Guest Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 "The heart wants what it wants" is one phrase I really hate, and probably was put into circulation by the Adversary himself. I want to live on nothing but chocolate cake, cheesecake, steak, and butter. Should I? Would it be good for me? Would it be good for my family? "Want" holds about as much credence to me as "deserve". Meaning, none. You can alter your wants. You have control over them. Focus your wants on your wife and family and long-term goals and desires in their regard. Turn your wants to God's will. As far as "deserve" (not that you brought that word up, but I feel compelled to address it), I think anyone that feels they deserve anything, be it happiness (which again, should be created in the marriage that already exists) or worldly goods or a job, should read King Benjamin's address over and over and over again until they get it through their skulls that none of us deserves a darn thing and we should be everlastingly thankful for what we've already been given. </soapbox> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 Fundamentally one cannot love someone in a romantic sense without knowing them, and getting to know someone is fundamentally a choice. There are many emotions that do not require an sort of intimate attachment or level of knowledge romantic love one is not one of them. Infatuation, attraction, obsessions, pining, these can all be built around a scaffold of fantasy, true romantic love requires knowledge and connection which are choices.P.S.: I am of course talking about my understanding of romantic love and not a dictionary definition.Quoting this because it's so right that it needs to be read again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted November 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 "The heart wants what it wants" is one phrase I really hate, and probably was put into circulation by the Adversary himself. I think we give the adversary far to much credit. It is a good phrase and often expresses simply why we love someone that others just can't figure out why.I want to live on nothing but chocolate cake, cheesecake, steak, and butter. Should I? Would it be good for me? Would it be good for my family?um..yum. Good no....but you would be very popular."Want" holds about as much credence to me as "deserve". Meaning, none. You can alter your wants. You have control over them. Focus your wants on your wife and family and long-term goals and desires in their regard. Turn your wants to God's will. As far as "deserve" (not that you brought that word up, but I feel compelled to address it), I think anyone that feels they deserve anything, be it happiness (which again, should be created in the marriage that already exists) or worldly goods or a job, should read King Benjamin's address over and over and over again until they get it through their skulls that none of us deserves a darn thing and we should be everlastingly thankful for what we've already been given. </soapboxTotally disagree. I think "wanting" is good. Wanting wrong things is bad. I think we "deserve" the outcome of our efforts...both good and bad. Do we deserve to be happy? Well, I surely believe the Lord wants us to be so and we live in a land where the right to pursue happiness is fundamental. We don't deserve a darn thing? Harsh.I love King Benjamin, but I am a faithful Latter Day Saint....not everyone is or would ever care to be. That being said, I am thankful for the opportunities I have been given in life. What I have done with those opportunities have produced the story line of my life and are a direct result of my choices and efforts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted November 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 Fundamentally one cannot love someone in a romantic sense without knowing them, and getting to know someone is fundamentally a choice. There are many emotions that do not require any sort of intimate attachment or level of knowledge romantic love is not one of them. Infatuation, attraction, obsessions, pining, these can all be built around a scaffold of fantasy, true romantic love requires knowledge and connection which are choices.P.S.: I am of course talking about my understanding of romantic love and not a dictionary definition.Infatuation and attraction are often confused as romantic love....maybe that is why so many divorce. Is connection a choice? We can choose to try to connect....but what about spontaneity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 We give the adversary too much credit for temptations? Where do they come from then? He would certainly have you believe that it's not him. #2 Nephi 28:2222 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.I agree that according to the laws of justice, we deserve consequences of our bad choices. But you know that's not what I was talking about. On "deserving" good things:Mosiah 2 23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him. 24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast? 25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you.Yes, Heavenly Father WANTS us to be happy. That doesn't mean we deserve happiness. It means that's His desire for us, and that's we He has given us a blueprint for a way to live, for what WE MUST DO, that will bring us eternal happiness. On that topic:#2 Nephi 5:2727 And it came to pass that we lived after the manner of happiness.#Alma 41:1111 And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness.#Alma 41:1010 Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.#Mormon 2:1313 But behold this my joy was vain, for their sorrowing was not unto repentance, because of the goodness of God; but it was rather the sorrowing of the damned, because the Lord would not always suffer them to take happiness in sin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted November 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 Eowyn....you are free to blame the devil for everything under the sun, but the phrase that I quoted doesn't have malevolent meaning.Yes, Heavenly Father WANTS us to be happy. That doesn't mean we deserve happiness. It means that's His desire for us, and that's we He has given us a blueprint for a way to live, for what WE MUST DO, that will bring us eternal happiness. On that topic:If HE desires for me to have it then I must deserve it since HE wants me to have it. We are after all talking about happiness and not coveting our neighbors new sports car and feeling we surely deserve it more than they. Eowyn...you DESERVE to be happy...now quit blaming the devil and go out do the things that will make you happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 Who says I'm not? I'm very happily married for over 13 years with a great family that's strongly rooted in the Gospel. Credit for that goes to my Heavenly Father, and to the work we've done to remain in complete fidelity, and to keep things fun and follow the teachings of the Gospel. Just because I've been given good gifts doesn't mean I've deserved them. Acknowledging that everything I have is from Heavenly Father makes me happier. Realizing that nothing I could ever do would make me deserving of the piles of gifts and blessings my Father bestows on me draws me closer to Him and makes me more grateful, which in turn brings me more blessings. Why do you take issue with that? Realizing that temptations come from somewhere and that I do have something to fight against for that which is good and true makes me aware, but not unhappy. Why would that make me unhappy? Maybe I could say to you to stop justifying things which are against the pattern of happiness, and go out and do things that WILL make you happy, not things that sound fun or spontaneous or neat and exciting right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted November 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 Who says I'm not? I'm very happily married for over 13 years with a great family that's strongly rooted in the Gospel. Credit for that goes to my Heavenly Father, and to the work we've done to remain in complete fidelity, and to keep things fun and follow the teachings of the Gospel. Just because I've been given good gifts doesn't mean I've deserved them. Acknowledging that everything I have is from Heavenly Father makes me happier. Realizing that nothing I could ever do would make me deserving of the piles of gifts and blessings my Father bestows on me draws me closer to Him and makes me more grateful, which in turn brings me more blessings. Why do you take issue with that? Realizing that temptations come from somewhere and that I do have something to fight against for that which is good and true makes me aware, but not unhappy. Why would that make me unhappy? Maybe I could say to you to stop justifying things which are against the pattern of happiness, and go out and do things that WILL make you happy, not things that sound fun or spontaneous or neat and exciting right now.Tongue and cheek....a jest....my comments were. That being said, what oh what have I justified that is against the "pattern of happiness".? I would submit that fun, spontaneous and neat are all part of the human experience and are aokay with the Lord....as long as those spontaneous, neat and exciting things are not sinful living. Wheels within wheels in a spiral array ...a pattern so grand and complex. Much to this life experience and much that can excite, inspire and bring happiness and joy and contentment. Note: Not sure how this all got started but...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 He is a good and faithful saint, attends the Temple regularly and these feelings were uninvited and unintended. So, how does that happen?How does that happen? Because men and women are naturally attracted to each other (regardless of their marital status). The problem is when that attraction is not controlled, when thoughts start going wild and so on...That's when the issue starts IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted November 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 How does that happen? Because men and women are naturally attracted to each other (regardless of their marital status). The problem is when that attraction is not controlled, when thoughts start going wild and so on...That's when the issue starts IMO.Yep....totally agree. Kind of like at the gym when an attractive young lady in scant workout clothing walks by and one man quickly glances or notices and another stares as if in a hypnotic trance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 (edited) Yep....totally agree. Kind of like at the gym when an attractive young lady in scant workout clothing walks by and one man quickly glances or notices and another stares as if in a hypnotic trance.The thing is, by and large, those taking the stance that love is a choice would not classify that as love but another emotion or feeling. I think everyone here in the thread could agree that attraction is not necessarily a conscious choice. Edited November 26, 2011 by Dravin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted November 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 How does one fall in love then? Doesn't one choose to progress from being an acquaintance to getting to know someone? Isn't that a choice? You meet someone that you find attractive, then you choose to begin thinking of that person more and more and allow yourself to think of that person in a romantic sense. You choose to spend time with that person. How is love not a choice?Yes, a series of choices ...a process, but don't people find that they have fallen in love unexpectedly? Maybe they made those decisions without knowing they were making them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 (edited) Yes, a series of choices ...a process, but don't people find that they have fallen in love unexpectedly? Maybe they made those decisions without knowing they were making them.I think that it is entirely possible for people to make decisions that, at the time or even in isolation, seem unrelated to such a process, but ultimately they play into it. Love requires intimacy and intimacy just doesn't happy, it's something that results from patterns of behavior and thought. It's one of the reasons opposite sex friendships leave a lot leery, because the line between friend intimacy building and romantic intimacy building can be a blurry one. I know that I became friends with Beefche before I fell in love with her, and while I didn't have brakes in place from being married to try to prevent things going beyond a certain point, the things I did to build friendship intimacy first didn't substantially differ from the things I did to build romantic intimacy later, they were more a continuation of the first set.Edit: I realize it may sound it, but I'm not trying to suggest saying, "Hi!" to a woman is to be avoided because you just might fall in love with her. The main idea is to highlight that love can result from building intimacy and building intimacy is something friends (the closer the more so, people have friends at work which might be better described as acquaintances they get along with) do. Edited November 26, 2011 by Dravin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 I think we can sit here all day and argue about the definitions of romantic love and the nature of attraction. I'm sure bytor's friend has no intentions of abandoning his loving wife and family to run off into the sunset with his coworker. To express my distant 3rd party via the internet without really knowing any of the people involved, I think bytor's friend is attracted to this woman. I'm sure he feels loving feelings toward her. I'm sure that in a parallel dimension where bytor's friend is not married the two could possibly begin a happy relationship depending on the co-worker dating guidelines of the workplace. However, what bytor's friend does NOT have with this woman is the time, energy, and emotion he invested into the relationship with his own wife. Oh, he and this woman might have a friendship in which they are indeed attracted to each other, but it should not be at the same level of the relationship he has with his wife. I saw forgot all the details. I don't care if he truly loves her or thinks he loves her, he claims to already love his wife and that is the relationship to which he already committed. That's what love is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beefche Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 Yes, a series of choices ...a process, but don't people find that they have fallen in love unexpectedly? Maybe they made those decisions without knowing they were making them.When we are married, we don't have the luxury of making those type of decisions without realizing it. Seriously, I truly believe that each married couple should discuss what is right/wrong, for their relationship, when it comes to interactions with members of the opposite sex (including co-workers). Too many times, you hear of people who "didn't mean" to fall in love with someone who is not their spouse. It almost always starts of very innocently. You meet someone, admire him/her, begin confiding in him/her, build a friendship, spend time with him/her, and it slowly builds. What if such a person had made the decision (with the spouse) to never confide in anyone other than a professional counselor, bishop (for spiritual issues) or the spouse? Then, that person is more aware of choices and is more likely (not immune) to not fall in love without realizing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beefche Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 I think we can sit here all day and argue about the definitions of romantic love and the nature of attraction.I'm sure bytor's friend has no intentions of abandoning his loving wife and family to run off into the sunset with his coworker.To express my distant 3rd party via the internet without really knowing any of the people involved, I think bytor's friend is attracted to this woman. I'm sure he feels loving feelings toward her. I'm sure that in a parallel dimension where bytor's friend is not married the two could possibly begin a happy relationship depending on the co-worker dating guidelines of the workplace. However, what bytor's friend does NOT have with this woman is the time, energy, and emotion he invested into the relationship with his own wife. Oh, he and this woman might have a friendship in which they are indeed attracted to each other, but it should not be at the same level of the relationship he has with his wife.I saw forgot all the details. I don't care if he truly loves her or thinks he loves her, he claims to already love his wife and that is the relationship to which he already committed. That's what love is.I agree with you. But bytor is asking about a friend who loves another woman who is not his wife. This friend is "in love' with another woman and wants to know what to do. Do you think it is ok for your husband to love you, be committed to you, and yet be in love with another woman that he sees every day, communicates with on a constant basis? What do you think is going to happen if it continues? I can unequivocally say that such feelings or such a relationship with someone who is not your spouse is not keeping the commandment to cleave to your wife. You may have care and concern for others--in fact, we are commanded--but to call those feelings "being in love" is not appropriate. We all know what being "in love" means--the feelings they elicit. We must be on the watch for things that will destroy marriages. I suggest, being "in love" with another woman--even if no further actions are intended--will eventually destroy a loving marriage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annewandering Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 Can you imagine how his wife would feel if she found out? Betrayed and hurt. He can rationalize all he wants but he needs to get himself away from that other woman as fast as he can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 I agree with you. But bytor is asking about a friend who loves another woman who is not his wife. This friend is "in love' with another woman and wants to know what to do. Do you think it is ok for your husband to love you, be committed to you, and yet be in love with another woman that he sees every day, communicates with on a constant basis? What do you think is going to happen if it continues? I can unequivocally say that such feelings or such a relationship with someone who is not your spouse is not keeping the commandment to cleave to your wife. You may have care and concern for others--in fact, we are commanded--but to call those feelings "being in love" is not appropriate. We all know what being "in love" means--the feelings they elicit. We must be on the watch for things that will destroy marriages. I suggest, being "in love" with another woman--even if no further actions are intended--will eventually destroy a loving marriage.And I entirely agree. I'm not sure where you got the impression I was suggesting this relationship was okay.My point was that his marriage was the most important one and no matter how much he "loves" this other woman he had better that love that marriage more and he needs to put THAT first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annewandering Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 Not only does he need to put his marriage first he needs to put his feelings for the other one to 0 in rankings. Has he given any indication he is going to do anything about his feelings like staying as far away from her as he can get or is he justifying remaining her friend? If he is justifying then he is way down the road to trouble. Does he have reasons for having contact with her? If so he is not putting his marriage first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 I guess in answer to the question of "how" I suppose feelings arise like how they did with the man's wife. You talk with a person, you spend time around her, you get to her know, happy feelings arise. Now, I do think it is possible to love more than one person at the same time. But really, that's not the point here. Don't give mind to "how", he just needs to recognize he is treading on dangerous ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still_Small_Voice Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 If someone is married and spends time with another woman he is attracted to it is very dangerous. The more time he spends with her the more dangerous it can get. This person should pray for wisdom on what he should do if he continually works with a woman he is attracted to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windseeker Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 I think the guilt your buddy is feeling is his conscience warning him to take a step back. I would advise him to heed those warnings. He is playing his family on the edge of a knife by indulging in anything more than "strictly business". The further he can move away emotionally and physically the better. I do believe there must be a gene for cheating because I watch people explore their marriage boundries and see how far over the line they can step flirting and exploring relationships with members of the opposite sex and it appears so pathetic to me. I'm harldy a saint and have my own issues but I guess I've been blessed somehow to be able to recognize and steer clear of these type of dangers. It's interesting to note that if your buddy truly loves this other women then he should want what's best for her, and most would agree that it's not best to be vested in anyway to a married man. Is he just feeding his ego by exploring the feelings between him and this other women? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanh Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 these feelings were uninvited and unintended. So, how does that happen?I would suggest that the "how" is that the interactions are meeting an unfulfilled emotional desire/need of your friend. Whether one is looking for deep connections or not, interactions that create fulfillment easily lead to feelings of love, and a desire to reciprocate.If your friend wasn't looking for these feelings to develop, but they caught him unawares and are irresistible, what is preventing other feelings even deeper and more irresistible from forming - to the point that they overcome him and he slips? As far as advice . . . your friend might consider reading/listening to His Needs, Her Needs - building an affair proof marriage to get insights and ideas on what to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGStacker Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 That's drastic. Might not be that easy to change jobs.More drastic than committing adultery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted November 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 More drastic than committing adultery?No adultery....no physical contact. The co-worker doesn't know.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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