I'm less prone to assume #1 is where is mind was going. I suppose I'm just chiming in to back of Jenn's point that without further information you don't know exactly what was going on in his noggin'.

Edited October 28, 2011 by Dravin

[Jennarator]

This is a tough one, I don't envy you. I agree that you should address it in some way. I like the idea about a general lesson on treating everyone well. If you know the parents of this one boy well enough you could ask them for input. Maybe they could do an FHE. As a parent I would want to know about my kids saying hurtful things like this so I could attempt to put a stop to it. We don't live in a very diverse area, but I don't ever want them to get the idea that its okay to be racially hateful in any way.

I will say that since we are talking about young boys here, he might have just not liked dolls in general. Maybe he was just trying to get under a girl's skin that was playing with the doll. At least we can hope this is all it was...

This child may have learned it from a parent....tho I still hope it was just because it was a doll and had nothing to do with the color.

[Dravin]

This child may have learned it from a parent....tho I still hope it was just because it was a doll and had nothing to do with the color.

Well, then Skippy may learn from such a conversation that such is the case and at least know it's gonna be an uphill battle if he wants to influence the kid's behavior. You kinda have three outcomes from talking with a parent about it.

1) Parent(s) will encourage the behavior.

2) Parent(s) will not care about the behavior.

3) Parent(s) will discourage the behavior.

3 is good, 2 leaves you in the same spot you were before, and with 1 if the parents are going to be encouraging the behavior he's probably steeped in it already.

[skippy740]

Personally, I really DO hope I'm overreacting.

But, in case I'm not, I want to nip it early.

This is a true story: I've heard of kids in a ward (not in my state) that told other black kids that they were 'cursed'. It got back to the parents & the bishop. It became a huge issue. Marvin Perkins did an 'emergency fireside' to help with the education of the saints.

I just don't want anything close to that happening in my ward... and while I'm in a leadership position to help influence the right and better ways to relate with others.

[Jennarator]

I agree, nip it. I would hate to see a child learn to hate. They are lucky to have someone that notices and cares as a leader.

[Vort]

I'd like some input on how I can go about teaching my cub scouts in my pack.

I'm the Assistant Cubmaster and this week we had our pack meeting in the cultural hall. The cultural hall is also where we have the nursery during our Sunday meetings.

Well, there was a black baby doll/toy in the cultural hall... and one of the little wolf scouts was carrying it saying "that's an ugly baby".

Now I looked at the toy to see if there was some other markings or anything done to it to make it not look like a baby (you know, like crayon markings, pens, eyes poked out, etc.). Nope. Just looked like a little black baby.

The additional reason I'm concerned is because we just had a mixed race family move into the ward boundaries and baptized the father this past Sunday. I don't want to hear about any rude comments to be made to the children of that family... and definitely NOT from my scouts!

So, I want to address this in their den meetings this next week. I know that 'it's only a toy', but I don't want anything to escalate to involve an actual person. Then I'd be really concerned... because this is not how scouts should act or think.

How would you go about it - to talk about an issue like this to 8-9-10 year old boys?

Adults would be much easier. But kids?

I don't want to scare them or make them feel really bad... but I just want to 'open their eyes'.

Any and all input is appreciated.

I would ask the child (in private), "Why do you think the baby is ugly?" If the answer is not some variation of "Because it's BLACK!", I would try gently to explain that it is always best not ever to criticize babies or children for their looks, even dolls.

If the answer IS some variation of "Because it's BLACK!", I would try gently to explain that God has made people in all sorts of colors and shapes, and all are created in the image of God, so when we say that someone is ugly because of his skin color or height or shape or something, we are calling God ugly. So it's better not to say such things. (I would probably add the last part explicitly, as a nine-year-old boy is entirely likely to miss the point if it is not made clear.)

[Suzie]

I'd like some input on how I can go about teaching my cub scouts in my pack.

I'm the Assistant Cubmaster and this week we had our pack meeting in the cultural hall. The cultural hall is also where we have the nursery during our Sunday meetings.

Well, there was a black baby doll/toy in the cultural hall... and one of the little wolf scouts was carrying it saying "that's an ugly baby".

Now I looked at the toy to see if there was some other markings or anything done to it to make it not look like a baby (you know, like crayon markings, pens, eyes poked out, etc.). Nope. Just looked like a little black baby.

The additional reason I'm concerned is because we just had a mixed race family move into the ward boundaries and baptized the father this past Sunday. I don't want to hear about any rude comments to be made to the children of that family... and definitely NOT from my scouts!

So, I want to address this in their den meetings this next week. I know that 'it's only a toy', but I don't want anything to escalate to involve an actual person. Then I'd be really concerned... because this is not how scouts should act or think.

How would you go about it - to talk about an issue like this to 8-9-10 year old boys?

Adults would be much easier. But kids?

I don't want to scare them or make them feel really bad... but I just want to 'open their eyes'.

Any and all input is appreciated.

You are not overreacting. As a matter of fact, the statement the child made is quite common even within the African American community. Back in the 1940's two psychologists made a doll experiment with a black doll and a white doll and then asked young African American children questions such as "Which doll is the pretty doll?" "Which doll is the ugly doll?" "Which doll is the good doll? "Which doll is the bad doll" and so on. One of the many versions of the experiment:

[annewandering]

You are not overreacting. As a matter of fact, the statement the child made is quite common even within the African American community. Back in the 1940's two psychologists made a doll experiment with a black doll and a white doll and then asked young African American children questions such as "Which doll is the pretty doll?" "Which doll is the ugly doll?" "Which doll is the good doll? "Which doll is the bad doll" and so on. One of the many versions of the experiment:

I have read about that experiment as well. Its pretty sad but important that we dont carry those kind of impressions forward to the next generation.

If you discussed that in a scout meeting it might be a good idea even besides the doll incident. Snip any thoughts along that line in the bud.

[RMGuy]

Skippy,

You might find the praxis model of difficult communication beneficial.

Start by asking the scout privaltely...

"What do you think about this baby?"

"Why do you think that?"

"What causes you to believe that?"

"Here is what I think"

"THis is why I think that"

"What do you think now?"

I've found it useful in similar circumstances.

-RM

[FairChild]

Perhaps a good line of thought is "What do you think makes a person "Beautiful or Ugly" both on the inside and outside. What in you makes you personally beautiful? Kids are pretty sharp and hopefully will learn how to think a beyond what they might first see or think. Good luck.

[sister_in_faith]

You are not overreacting. As a matter of fact, the statement the child made is quite common even within the African American community. Back in the 1940's two psychologists made a doll experiment with a black doll and a white doll and then asked young African American children questions such as "Which doll is the pretty doll?" "Which doll is the ugly doll?" "Which doll is the good doll? "Which doll is the bad doll" and so on. One of the many versions of the experiment:

This video made me cry. Our society is so twisted in some ways. It breaks my heart.

[Suzie]

This video made me cry. Our society is so twisted in some ways. It breaks my heart.

You know what? I don't think is unique to American society. I think if you carry out this experiment in most countries, you would probably get a similar result.

[sister_in_faith]

I agree with you Suzie. Human society is twisted.

[skippy740]

Update: I did talk with the leader just to find out what she said (since the situation bothered me). She told me that she told the scout that "All babies are beautiful and come from God." I thanked her for such a great answer. I thought it was perfect, decided to just drop the matter and consider it closed.

[Gwen]

Ok so I know you have posted the conclusion and all but I'm just seeing this. lol

When my kids do things like that (all kids will say something like that at some point) I tend to handle it right then. "Why do YOU think it's ugly?" the follow up questions are determined by the first answer. I tend to avoid focus on any one thing (like the race of the doll) and focus on the fact that "ugly" is an opinion. When someone runs around repeating their opinion over and over and over it's just plain rude. Teach them to reword their phrases from "that is an ugly doll" to "I don't think that is an attractive doll"... which is ok, there are some dolls I think are just ugly or creepy looking. lol

I run into the same issue when my boys think the outfit my daughter picked out is ugly or one of my boys thinks the other one's new shoes are ugly. It's ok to not like something. The key is to learn how/when/if to communicate that and to always remember that is an opinion not a fact. I would focus on teaching tact and manners.

However, if his answer indicated a lean toward bigotry then I would go there and be very forward and clear about it.

If you do run into race issues in the future don't forget to use the family as a resource. Go to them, after some prayer, and talk to them about it. Not this specific event but just that some of these kids have not been around other races. Make the differences (and similarities) an open topic of conversation. Ask them about their journey in the church as a mixed race family and what their opinions are on teaching the kids about it. But I guess that may make some ppl uncomfortable, I'm just open like that.

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