What do these scriptures mean?

[Maygraceabound]

Thanks for the forgiveness, but if I wished to take back my words, I would simply delete them. The words stand as a demonstration of the illogic of what you said.

Trusting and believing what Jesus tells us. That is illogical to you?

[Dravin]

Trusting and believing what Jesus tells us. That is illogical to you?

No, your use of the loaded question is what he was objecting to. It's akin to an LDS asking you why you disregard Jesus' clear teaching about him visiting the Nephites. You aren't disregarding his statement that he has other sheep not of this fold, you just don't take it in the same way LDS do. In this case (going back to the issue of Christ dwelling in us) LDS parse it as talking about the Spirit of Christ rather than the literal substance of his being and as pointed out by a couple people there is theological crosstalk at work.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Dravin

[maiku]

Under the new covenant, you are the temple. Assuming you are born again.

Please reference John 17, Rom 8 and in 1 Cor 3-16 it is very clear. You are the temple. Jesus is in you and will never leave or forsake you. Very cool. We have a great God.

This is only partly correct. You are assuming that the temples used in Old Testament times were replaced with our bodies as temples for receiving God in the New Testament. This is false. Our bodies have always been temples for receiving the Holy Ghost, Old Testament times, NT, and currently too. It wasn't something new that the Lord introduced in the New Testament but rather has been the PRINCIPAL means by God for communicating with man, it's how the ancient prophets learned of Christ and wrote the scriptures like the Bible (see 1 Peter 1:10-11 for unequivocal evidence of this fact).

Secondly, the temples (literal buildings) used in Old Testament times did not simply because obsolete somehow. Jesus, while in Jerusalem, defended the temple and cast out the moneychangers referring to the temple as "my Father's house". He never said that the temples would no longer be used or needed.

[Vort]

What we have here is an apparent failure to communicate. My guess is that Maygraceabound grew up in the same church environment I did, where we responded to the invitation to "Invite Jesus into our hearts." To hear someone say, "Jesus doesn't live in our hearts," causes an instant reaction in us. How can you disregard Jesus???

I know...I know...you did not mean that Jesus does not save, and that God does not walk with us and commune with us in a spiritual sense. BUT...when you say "Jesus does not live in our hearts," that's how it feels to us.

I think PC is probably correct. Consider this small but relevant piece of pure LDS doctrine, from Doctrine and Covenants 130:3:

John 14:23—The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.

Accusing us of denying Jesus because we reject the sectarian idea of God "dwelling in our hearts" is as absurd as asking if you have quit raping your son yet, absent any evidence that you ever did so in the first place.

Which was exactly my point.

And as usual, Dravin's response is spot-on.

[Maygraceabound]

No, your use of the loaded question is what he was objecting to. It's akin to an LDS asking you why you disregard Jesus' clear teaching about him visiting the Nephites. You aren't disregarding his statement that he has other sheep not of this fold, you just don't take it in the same way LDS do. In this case (going back to the issue of Christ dwelling in us) LDS parse it as talking about the Spirit of Christ rather than the literal substance of his being and as pointed out by a couple people there is theological crosstalk at work.

I think the problem lies here. I have the bible. It contains the Word of God. You have another word and this word conflicts with the bible. This is why we have heated discussion. The LDS position is that "Yes, we use the KJV....as long as it is interpreted correctly". Through LDS posts I have learned that you believe the bible has been corrupted by man through the years. For this reason the LDS consider the bible as suspect and secondary to your other scriptures. I believe that the LDS believe that through your modern day prophets the bible can be restored to its original word.

I have a huge problem with this philosophy. First I see the Bible as truth and not corrupted by man. The LDS gospel is so very opposite the gospel presented in Paul's epistles. Paul's gospel is one of Grace. The LDS gospel is of works. You believe in plural Gods and baptism of the dead ( I know Paul mentions this, but his epistle was a sizzling rebuke). I am not sure who Jesus is in your belief. I know that He is my Lord, God and Savior and He is one part of three that make up God (trinity).

If Paul were to write a letter to the LDS church today, would you be apprehensive to open it? Would Paul ask you why you have abandoned the Grace which saved you for another gospel. Who has bewitched you?

Satan comes to steal, kill and destroy. But what has he come to steal, kill and destroy? God's Word. Jesus warned us of false prophets and contrary teaching because it is of Satan who has come to steal, kill and destroy God's word.

When you disregard the Word of God in the bible you are yielding to satan. This is why I am so passionate regarding God's word. I stand with God's word in the bible. I don't pick and choose for when we start down this road it always leads to destruction.

Because we are so opposite in view and have little common ground, I feel that my continued participation on this forum would only bring strife and that is not my intent. This is your forum and you have been so gracious for letting me in. God bless all of you, He loves you so very much. He even gave His Son for you. In the name of Christ Jesus, Peace

[Guest Ivo_G]

[OFFTOPIC]

You have another word and this word conflicts with the bible...I am not sure who Jesus is in your belief...Who has bewitched you?...Satan comes to steal, kill and destroy. But what has he come to steal, kill and destroy? God's Word. Jesus warned us of false prophets and contrary teaching because it is of Satan who has come to steal, kill and destroy God's word.

When you disregard the Word of God in the bible you are yielding to satan. This is why I am so passionate regarding God's word. I stand with God's word in the bible. I don't pick and choose for when we start down this road it always leads to destruction.

Because we are so opposite in view and have little common ground...

lol...i won't bother addressing your points (as that has been done many times before by much more knowledgable forum members than myself) - i just wanted to say how unexpectedly funny your post appeared to me...i'm a "fresh out of the oven" convert (got baptised on Saturday) and have been raised as an Orthodox Christian (as in Greek Orthodox) and the main claim of the Orthodox Church (as reflected in the name) is that it is the only church that has preserved all the ancient Christian teachings and practices in their original form...

i don't know what church you belong to in RL but it's probably not the Orthodox Church which means that whatever your church is you'll most probably be regarded as a member of a cult not only in Bulgaria (where i'm from) but in most other Orthodox countries as well - the Catholics still kinda get a free pass (although they too are regarded as heretics) but if you are a protestant or evangelical you are screwed you are usually considered not just heretics but a dangerous cult (as in Branch Davidians, Aum Shinrikyo etc.)

i find it funny how if you were in this part of the world you'd have to deal with the same kind of rethoric you are using in your post - and when i say the same i mean exactly the same...as in "You have another word and this word conflicts with the bible", "I am not sure who Jesus is in your belief", "Who has bewitched you?" and so on and so on...

i'm sorry for the off-topic but i just find human nature immensely amusing some times - i've personally been a witness how members of protestant/evangelical/whatever churches get accused of being a cult and they get so outraged and can't believe somebody dares say something like that etc. and then they turn around (the very same people on the very same forum) and start accusing some other church of being a cult or something

[/OFFTOPIC]

Edited December 1, 2011 by Ivo_G

[pam]

For this reason the LDS consider the bible as suspect and secondary to your other scriptures.

I'm so glad that someone who is not LDS has pointed this out to me. I had no idea in all my years of being a member that we feel the Bible is secondary to our other scriptures.

[Dravin]

I'm so glad that someone who is not LDS has pointed this out to me. I had no idea in all my years of being a member that we feel the Bible is secondary to our other scriptures.

You've been disregarding the Word of God too, don't forget that.

[beefche]

Maygraceabound, I'm trying to not be snarky in my reply. I have to admit that it's difficult to do because I'm so tired of other people telling me what I believe and how I don't believe in Jesus, etc.

First, please don't assume that you know me or any other Mormon on this board or in life. Obviously, you have not actually spent time on the board or in life with us to see how we are devoted to living the Gospel of Jesus Christ as best we can.

I find it hard to believe that you actually think that we are bewitched. By whom? Satan? So living a moral life, following God's commands to the best of our ability, and serving other people is a work of Satan? Does that mean you do the works of Satan as well? I'm going to assume you live a moral life, follow God's commands to the best of your ability and serve others. By any scripture you want to read, those are works of God.

Finally, I would never disparage your experiences with God as you have done to us. I may not agree with the doctrine of your church or beliefs, but I would never say that the spiritual experiences you have had are wrong, less than mine, or from Satan. Sincere prayers to God are answered whether you are Mormon, Assembly of God, Catholic, Muslim, or a tree hugger.

Please don't take that attitude with someone you meet in life. It isn't a very good witness of Jesus to mock another for their beliefs. Think we are wrong, think we are misguided, disagree with us, but don't mock us. And for that matter, don't do it to someone you feel is wrong even if they aren't Mormon. Atheists, gays, Muslims, others try to live their life according to their beliefs and don't deserve to be treated as someone who is satanic, evil, or less worthy of respect and care.

Actually, I hope you would continue to frequent the board and this time actually read the posts instead of trying to prove us wrong all the time. Go to the advice forum--look at how we advise people to follow God. Read how we respond to sincere questions regarding our beliefs. Read how we can respect another's beliefs that are different from our own. See the good in others instead of finding fault and error.

[durante_angelo]

I think the problem lies here. I have the bible. It contains the Word of God.

We have the Bible too. It's awesome!

You have another word and this word conflicts with the bible. This is why we have heated discussion.

Oh... i only knew we had an open canon. Conflicting scriptures are not welcome...

The LDS position is that "Yes, we use the KJV....as long as it is interpreted correctly".

Yea, i hate language errors too. Luckily, we have lots of bible versions today to use!

Through LDS posts I have learned that you believe the bible has been corrupted by man through the years. For this reason the LDS consider the bible as suspect and secondary to your other scriptures.

But... it's still readable?

don't diss The Bible, it's unreplaceable...

I have a huge problem with this philosophy. First I see the Bible as truth and not corrupted by man.

Well, you can't blame those guys who made errors. The Bible is not God himself and therefore not perfect.

The LDS gospel is so very opposite the gospel presented in Paul's epistles. Paul's gospel is one of Grace. The LDS gospel is of works.

The gospel is not of Works neither of Grace, it's about both. Faith without Works is dead, you know?

You believe in plural Gods

I prefer one true God than plural Gods.

and baptism of the dead ( I know Paul mentions this, but his epistle was a sizzling rebuke).

Exatly! that's why I like those verses!

I am not sure who Jesus is in your belief. I know that He is my Lord, God and Savior and He is one part of three that make up God.

And that's exatly what God is!

If Paul were to write a letter to the LDS church today, would you be apprehensive to open it? Would Paul ask you why you have abandoned the Grace which saved you for another gospel. Who has bewitched you?

Nah, i think he would say "Good job guys!"

Satan comes to steal, kill and destroy. But what has he come to steal, kill and destroy? God's Word. Jesus warned us of false prophets and contrary teaching because it is of Satan who has come to steal, kill and destroy God's word.

Yea, we also talk about that. We should be careful, there's lots false prophets out there.

When you disregard the Word of God in the bible you are yielding to satan. This is why I am so passionate regarding God's word. I stand with God's word in the bible. I don't pick and choose for when we start down this road it always leads to destruction.

And that's why we should be careful not to be led astray. Many people wants us out from christianity, and it won't be pretty out there.

Because we are so opposite in view and have little common ground, I feel that my continued participation on this forum would only bring strife and that is not my intent. This is your forum and you have been so gracious for letting me in.

A discussion doesn't need to lead to strifes, it's what you want it to be.

And you're welcome. We need to be like Christ and show the attributes of the Prince of Peace.

God bless all of you, He loves you so very much. He even gave His Son for you. In the name of Christ Jesus, Peace

God bless you too. God loves all people even if they don't deserve it. Remember, even the smallest can be great in God's eyes.

If you want to know more about us, visit Mormon.org.

[beefche]

[OFFTOPIC]

lol...i won't bother addressing your points (as that has been done many times before by much more knowledgable forum members than myself) - i just wanted to say how unexpectedly funny your post appeared to me...i'm a "fresh out of the oven" convert (got baptised on Saturday) and have been raised as an Orthodox Christian (as in Greek Orthodox) and the main claim of the Orthodox Church (as reflected in the name) is that it is the only church that has preserved all the ancient Christian teachings and practices in their original form...

i don't know what church you belong to in RL but it's probably not the Orthodox Church which means that whatever your church is you'll most probably be regarded as a member of a cult not only in Bulgaria (where i'm from) but in most other Orthodox countries as well - the Catholics still kinda get a free pass (although they too are regarded as heretics) but if you are a protestant or evangelical you are screwed you are usually considered not just heretics but a dangerous cult (as in Branch Davidians, Aum Shinrikyo etc.)

i find it funny how if you were in this part of the world you'd have to deal with the same kind of rethoric you are using in your post - and when i say the same i mean exactly the same...as in "You have another word and this word conflicts with the bible", "I am not sure who Jesus is in your belief", "Who has bewitched you?" and so on and so on...

i'm sorry for the off-topic but i just find human nature immensely amusing some times - i've personally been a witness how members of protestant/evangelical/whatever churches get accused of being a cult and they get so outraged and can't believe somebody dares say something like that etc. and then they turn around (the very same people on the very same forum) and start accusing some other church of being a cult or something

[/OFFTOPIC]

When I was on my mission in Bulgaria, there was a lot of persecution by the people and police there. I remember my first month in the country, there was an article in the paper about the Mormon cult who was going to have a meeting to sacrifice (kill) some of their members to their god. They named all the missionaries in my district except me! I was so disappointed to not see my name in print. Plus, I was mad at my companion for not telling me about this sacrificial meeting we were to attend--I wasn't sure what to wear!

[bytor2112]

Golly....if we view the Bible as secondary.....why oh why has the church mistakenly been teaching only the Bible in Sunday School this year..New Testament and unless my memory is mistaken....Old Testament last year. Darn tricky Mormons.....

[prisonchaplain]

Because we are so opposite in view and have little common ground, I feel that my continued participation on this forum would only bring strife and that is not my intent. . . .

Um...:::cough:::...I think she's gone.

[FunkyTown]

Um...:::cough:::...I think she's gone.

"She" was a dude, PC!

[Vort]

"She" was a dude, PC!

With a name like "May Grace"?

[Connie]

I think the problem lies here. I have the bible. It contains the Word of God. You have another word and this word conflicts with the bible. This is why we have heated discussion. The LDS position is that "Yes, we use the KJV....as long as it is interpreted correctly". Through LDS posts I have learned that you believe the bible has been corrupted by man through the years. For this reason the LDS consider the bible as suspect and secondary to your other scriptures. I believe that the LDS believe that through your modern day prophets the bible can be restored to its original word.

I have a huge problem with this philosophy. First I see the Bible as truth and not corrupted by man. The LDS gospel is so very opposite the gospel presented in Paul's epistles. Paul's gospel is one of Grace. The LDS gospel is of works. You believe in plural Gods and baptism of the dead ( I know Paul mentions this, but his epistle was a sizzling rebuke). I am not sure who Jesus is in your belief. I know that He is my Lord, God and Savior and He is one part of three that make up God (trinity).

If Paul were to write a letter to the LDS church today, would you be apprehensive to open it? Would Paul ask you why you have abandoned the Grace which saved you for another gospel. Who has bewitched you?

Satan comes to steal, kill and destroy. But what has he come to steal, kill and destroy? God's Word. Jesus warned us of false prophets and contrary teaching because it is of Satan who has come to steal, kill and destroy God's word.

When you disregard the Word of God in the bible you are yielding to satan. This is why I am so passionate regarding God's word. I stand with God's word in the bible. I don't pick and choose for when we start down this road it always leads to destruction.

Because we are so opposite in view and have little common ground, I feel that my continued participation on this forum would only bring strife and that is not my intent. This is your forum and you have been so gracious for letting me in. God bless all of you, He loves you so very much. He even gave His Son for you. In the name of Christ Jesus, Peace

It's a shame you are only willing to focus on our differences. If you would open your mind a little and actually listen to what we believe (instead of telling us what we believe, which is largely wrong), you might be surprised at how much we have in common.

Speaking of disregarding God's word, how long has it been since you read James 2? Why would you yield to satan by ignoring the importance of works as stated in the word of God?

[prisonchaplain]

"She" was a dude, PC!

I guess I did not follow his posts close enough...I'm all for grace...hey, my daughter's named Grace...but, as a name it's kinda...you know...feminine.

[maiku]

That's just it, I don't get where these people get off telling us we don't believe or accept the Grace of Christ. We DO!! We call it the Atonement of Christ.

We understand full well that it's grace that saves us. We also believe that we need to ACCEPT that grace in our lives by our faithful obedience. In other words, we must strive (emphasis on strive) to live God's commandments. Doing so will build up our faith in Him, the same faith necessary to receive His grace.

[volgadon]

When I was on my mission in Bulgaria, there was a lot of persecution by the people and police there. I remember my first month in the country, there was an article in the paper about the Mormon cult who was going to have a meeting to sacrifice (kill) some of their members to their god. They named all the missionaries in my district except me! I was so disappointed to not see my name in print. Plus, I was mad at my companion for not telling me about this sacrificial meeting we were to attend--I wasn't sure what to wear!

And you wonder why you weren't invited? What a question! Anything in white, red, or black would work.

All kidding aside, when I served my mission in Russia a former member had taken a branch president to court, testifying to all manner of old slander, such as the church tracking down apostates and murdering them. I've since lost the copy, but during the trial one of the larger newspapers in the area ran an expose, which included instructions on how to avoid being hypnotised by Mormon missionaries. Avert your gaze when you see them on the street!

[volgadon]

and baptism of the dead ( I know Paul mentions this, but his epistle was a sizzling rebuke)

A sizzling rebuke? Where?

The most that can be said is that Paul moderately disapproved and used the 3rd person plural to distance himself from th practicionars. I'm not sure how likely that is seeing how Paul used baptism for the dead as one of his key arguments in proving the veracity of a bodily resurrection.

It would be like someone trying to convince the Southern Baptist Convention of reincarnation. If there is no reincarnation then why do they [new-agers] meditate? The answer from the listeners would probably be along the lines of so what, who cares what cultists do.

I think one could argue that baptsim for the dead was a limited practicein Paul's day, or that a particular group of Christians made it their focus, but that Paul delivered a sizzling rebuke? THe evidence doesn't support that reading.

Shame that you have decided to leave.