Interactions with Narcissistic People

[Guest mormonmusic]

Just wondered what your thoughts are on this issue.

I work very closely with someone who has outright admitted he is narcissistic, judgmental, and he proves it to myself and others who work closely with him daily. He routinely makes insensitive comments about people's physical appearance and reminds others about his $50 an hour job, his big house, his knock-out girlfriend, and his considerable talent in a certain hobby for which he has been recognized. Around others who have very little, he makes a point of referring to his wealth, his stable job, and other things they don't have. In short, if they don't have something that he does, he flaunts it before them. If someone has a trait that is enviable in some way, he often tries to find something in his life which parallels that activity that puts him at least in the same league.

He is a peer by the way -- there is no supervisory relationship involved. Oh, and by the way, he's an active Mormon.

Based on your experience and worldview of Christlike character, how do you (or would you) interact with such a person, particularly when they cross boundaries with you, or with others in your presence who you can see are unsettled by this repeated kind of behavior? Do you speak up? Do you suffer in silence? What do you see as your role in these situations where you work very closely with someone like this in a high stakes environment, regularly?

[sister_in_faith]

Music, has it ever dawned on you that maybe this person is just way better than you are, and you should be greatful that you even get to spend time around them? totally kidding.

Well, the first thing that strikes me is that this person has ADMITTED that they know they do these things, so you have half the battle won. Seriously.

I have a pretty light hearted personality, and I joke around with people a lot. I would probably get a routine down where whenever they started 'doing it' I would walk over and smack their hand and tell them to knock it off. And when I had a little time alone with them, have a serious mormon heart to heart about the problem and tell them how I feel about it, and give them my best arguments for changing the way they act. It is up to them to take the advice or not. But if you can pass off telling them to stop in a joking manner it allows you to do it every time and get it off your chest without it being a personal attack. At least that is what I would try.

[sister_in_faith]

Oh, another thing, if they are actually saying things that hurt other people in your presence, you may want to address that with them too. Tell them how uncomfortable it makes you feel. And then if they do it again, speak up and tell the offended person that you appologize for your friend, or say, "that wasn't very nice!" and see what they say.

[Guest]

Anything you say at all feeds the narcissism. If everyone he talks to could just continue as if he hadn't said anything insensitive/offensive at all, that would be best. But if you call him on the carpet, he sees it as a recognition of his power or importance in his own eyes. If you humiliate him, he'll peg you as an enemy and spend the next forever trying to make you pay. Really the only effective thing with narcissists, if you can't avoid them, is to ignore or disregard the "bad" things they do as much as possible.

Narcissists suck.

[annewandering]

I dont think they hear criticism anyway. What would be important to me is knowing their target just let it go off their shoulders.

I tend to just make a joking comment that makes it seem like they were just kidding.

If it doesnt work then just state what they said was rude and move on.

[Backroads]

I'd be the type of just give him the ol' smile-and-nod, agree with him when it's reasonable, yet avoid agreement and instead do whatever I felt like that when it's not reasonable.

[Guest mormonmusic]

The other day I challenged him on one thing he said. He was really going at someone about their weight. He commented on how they had gained in the last year he had known them, and was judgmental with them, asking them what they eat. The person was obviously uncomfortable, and made a couple comments to gently stop the conversation, since they had only shared a health problem that made them unable to lift something unusually heavy. They had not invited a conversation about their weight.

He continued at them telling them to lose weight, and when they said they had joined a weight loss center, he said "not" to go to a weight loss center as they were considering, but they needed to not eat pasta anymore, and to exercise. And he kept on with more observations about how their weight has changed in the last 10 months or so...

Finally, I asked him "Have you ever had to lose weight?".

Proudly, he replied "No, I have to eat more than I want to in order to maintain a healthy body weight!". (Now, you can guess how it made the obese person in the room feel, to hear that).

I replied "well, if you haven't walked the walk, you aren't really in a position to give advice -- everyone is different -- exercise is easy to accomplish for some, and not for others."

He replied "But I've helped two other people lose 30 pounds".

I answered "well, even so, this can be a difficult for many people, and I'm not convinced we should be pursing it in this depth since the advice was unsolicited".

He clammed up after that. Perhaps I made an enemy, I don't know, but I saw relief on the face of the person who was subject to his narcissism.

Edited December 18, 2011 by mormonmusic

[Windseeker]

I'm surprised that many on this board react as I would. I like Eowyn, don't feed the the narcissism. "Pride cometh before the fall". They tend to burn themselves out. It's uncomforable for me to be around people like this. It's uncomfortable to watch them be so arrogant and it's also uncomfortable for me to watch them get put in their place. I actually pity people like this to a degree.

On a similar note, thru the years I've started to believe that for anybody to be truly successfull in this life they have to be a bit blind or in other words to lack sensitivity to others. I believe that to succeed in business or politics one has to be almost hyper self focused and over confident to a degree.

Studies like this back up the experience I've had with seeing jerks and narcissists get promoted over and over.

Mean People Earn More, Study Finds - WSJ.com

[Windseeker]

By the way I like your response MM. I would be cheering you on if I was there and even give you hearty pat on the back, but I tend to avoid such confrontations myself. I do notice I've become more outspoken as I get older, but it's not my nature and I tend to lose control once I stand up to someone like that.

[sister_in_faith]

I've never personally seen a truly narcissictic person 'burn out' because they were ignored. They usually take it to another level because they want to be heard. I have ignored a narcissictic parent for 31 years and they are still going strong. But that is just my experience.

Now if you are talking about someone who is just a bully, perhaps ignoring them would work.

[Guest]

I don't mean ignoring so much as not letting them see you sweat. They're going for the reaction, the drama, the power. I think MM did fine sticking up for the other person. For the narcissist in my life, she strives to look morally superior to everyone, so asking her in public why she's making a person feel bad would be effective (though she'd spend years punishing me, literally). Maybe it's the same for this guy. He wants to look superior and he wasn't gaining the room's approval or achieving his goal of being superior or intimidating, or getting her to thank him profusely for his "advice", so he backed off. The gal in my life would at this point try to discredit me to other people in the family and do passive-aggressive things to try and make me sorry. She's married to another (milder) narcissist who enables her behavior and sings her praises to everyone who will listen, so that doesn't help.

If this is a guy in your workplace and he's doing this garbage to people, I'd say it's time to start filing complaints with superiors. He's creating a hostile work environment. The narcissistic husband I spoke of can't hold down a job because he doesn't know how to behave in a work environment, and gets himself in trouble with superiors that he doesn't think he needs to listen to. He hasn't gotten promotions, he and his wife have dragged their kids all over the country, homeless half the time, going through about a job every year, because neither of them can behave like civilized people. But it's always someone else's fault.

[Guest]

sister, are you a member of or have you done much reading at Mothers with narcissistic personality disorder - Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers ? My narcissist isn't my mom, but I've learned a lot about narcissism and how to deal with people with NPD there.

[sister_in_faith]

That's interesting! I'll check it out! Thanks.

[Windseeker]

I've never personally seen a truly narcissictic person 'burn out' because they were ignored. They usually take it to another level because they want to be heard. I have ignored a narcissictic parent for 31 years and they are still going strong. But that is just my experience.

Now if you are talking about someone who is just a bully, perhaps ignoring them would work.

Yeah, I don't mean burn out as in stop being nacissist, but like Eowyn states they eventually cross the wrong person(could be another narcissist :)) and they lose their job or their marriage crumbles or whatever. It hard to watch, like watching a train wreck.

I worked for Microsoft 8 years as a developer in Windows. There was a young guy there who was a complete narcissist. He made fun of me because I drove a crappy car, and took advantage of every opportunity to put others down in order to make himself look good. There was a guy whom everyone respected, a retired cop, who was a great manager there. One day the young narcissist was spouting off at the mouth in front of this manager and said he loved interviewing older applicants knowing he would never hire them, just because he liked watching them squirm. He was so caught up in himself he forgot that the guy he was speaking to, was an older guy. Me and my friend looked at each other and couldn't believe it. This manager lit him up. It was embarrassing. He could have been fired, probably should have been fired. Anyway, for me being around these people is like watching a wreck in slow motion. I'm just not comfortable with it.

The reason I personally don't say anything is it never changes the behavior. It might bring some temporary comfort, but I view these people as weak and pathetic and sometimes getting on them feels like tripping a blind man even though I'm aware of the pain they cause others.

I remember talking to my mission president about problems I was having. He told me, you think you've got problems??, I have a couple Elders who can't open their mouth without offending people. Now how are they going to present the gospel with the spirit when they are always saying things that drive the spirit away.

Anway...I feel bad for them in a way.

[Guest mormonmusic]

This guy had a failed temple marriage. It was all his wife's fault, according to him. He wanted the SP to hold a council on her, and they didn't. That made him angry...f-word every other word when he explained it to me...another characteristics of narcissists -- they don't handle direct affronts to them very well.

In his case, I don't think he learned anything from marriage failure even though that could be a wake-up call.

[Guest mirancs8]

The other day I challenged him on one thing he said. He was really going at someone about their weight. He commented on how they had gained in the last year he had known them, and was judgmental with them, asking them what they eat. The person was obviously uncomfortable, and made a couple comments to gently stop the conversation, since they had only shared a health problem that made them unable to lift something unusually heavy. They had not invited a conversation about their weight.

He continued at them telling them to lose weight, and when they said they had joined a weight loss center, he said "not" to go to a weight loss center as they were considering, but they needed to not eat pasta anymore, and to exercise. And he kept on with more observations about how their weight has changed in the last 10 months or so...

Finally, I asked him "Have you ever had to lose weight?".

Proudly, he replied "No, I have to eat more than I want to in order to maintain a healthy body weight!". (Now, you can guess how it made the obese person in the room feel, to hear that).

I replied "well, if you haven't walked the walk, you aren't really in a position to give advice -- everyone is different -- exercise is easy to accomplish for some, and not for others."

He replied "But I've helped two other people lose 30 pounds".

I answered "well, even so, this can be a difficult for many people, and I'm not convinced we should be pursing it in this depth since the advice was unsolicited".

He clammed up after that. Perhaps I made an enemy, I don't know, but I saw relief on the face of the person who was subject to his narcissism.

Someone needs to seriously shut this guys trap! He seems like a real *%@!*#!!!! Who does he think he is to talk about someones imagine.

Trust me it will all come back to him. In a few years you'll have to crane lift him into the office. Then you can all gather around him and give him diet advice.

What makes it difficult is your at work. If this was off work territory I'd give him my 2 cents and tell him to go stick his advice/opinion where the sun don't shine... at work can't do that unfortunately.

In all seriousness that has to get on your last nerve. I've never dealt with that in a work place thank goodness.

[Vort]

This guy had a failed temple marriage. It was all his wife's fault, according to him. He wanted the SP to hold a council on her, and they didn't. That made him angry...f-word every other word when he explained it to me...another characteristics of narcissists -- they don't handle direct affronts to them very well.

In his case, I don't think he learned anything from marriage failure even though that could be a wake-up call.

I am a little bit surprised at the harsh responses to this guy's actions. He is pitiable, a failure as a husband and as a friend. You think he can't tell that no one can stand him? He can tell, but his ego or personality disorder or whatever you want to call it won't let him recognize that he's the cause, so he goes on inventing reason after reason why no one likes him. After all, what's not to like? He's showing everyone how intelligent and perceptive he is, and he's giving them great advice to boot!

I don't like dealing with such people any more than anyone else likes it, but I feel sorry for them, at least in the abstract. And I think that all of us suffer from the disease they harbor, to some extent at least. I hope God pities me in my foolishness rather than reviling me.

[Guest]

Try joining a Mom's Club or some such...

Something about moms with their little cute babies wake up the inner narcissists in them... and suddenly everybody is raising their kids wrong and the only way to raise a kid is their way and how their little cuties are the perfect babies who can't do wrong. It would be really annoying until I realize I do it too.

Best way I found to deal with these moms is just to understand they're just that - narcissists - and not to take anything they say seriously. (Yes, that included me - the narcissist).

If he's that way to everybody, then everybody should know that's just the way he is. You can't control what he does, but you can control how you react to him. Getting offended by anything he says is a choice you make.

[Dove]

Hello, MormonMusic;

I've been reading your posts and some of the others'~ There are some things that I think of as I read them....

First, he seems really out of place in criticizing others about their appearance/weight/whatever in the work environment......this seems to me to be, at the least, harassment and perhaps at the worst, discrimination against others. I would suggest going to a supervisor with the people he has been doing this to and letting the supervisor know it is not appreciated or welcomed. I believe he will be more likely to listen when it has to do with job security.

Secondly, in all fairness, his personal life/religious affiliation/marital status really isn't your business as a co-worker and not yours to judge as a christian, is it? It sounds like you are unkindly judging him for doing the same thing to others. I'm sorry, I'm not wanting to be rude....In suggesting a better way to deal with it, I am reminded of what the Book of Mormon says concerning giving/serving to others. Basically, it says not to deny the beggar because we would judge him/her as unworthy; but, to only deny the beggar when we do not have the resources to give to him/her. What I'm trying to say is it's not ours to judge others in their aberrant behavior; but, it is ours to determine if that behavior is something we can deal with or not. After reporting him to the supervisor, or letting him know what he is saying is offensive, or however you choose to deal with his inappropriate comments, maybe the best thing to do is to not have contact with him inasmuch as it is possible in the office environment.

Best of wishes in dealing with this

Dove

[Guest mormonmusic]

I invested a few minutes trying to figure out if I did the right thing with a quick search on narcissism. There was a site on how to deal with narcissists. Apparently, if you cross them, they tend to lash back as they have a hard time with people who cut off their self-aggrandizement.

They need what is called "Narcissistic Supply" which is the care and feeding of their self-esteem through the kinds of behaviors I shared earlier. Also, they indicate what others have said here in this thread -- that it's best not to respond negatively to their reaching for supply. They will often retaliate and cause strife.

Also, others should have confidence in themself in spite of how the Narcissistic may naturally make others feel.

If they start interfering with your own mental health, then you have to consider ending the relationship, depending if this is possible (probably not in a work context). I can see this advice particularly relevant in a domestic relationship though.

Also, they say to recognize the person is actually really hurting inside, wounded, often due to strong criticism coupled with excessive praising from parents, as well as indulgent parents.

I think it would have been better simply to try to change the subject and spare the obese person's feelings that way. Perhaps even invite them out of the room for some innocuous task to end the conversation. And then show some kind of compassionate act to the obese person afterwards that affirms them.

My daughter did this to a girl who was being bullied at school. After the bullying, she bought her flowers and affirmed their friendship without even broaching the subject of the bullying. The girl was nearly in tears with the love shown. Not that flowers would have worked in this case, but the increase in love and show of support. Based on what I read about this topic, I wouldn't rule out an escalation from the narcissistic person based on what I did, which felt right in the moment.

And so going forward, it will be an exercise in neutral or null responses, finding practical reasons to exit the conversation, etcetera and try to diffuse the situation rather than inadvertently encouraging more narcissism.

Edited December 21, 2011 by mormonmusic

[mrmarklin]

He only makes $50 per hour????

How does he live on so little???? I couldn't support my lifestyle on that.................but it's another topic.

The above being said, I totally ignore such people. At my age, I filter them totally out of my life by not being around them at all. Frankly if he challenged me on anything it's pretty easy for me to tell him to #(^! off. And you should too.

Quit worrying about other people and your life will be easier.

[RescueMom]

Narcissist hardly ever burn out...they just find new toasters...and that is all people are to them...things.

Having dealt with a boyfriend that was actually diagnosed as having Narcissistic Personality Disorder, they hardly ever admit they are narcissistic, they don't see themselves that way. They usually are highly manipulative and can manipulate people into thinking they way they want by using tactics unlike any normal person would even imagine. I have found once the perfect mask falls off and you see the real them they are far more difficult to deal with. Things that used to make my NPD boyfriend mad..the way I walked, the way my voice sounded, the way I broke up with him when I found out he had a wife and kids (he said he would commit suicide which wasn't really a suicide attempt but an emotional blackmail attempt). They are emotional vampires that will drain person after person to get attention and the biggest hurt you can inflict on them is to act like they don't exist, ever.

I hope that someday they get help but I have a feeling most of it will be in the next lifetime. The good thing is the actual percentage of real Narcissists in society is very low. They also tend to make the largest population of serial killers...along with borderline personality disordered people (the two disorders tend to be a lot alike)

[Guest mormonmusic]

But I don't think the motive here is to hurt the person.

I was primarily concerned with the hurt I saw he was inflicting on the other person in the room. I think the goal is to try to:

a) not feed the narcissism or they will do it even more, as once they apparently tap into a Narcissistic Supply, they feed off it regularly

b) do what you can to help the others who are subject to it if necessary

c) prevent an escalation so you get the job done, whatever the group is working on.

The idea is to get the job done, not punish the narcissist.

[JudoMinja]

My brother is a diagnosed narcissist, and one thing I can tell you is that thinking about the needs or feelings of others just isn't something their brains are wired to do. It's always about me, me, me. But it's not because they don't care about other people- it's because they are so self-absorbed that it is too difficult for them to put others into the equation of their lives or consider how the things they do or say will affect those around them. Why are they so self-absorbed? It's the classic school yard bully example. Because deep down inside, they are really hurting, depressed, and scared.

Now I'm sure not all narcissists are exactly like my brother, but I know my brother very well, and I know that he doesn't really think highly of himself at all. He thinks that he is worthless. He hates himself and hates his life, so to compensate for his low self image he finds things to blame outside of himself to try and overcome how crappy he feels. He ends up being very rude and demeaning, and he often sounds very womanizing and/or racist because he blames his problems on the "obvious" social discrepencies in the world and the economy and the minorities. If you disagree with the way he sees the world, that just makes it harder for him and he lashes out because if he's wrong about all the outside sources then he has to accept that the real problem is himself and it reinforces the feeling of worthlessness.

Trying to help my brother overcome this twisted mindset would be a waste of my time, because he just isn't going to see it until he's ready to see it- which may be never. And that is something common with all narcissists. You can't fix them. All you can really do is learn to cope with their behavior and protect yourself from mistreatment. To do that, you have to set up boundaries and limitations. You cannot leave yourself open to them or you will get used up until you are dry.

I don't think the way you handled your situation was really all that bad. You may end up dealing with some kind of backlash, depending on how much you hurt this guy's self image by standing up for your coworker, but what you did sounds very similar to things I've done when my brother has said something I've found out of place, and he usually just ends up avoiding me for awhile after that- until he needs to ask me a favor again or he gets over it and we have another family get together. Understanding where ther narcissist is coming from can be helpful, because you can kind of translate the things we say or the way they react to things into what is really going on in their heads just like when you know why the bully on the playground does what he/she does, you can figure out the best way to react to it. But you also don't want to get too emotionally involved, because you will end up getting sucked dry if you can't keep your distance and maintain limitations and boundaries.

[Suzie]

Interactions with narcissistic people are very easy for me: NO INTERACTION!