Glory in War

[james12]

A recent thread has brought up a couple of thoughts that spin around in my mind from time to time about war. There are three statements that have caused me to examine my own thoughts on the subject. Let me share these three and then I'll ask a few questions.

We are a warlike people, easily distracted from our assignment of preparing for the coming of the Lord. When enemies rise up, we commit vast resources to the fabrication of gods of stone and steel—ships, planes, missiles, fortifications—and depend on them for protection and deliverance. When threatened, we become antienemy instead of pro-kingdom of God; we train a man in the art of war and call him a patriot, thus, in the manner of Satan’s counterfeit of true patriotism, perverting the Savior’s teaching:

“Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven.” (Matt. 5:44–45.)

(Spencer Kimball, Ensign; June 1976)

Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong; but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD! …Now the Egyptians are men, and not God; and their horses flesh, and not spirit. When the LORD shall stretch out his hand, both he that helpeth shall fall, and he that is holpen shall fall down, and they all shall fail together. (Isaiah 31:1,3)

Today civilized nations are sitting on a mountain of explosives, accumulated in defiance of Christ's teachings. Let the heat of hatred, suspicion, and greed become a little more intense and there will be such an international explosion as will greatly retard if not forcibly drive from the midst of mankind the hoped-for peace heralded by the heavenly hosts when the Son of Man was born. (Pathways To Happiness, David O. McKay p. 29)

Here are my questions:

Do we see ourselves as a warlike people?

Do we turn to our guns and planes instead of God?

Do we glory in war?

These questions could probably be considered on a global, national, or individual level.

[Guest]

Do we see ourselves as a warlike people?

Do we turn to our guns and planes instead of God?

Do we glory in war?

These questions could probably be considered on a global, national, or individual level.

Easy. On all levels.

1.) No

2.) No

3.) No

[NeuroTypical]

Heh - I disagree strongly!

1.) No

2.) Sometimes

3.) Sometimes

(Ok, maybe not all that strongly.)

[Guest]

Heh - I disagree strongly!

2.) Sometimes

(Ok, maybe not all that strongly.)

You mean, we don't dedicate our actions and shout "To Allah"... er... God Almighty... before we drop our bombs?

Okay, sure, I'll agree with you on that.

But, we don't send troops to war unless such an action is within the bounds of the United States Constitution - a rule of law founded on Christian principles. And even the current "formerly known as War on Terror" war, the underlying principle is always - like all wars before it - promoting a democratic society - a principle held by your forefathers based on Christian principles.

[pam]

These questions could probably be considered on a global, national, or individual level.

Because of this sentence I would have to answer differently:

Global or national:

a. Sometimes (depending upon the country)

b. Sometimes

c. Sometimes

Individually (me personally)

a. no

b. no

c. no

[Guest]

Global or national:

a. Sometimes (depending upon the country)

I'm pretty sure the question was addressed to Americans, Pam.

[pam]

I'm pretty sure the question was addressed to Americans, Pam.

Okay as usual, you have to correct me. He did say global in one of his sentences.

[Vort]

Here are my questions:

Do we see ourselves as a warlike people?

Do we turn to our guns and planes instead of God?

Do we glory in war?

These questions could probably be considered on a global, national, or individual level.

I see myself as a member of two primary social groups (as opposed to my interpersonal roles of husband, father, son, friend, etc.): A member of the kingdom of God, e.g. a 'Mormon', and an American.

As a Mormon, my answers are:

• Definitely not.
• Not usually, but we as Mormons definitely do have a tendency to, well, 'support' God's words and ways by leaning upon the arm of flesh.
• Not in war, no. But sometimes, it seems we are much too happy (perhaps 'smug' is a better word) when others suffer (what we characterize as) the consequences of their sin. There is almost a Schadenfreude operating. I'm not saying this is the common response, but I do perceive it from time to time, even on this list.

As an American, my answers are:

• Somewhat, yes, and moreso than I think we did in my parents' or grandparents' generation.
• Yes.
• Increasingly so, yes.

[pam]

I'm pretty sure the question was addressed to Americans, Pam.

Thank you for once again correcting me. So I will delete my comments since obviously I can't have an opinion based on how I interpreted the question.

[Guest]

IAs an American, my answers are:

• Somewhat, yes, and moreso than I think we did in my parents' or grandparents' generation.
• Yes.
• Increasingly so, yes.

1.) Vort - in your grandparents' time, America took over the Philippines and made it a colony. It wasn't until your parents' time that they granted the Philippines independence. I don't see America colonizing anybody today.

2.) You don't go to war without the US Constitution. Unless American principles have changed so much that the US Constitution is not in line with Christian principles anymore, a Yes answer to this is questionable.

3.) Increasingly so is questionable here too. See #1.

[Vort]

1.) Vort - in your grandparents' time, America took over the Philippines and made it a colony. It wasn't until your parents' time that they granted the Philippines independence. I don't see America colonizing anybody today.

The question is about how we see ourselves. Hearing my grandparents talk, it was clear that they saw America as a shining beacon of civilization to the world, offering refuge from suffering and war instead of causing it. Whether or not this is accurate, that's how they saw it.

2.) You don't go to war without the US Constitution. Unless American principles have changed so much that the US Constitution is not in line with Christian principles anymore, a Yes answer to this is questionable.

The question was whether we turned to guns and planes in place of turning to God. It is not a question of Constitutional precedent. My judgment stands.

3.) Increasingly so is questionable here too. See #1.

Not having lived in the first 62% of the 20th century, I can only give my perceptions based on my understanding of what those who were there say. My sense is that during my lifetime, Americans have taken to their nation's role of "superpower" and adopted something of a might-makes-right attitude.

The three questions james asks are likely to be answerable only on an individual opinion basis. I've given my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

[Dravin]

I'm pretty sure the question was addressed to Americans, Pam.

Then why are you answering? My understanding is you are a resident alien, you aren't a citizen.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Dravin

[Guest gopecon]

1) Warlike people, no. I think of Imperial Japan, Soviet Russia, etc. when I think of a country being warlike. Expanding territory and dictatorial control through battle. We haven't taken oil by force in the Middle East. We helped to rebuild Japan and Germany after WWII. Korea and Vietnam were fought in an attempt to preserve freedom, not to gain territory or resources. We are a large, powerful, and freedom loving nation that others look to when freedom is threatened, but I don't think that we often fight for the sake of power or bloodlust.

2) Turning to guns instead of God...as a nation I'd say that this does happen. Individually I pray for protection for my family, but I do have the means to protect them if violence is threatened.

3) Do we glory in war? As a nation this does happen some. We see brutal video games that do this, as well as movies. There are stories and videos that make the rounds that celebrate "getting" someone. Ironically the military does not seem to do this in excess (given their role in war). Their lives are on the line, so they fully recognize the seriousness of war. It seems like most (not all) of the heroes that we hear about are those who sacrifice to save lives more than those who have a high body count.

[john doe]

I'm pretty sure the question was addressed to Americans, Pam.

Can you point out where the OP states that?

A recent thread has brought up a couple of thoughts that spin around in my mind from time to time about war. There are three statements that have caused me to examine my own thoughts on the subject. Let me share these three and then I'll ask a few questions.

Here are my questions:

Do we see ourselves as a warlike people?

Do we turn to our guns and planes instead of God?

Do we glory in war?

These questions could probably be considered on a global, national, or individual level.

Globally

1) Yes. For thousands of years men have been making war on each other.

2) Most of the time.

3) Most of the time

Nationally

1) I think we see ourselves as peace-loving warriors.

2) More than we should, yes.

3) Sometimes. We are very good at it, and sometimes the fact that we are good at it makes us give glory to it.

Individually

1) I'm not a warrior, but I could be if required.

2) Sometimes, especially in the heat of the moment.

3) No, but I do honor those who have died fighting for the freedoms I enjoy.

[Vort]

Thank you for once again correcting me. So I will delete my comments since obviously I can't have an opinion based on how I interpreted the question.

I wish you hadn't deleted your comments.

[Dravin]

Here are my questions:

Do we see ourselves as a warlike people?

Do we turn to our guns and planes instead of God?

Do we glory in war?

These questions could probably be considered on a global, national, or individual level.

Me:

• No.
• No.
• Do I glory in war? No. Do I get a little pumped up watching war movies or playing a video game (be it FPS, RPG, RTS, or TBS)? Most certainly.

America:

• I don't think Americans see themselves as warlike.
• I think so, but I think unless the country is ready to turn to a greater degree of righteousness there isn't a way around it. And I can't really expect non-LDS to believe in an expectation of protection founded on the Book of Mormon.
• I think there is a line between glorifying war and glorifying soldiers, and I think we straddle it. It's hard to pin down to Americans as a whole though just because of how diverse a group you are asking about.

Globally: The diverseness of the group in question pretty much makes it impossible to answer this in any satisfying manner.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Dravin

[Bini]

Do we see ourselves as a warlike people?

Do we turn to our guns and planes instead of God?

Do we glory in war?

These questions could probably be considered on a global, national, or individual level.

From a national level:

1) Don't think so.

2) Yes, sometimes.

3) Yes, sometimes.

[Guest]

Can you point out where the OP states that?

From the first quote James12 stated and from this:

Do we see ourselves

coupled with this:

These questions could probably be considered on a global, national, or individual level.

with James12 listed under Location: United States.

Then why are you answering? My understanding is you are a resident alien, you aren't a citizen.

I answered as a Filipino giving my impression of America. Like, I don't say "our forefathers". I say "your forefathers", etc.

If I was answering for the Philippines... that would be very funny. Philippines waging war... Filipinos glorifying war... yeah, that can make lots of money at the comedy club.

Thank you for once again correcting me. So I will delete my comments since obviously I can't have an opinion based on how I interpreted the question.

once again?

Maybe my English is failing me... is this intended as a sarcastic comment?

[john doe]

From the first quote James12 stated and from this:

Do we see ourselves

coupled with this:

These questions could probably be considered on a global, national, or individual level.

with James12 listed under Location: United States.

I answered as a Filipino giving my impression of America. Like, I don't say "our forefathers". I say "your forefathers", etc.

If I was answering for the Philippines... that would be very funny. Philippines waging war... Filipinos glorifying war... yeah, that can make lots of money at the comedy club.

Interesting double standard you've got going on there. I don't see where he said it could be answered on an American level, rather he said it could be on a national level. I read it as being available to answer from any nation. Don't the Brits here deserve a voice? What about the French?

[Bini]

Interesting double standard you've got going on there. I don't see where he said it could be answered on an American level, rather he said it could be on a national level. I read it as being available to answer from any nation. Don't the Brits here deserve a voice? What about the French?

^ That's how I understood it, as well.

Anatess, you don't give yourself enough credit! Your English is excellent and certainly isn't failing you. I think we can chalk this up as individual interpretation.

[estradling75]

once again?

Maybe my English is failing me... is this intended as a sarcastic comment?

I think it is safe to say no it was not...Because a sarcastic comment would not have been followed through on...

[james12]

Sorry for the confusion regarding the final statement. I did not intend to limit the comments to the US only. Pam please re-post your comments. Sounds like there are a few differing opinions on this issue. I'll comment fully when I have more time.

[Guest]

Okay, then the answer is very complicated if we go at it nation by nation.

For example:

If you ask a Filipino...

How do you answer - is the Filipino people war mongers?

I mean - they have ZERO resources to fight a war. How can you determine if they are war mongers? Even the 3 quotes provided can't apply on a national/global level as a Filipino.

If you ask - would they then go for their guns before their God... IF they are given the resources?

Answer: nobody knows. They're mostly Catholics... and the post Vatican II Catholics are anti-war as demonstrated in the People's Revolution of 1986 where nuns lined up the streets to act as buffers between the military and the revolutionaries. But, if they become a world power like America... who knows?

But, there is one fact - Filipinos don't turn their backs on war if it aligns with their Christian principles. Islamic insurgents have used southern Philippines for their jihad training ground. It was not that long ago that the Filipinos finally killed the top head honchos of the Abu Sayaff cels.

How about if you ask a Japanese?

Well, the answer is very complicated indeed. God-believers are a minority in Japan!

How about if you ask the entire world?

There are only 2 billion Christians in a worldwide population of over 6 billion.

There are 1.5 billion Islam and 15 million Jews.

The rest have different Gods if they have any.

How do you answer that question to a world where less than half believe in our God?

[Dravin]

I answered as a Filipino giving my impression of America. Like, I don't say "our forefathers". I say "your forefathers", etc.

That you're giving a Filipino impression of America doesn't make you American, and thus, according to you, the question wouldn't have been addressed to you. Particularly considering your response to John. Edited December 14, 2011 by Dravin

[Guest]

That you're giving a Filipino impression of America doesn't make you American, and thus, according to you, the question wouldn't have been addressed to you.

Okay, I see now where the confusion lies. And yes, it's my failing English as usual.

What I meant was it was "addressed to Americans" as in ourselves=Americans, not saying that only Americans are supposed to answer. Addressed to Americans is probably not the phrase to use... I'm thinking and thinking and I don't know the proper replacement phrase.