Doctrine confusion

[scholasticspastic]

I'm doing my very best to accept the doctrine of the LDS church and become a member. Unfortunately, I come from an atheist background and I work as a scientist, so I tend to deal poorly with logical inconsistency.

Must I believe in a literal Garden of Eden and a literal Adam and Eve to be LDS? Because, being a biologist, that would be a deal-breaker.

[NeuroTypical]

Things you don't have to assume, in order to believe in a literal Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve:

* The world was created in 168 hours.

* Evolution is wrong.

* There were no other humanoids on earth at the same time.

Different ways I've heard Genesis interpreted:

* It's symbolic/allegorical.

* "7 days" refers to seven creative periods, that could have lasted millions of years.

* Adam and Eve were the first humanoids God had dealings with, the first two who received a soul. Before that, humanoids were animals only.

There's lot of flexibility in belief here. You will run into Mormons who believe different things about Genesis. Some think I'm full of it.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[scholasticspastic]

So is there some resource somewhere where I might find a list of core beliefs which I must accept to be properly LDS? I haven't been able to find anyone so far who can direct me to such a resource.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Try the thirteen articles of faith.

Articles of Faith | Mormon.org

But guess what -- there is a process for accepting concepts as Doctrine the church has used over the years -- and it means approval by the first presidency, followed by ratification in general meetings by the Church membership. All of this is included in our Standard Works, which is the Bible, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and Book of Mormon. There are various declarations there that are also hard doctrine. The scriptures represent he core source of our doctrines.

Also, guess what -- a lot of the scriptures are open to interpretation, so there are some things you will never nail down across the Church membership.

And guess what else -- even though not doctrine, there are a lot of deeply entrenched cultural beliefs that people THINK are doctrine, which are not.

The best thing is to learn what hte missionaries are teaching, which is pretty much embodied in the book Gospel Principles. The core stuff is there for fast and easier digestion.

[Forget-Me-Not]

Looking for an article I read a few years ago about LDS scientists. This isn't it, but thought I'd include it while I search more...

LDS scientist learns by study and by faith | Deseret News

[Forget-Me-Not]

Still looking, but this is an interesting tid-bit...

Saints and Scientists

[NeuroTypical]

So is there some resource somewhere where I might find a list of core beliefs which I must accept to be properly LDS?

A question is on my mind. Why do you want to be LDS?

[scholasticspastic]

A question is on my mind. Why do you want to be LDS?

I've fallen in love with an LDS woman and would like to think someday we could get married. Converting from atheism to Mormonism doesn't represent any special loss of spiritual belief as atheists don't have spiritual beliefs. I love her enough that I don't want her to ever need to feel as if she's given anything up- especially something as doctrinally important as being sealed in the temple- to be with me.

[bytebear]

I think you need to learn to appreciate spirituality and faith. Social science has shown that religious people are happier, more content, and less fearful than the unbeliever. Your journey should be about understanding why that is, and how to make it work in your life. Then from there, learn how to communicate with God, and how God can influence your life. Truly it is a phenomenal concept, and transcends logic and reason, and yet, become logical and reasonable to the believer.

Simply put, start with believing in God, then build on top of that faith. Read Alma 32 in the Book of Mormon.

[Forget-Me-Not]

I've fallen in love with an LDS woman and would like to think someday we could get married. Converting from atheism to Mormonism doesn't represent any special loss of spiritual belief as atheists don't have spiritual beliefs. I love her enough that I don't want her to ever need to feel as if she's given anything up- especially something as doctrinally important as being sealed in the temple- to be with me.

It would not be the first time, nor the last, when the love of a woman has caused a man to want to explore her faith. I applaud you for wanting to learn more to see if you it's something you, yourself, could embrace. That is something we all must do at some point anyway, whether we've been raised with a religious faith or not.

I would say you need not have much concern with the science issue. As I see it (though I'm no scientist by any stretch of the imagination) people of science must be open minded (though we often tend to think of them as closed) so I'm sure there is a way you will be able to resolve the issue of science and faith.

Ultimately, when a time comes where one is able to seek and gain a witness from the Spirit, he is better able to take what he knows, along what he knows he doesn't know, and have patience with both and live by his faith in the meantime.

Still looking for that article. I remember almost nothing but the topic so that's not helping, lol. Likely someone else here read it though and maybe they'll have better luck than I am... :)

[scholasticspastic]

I would say you need not have much concern with the science issue. As I see it (though I'm no scientist by any stretch of the imagination) people of science must be open minded (though we often tend to think of them as closed) so I'm sure there is a way you will be able to resolve the issue of science and faith.

I'm happy that you see it this way (scientists = open minded, I mean). A lot of people like to say the opposite and I have to admit it's been starting to chafe.

Still looking for that article. I remember almost nothing but the topic so that's not helping, lol. Likely someone else here read it though and maybe they'll have better luck than I am... :)

My LDS cousin found these for me. Are either of them what you're looking for?:

Articles of Faith | Mormon.org

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/What_is_Mormon_Doctrine.pdf

Edited to add: The articles of faith link may have originated in this thread and I've no trouble giving credit where due. I'm pursuing a similar conversation with some family members on Facebook and may become confused from time to time.

Edited December 9, 2011 by scholasticspastic

[Mamas_Girl]

There are some areas in the church where science is more accepted than others. Members of university campus wards tend to be the most liberal and accepting; while members of small rural branches can be a bit more conservative, and a little more resistant to the sciences that challenge their belief. But even in the smaller rural branches you can usually find members who see overwhelming evidence for evolution, or the Big Bang, etc.

I used to be a literalist, believing everything in the Bible without a doubt. Now I believe a lot of what the Bible teaches are more stories of faith and obedience than a science text book. The more I've been looking into archealogy of the Bible, Darwin, and other things, the more I'm learning that there is room for both religion (based on faith) and science (based on evidence of the senses).

There used to be a great e-list that has either disbanded or changed servers called Eyring-L. It was a list for LDS who believed in science. It was a great group with great people, and we discussed numerous things from the Big Bang theory, Darwin, the Word of Wisdom, and so much more. I know one of the fellas passed away, and the list sort of followed suit (no offense meant).

I wish we had something like that again. Anyone know if the e-list still exists on another server or anything?

Edited December 9, 2011 by Mamas_Girl

[Forget-Me-Not]

I'm happy that you see it this way (scientists = open minded, I mean). A lot of people like to say the opposite and I have to admit it's been starting to chafe.

My LDS cousin found these for me. Are either of them what you're looking for?:

Articles of Faith | Mormon.org

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/What_is_Mormon_Doctrine.pdf

Edited to add: The articles of faith link may have originated in this thread and I've no trouble giving credit where due. I'm pursuing a similar conversation with some family members on Facebook and may become confused from time to time.

I'm pleased you appreciate my scientists = open minded perspective. As I see it, being open minded is essential to the field.

No, the article I'm thinking of featured of a number of LDS scientists and talked of their faith in relation to their work. I can't remember anything more and don't remember if it was a new paper article, an article from the Church magazine (the Ensign) or some other publication.

[scholasticspastic]

I'm pleased you appreciate my scientists = open minded perspective. As I see it, being open minded is essential to the field.

I would say that being a scientist is neither about being open-minded nor closed-minded. It's more about investigating whether a claim follows from its premises and trying to find out whether a set of premises is consistent with observable reality. Since religious claims often rely upon premises which are not dependent upon observable reality, a scientist cannot logically accept or reject those claims by referring to observable reality.

There are some religious claims which, by virtue of making statements about the structure of the universe or how components of the universe function, do become accessible to scientific investigation. A literal interpretation of the events described in various versions of Genesis would represent such a set of claims. Unfortunately, I would have to reject a literal interpretation of the Genesis story simply because we must delve into the fantastically absurd in order to make it line up with the world we find ourselves in. I am, however, perfectly willing to accept it as an allegorical or metaphorical account since this divorces Genesis from the pesky tendency of observation to disagree with its claims. I've been very relieved that accepting Genesis as literally true isn't required to be a member of the LDS church, since I've become rather attached to things like Plate Tectonics, the Theory of Evolution, Chemistry, and Physics. As a Biologist, literal creation would be a non-starter for me.

No, the article I'm thinking of featured of a number of LDS scientists and talked of their faith in relation to their work. I can't remember anything more and don't remember if it was a new paper article, an article from the Church magazine (the Ensign) or some other publication.

This sounds like it would be something more along the lines of testimonial stuff. I'm comfortable with the idea that hearing other people's testimonies can help strengthen my own. However, since I'm currently absent a testimony of my own, I'm not sure it would be particularly useful at this point in my effort to come to faith.

So if you can find it, great! But don't knock yourself out.

I think part of my trouble has been that my nuclear family (including myself) all left the LDS church when I was a child and my extended family seems almost entirely comprised of science-illiterate biblical literalists. So in addition to the fact that I'm trying to come to faith in order to be with a woman instead of in response to a feeling of spiritual yearning- which I actually don't feel any of; I'm also fighting an up-hill battle due to the fact that my pig-headed, literalist family members have poisoned the well of faith for me. A lot of my issues probably stem from emotional baggage from having had to deal with them for so much of my life.

I do know that being LDS does not require that one become a pig-headed, science-illiterate biblical literalist. I understand on an intellectual level that I shouldn't let my poor impressions of how my family deals with science color my understanding of the LDS faith in general. My girlfriend is intelligent, gracious, and generally exemplifies everything I would look for in a good person in addition to being a very spiritual woman, so she should probably be more than enough of a counter-example to my family. Unfortunately, I'm an emotional as well as an intellectual being and getting over my emotional baggage is proving difficult.

I would just like to say that I've appreciated the help I've gotten here. If you can put up with me, I expect I'll become a regular contributor.

[Forget-Me-Not]

Well we all have enough baggage, no doubt, to understand those kinds of obstacles. One of mine was in having the kind of father who was very forceful and violent, the kind to very much be feared, so one of my obstacles has been in learning to believe in God as a loving Heavenly Father. I can understand it mentally, but emotionally it's been a life long struggle. That's one of my particular pieces of baggage as it relates to my faith. :)

[Jamie123]

I'm doing my very best to accept the doctrine of the LDS church and become a member. Unfortunately, I come from an atheist background and I work as a scientist, so I tend to deal poorly with logical inconsistency.

Must I believe in a literal Garden of Eden and a literal Adam and Eve to be LDS? Because, being a biologist, that would be a deal-breaker.

Great to meet you Scholasticplastic :) But did you know that's Audrey Hepburn's picture you've defaced? How dare you profane the sacred image of the woman I love!?

Seriously though, I'd suggest you concentrate on deciding what you believe is true (based on prayer and evidence) rather than finding out what you must believe in order to be accepted by a particular bunch of people. (Though I can see that your situation with this lady puts you under a lot of pressure to be accepted.) I've made that sort of mistake myself many times: peer-pressure based "belief" usually ends in tears.

For what it's worth I'm also a scientist (well actually a computer scientist, though I have an amateur interest in all the sciences). And no one's kidding me that the Biblical creation story is literal fact.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Jamie123

[Forget-Me-Not]

Say, found this, it might be helpful. Now I have to go back and read it, lol.

The Gospel and the Scientific View: How Earth Came to Be - Ensign Sept. 1980 - ensign

[Dravin]

I've fallen in love with an LDS woman and would like to think someday we could get married. Converting from atheism to Mormonism doesn't represent any special loss of spiritual belief as atheists don't have spiritual beliefs. I love her enough that I don't want her to ever need to feel as if she's given anything up- especially something as doctrinally important as being sealed in the temple- to be with me.

The reason to convert is you received a testimony that things are true as opposed to a social conversion. A social 'conversion' may not be what you have in mind (and if it isn't just tell me off) but before you are baptized you will be interviewed and asked the following questions:

1. Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world?

2. Do you believe the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through the

Prophet Joseph Smith? Do you believe that [current Church President] is a prophet of God?

What does this mean to you?

3. What does it mean to you to repent? Do you feel that you have repented of your past

transgressions?

4. Have you ever committed a serious crime? If so, are you now on probation or parole? Have you ever participated in an abortion? a homosexual relationship?

5. You have been taught that membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints includes living gospel standards. What do you understand of the following standards? Are you willing to obey them?

a. The law of chastity, which prohibits any sexual relationship outside the bonds of a legal

marriage between a man and a woman.

b. The law of tithing.

c. The Word of Wisdom.

d. The Sabbath day, including partaking of the sacrament weekly and rendering service to

fellow members.

6. When you are baptized, you covenant with God that you are willing to take upon yourself the name of Christ and keep His commandments throughout your life. Are you ready to make this covenant and strive to be faithful to it?

Please don't sacrifice your integrity for someone else. Answer the questions honestly. If for instance you don't believe Joseph Smith restored the Gospel, or more fundamentally that God exists and that Jesus is the Christ don't say you do because you think it will please this woman you've fallen in love with. If you do come to the place/point where you do believe those things, and I hope you do, then go for it.

[Gwen]

Personally I would say if there is anything you "must" believe in to become a member of the church I would say it is the doctrine of revelation. That god does speak to to individuals, and he does speak to the world and church as a whole (through a prophet).

Why revelation?

Without it you can not answer any of the above questions in the baptism interview. To know there is a god you must receive that through revelation, science won't prove it for you. To accept Joseph Smith or any other prophet (biblical or modern) you must accept the doctrine of revelation. All the rest of the questions deal with commandments/rules, to be able to embrace them you must have a belief in god and his prophets.

Also without a firm understanding of revelation and how it works in your life you will never be able to fully successfully deal with the trials of life. Much of the church doctrines revolve around prayer. Take your problems to the lord and seek answers. "Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves" kind of thinking. There are some commandments and guidelines to follow but in the end you have to figure out what it is god wants you to do. That requires personal revelation.

Good luck in your journey. Make sure you can be honest in any commitment to the church before making a commitment to a your girlfriend. Marriage is hard enough as it is, finding out you got married on the foundation of a lie will make it near impossible.

[Blackmarch]

I'm doing my very best to accept the doctrine of the LDS church and become a member. Unfortunately, I come from an atheist background and I work as a scientist, so I tend to deal poorly with logical inconsistency.

Must I believe in a literal Garden of Eden and a literal Adam and Eve to be LDS? Because, being a biologist, that would be a deal-breaker.

Not necessarily. However we must believe in Christ and come unto him for salvation (which ideally come from some sort of revelation given to us). And considering the extreme lack of information regarding Adam and eve one could come up with quite a few different theories that fit the accounts of them. Edited December 9, 2011 by Blackmarch

[NeuroTypical]

Yeah, what Dravin said.

I say it often: The only good reason to be a Mormon, is you believe God wants you to be one.

Getting baptized so a mormon will marry you, an athiest, could be a horrible train wreck waiting to happen. People weren't meant to live lies - it eats at them.

You ask about a list of core beliefs? Sort of the biggie, is belief in a benevolent omniscient God, who sent His son to earth to atone for our sins. Without that core belief in the core of the gospel, anything else you figure you can go along with in our church is sort of beside the point.

For the sake of any future children you may have - I urge you to proceed with the utmost caution and concern for their eventual wellbeing.

[JudoMinja]

Hello scholastic!

I second Dravin's post, and wanted to add that I have a very strong belief in the LDS faith and also consider myself to be something of a scientist, so being a scientist does not automatically mean you cannot be LDS. There are actually a great number of members who follow scientific pursuits, fields, and careers, and I have personally found that my scientific studies have only helped strengthen my faith in the LDS church and gospel.

So- make sure that if you decide to get baptised you do so because this is something you actually believe to be true. You need to start with the basics and work your way up. The most important question to ask yourself right now is- Do you believe there is a God?

If you feel that your science background creates such a conflict that you do not even believe there is a God, then you are not going to be ready to accept the LDS faith as your own. Resolve whatever issues you have there first then work your way into step two- Christianity. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came to earth to redeem mankind of their sins?

If you can get that far, then comes the step that leads you into the LDS faith- Do you believe that Joseph Smith was visited by God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, and that he translated the Book of Mormon which is a second testament of Christ's ministry?

If you can answer "Yes" to those three questions, then you have sufficient belief to consider yourself a "Mormon". The rest is all details and commitments- the specific beliefs and strength of which will vary from person to person. Should you believe these things and want to get baptised, you will be asked the questions Dravin listed in a baptismal interview and you will be asked to follow a certain "code of conduct" by keeping the commandments, obeying the law of chastity and word of wisdom, etc. But the most important thing is that you actually believe the teachings to be true. If you do not believe it, then there is no reason to join.

[TheMightyQuinn]

If you don't mind me asking, what is your scientific background?

I've been surprised at the number of LDS people I find in engineering and science, especially with advanced degrees (I have a doctorate in EE).

The one thing I learned in my research, is you must be skeptical of claims (especially your own) but also realize that nothing is impossible, since we are routinely accomplishing what was considered impossible only a decade earlier. Most of these "impossible" things became possible because we let go of our assumptions of how they must be implemented. We thought we had enough knowledge to determine whether something is possible, but in truth we know next to nothing. One of the greatest joys of being a Dad is that I routinely amaze my children doing things they think aren't possible simply because their sphere of knowledge is so limited. This is how I see our relationship with God, who knows vastly more than we do.

The point of this rambling is to tell you your scientific background can be a strength in searching for faith. Many beliefs we held in science and religion have turned out to be based on our own assumptions of how the universe or God works, and these assumptions were wrong. So in reading scripture let go of any assumption that only a certain reading is correct, and see scripture as a message God wants you to hear (particularly the Book of Mormon which was brought to us in this modern era.) There are many things in scripture I don't understand, as there are many things in science I do not understand, but that doesn't make them incorrect or invalid.

[scholasticspastic]

Great to meet you Scholasticplastic :) But did you know that's Audrey Hepburn's picture you've defaced? How dare you profane the sacred image of the woman I love!?

In my defense, Audrey was defaced with my face by a woman in the UK that I met on another forum. It cracks me up, so I use it.

Seriously though, I'd suggest you concentrate on deciding what you believe is true (based on prayer and evidence) rather than finding out what you must believe in order to be accepted by a particular bunch of people. (Though I can see that your situation with this lady puts you under a lot of pressure to be accepted.) I've made that sort of mistake myself many times: peer-pressure based "belief" usually ends in tears.

For what it's worth I'm also a scientist (well actually a computer scientist, though I have an amateur interest in all the sciences). And no one's kidding me that the Biblical creation story is literal fact.

I'm a Biologist. Due to the vagaries of my personal situation, including the fact that I was an older, non-traditional student, I didn't go beyond a BS. So on paper I haven't really that much stake in science and oughtn't be so attached to it as a method. But in practice I've been enthusiastic about the scientific method since I was a child. I've read more science books for recreation than I have for academic or professional reasons.

I've been struggling with the very different ways words like "true" and "knowledge" and "evidence" are used in religious circles as opposed to the way I might feel comfortable using them in academic discourse. They mean very different things in science.

By the standards of evidence I employ as a scientist, I can never know that scripture is true, or that there is a God. Because the sort of experience which is taken as evidence in religious circles isn't admissible as any sort of evidence in scientific thinking. Feelings are far too subjective and difficult to communicate or calibrate for them to be used in science. So from that perspective, if I wish to be consistent in how I apply standards for evidence, I cannot ever be more than agnostic about God in this life.

This is why atheism was more comfortable for me. I could apply one standard of evidence universally and not have to worry about falling into logical fallacies or special pleading or playing favorites or excessive bias. Because adjusting my standard of evidence so that one religion was true would require that all religions be true- even the ones which were mutually exclusive.

Now I find myself in love. Love does not lend itself to logical consideration and I have never been so deeply in love. It may seem on its face a very stupid reason to consider becoming a member of a faith, but doing so is the only way I can come up with to balance the opposed factors I'm trying to juggle right now. I cannot want to spend any part of the rest of my life without this woman. I cannot feel good about asking her to compromise her values for me. I cannot be true to myself by walking away from her or by considering life without her or allowing her to diminish her convictions. So from the perspective of love I cannot be true to myself without becoming LDS- despite the logical difficulties parsing all that might entail. From the other end, however, I cannot be true to myself by lying about.... well, anything. I've never been comfortable with dishonesty. So I desperately hope I can come to faith. Otherwise, in some way, in my current circumstances, I cannot be true to myself.

[Mamas_Girl]

I cannot ever be more than agnostic about God in this life... [Love] may seem on its face a very stupid reason to consider becoming a member of a faith, but doing so is the only way I can come up with to balance the opposed factors I'm trying to juggle right now.

One of two things must happen. First you gain a testimony of the reality of God, or second you accept that you're atheist and hope she'll do the same. You cannot be atheist and LDS at the same time.

FWIW, I'm LDS and married to an atheist, and have been for over 20 years. We agree to disagree on the topic of religion (more particularly "faith"). My husband's been through the missionary discussions twice, and attended church (all three sessions) for over a year with me, but he never got the witness of the Spirit necessary for him to believe that God is real, and without that well... baptism is just a lie, temple marriage is a mockery, etc. You can be baptised and hope that you'll gain a testimony over time, but that's risky. And to be baptised you must as Dravin said, tell the interviewer that you believe that God is our Heavenly Father, and that Jesus is his Son, and the redeemer of the world. That may be a bit difficult for you.

My husband tries his best to support me in my belief (though it's not easy for him, since it means I have faith in an unseen being for whom there is no scientific evidence), and he encourages me to participate in church socials and such. Is there any chance that your lady would be willing to marry you even if you remain atheist? Are the two of you willing to take a chance that maybe if you're married, a few years down the road you'll gain the necessary testimony? But what if you don't?

It's not just converting (being baptized), but she'll expect you to attend church with her, she'll expect you to be ordained to the priesthood, and then you'll be expected to give priesthood blessings. And of course she'll expect you to go to the temple with her too, to be sealed for time and all eternity, and make covenants with a God you do not believe in. So I would encourage you to think seriously about this committment, because it's more than just saying you accept God, it's an eternal committment.