Public prayer

[Guest]

I just want to share some experiences I have as a Catholic in the Philippines.

In some areas of the Philippines, the week before Easter is a week spent in public prayer. There is even a long list of people volunteering to be Jesus Christ or one of the 2 criminals to be nailed to the cross - literally - as a sacrifice they make in their prayer offerings. Some people who can't wait for their turn on the list decide to take a whip made of banana fibers rolled in glue and then rolled on broken glass and they whack their backs with it while going on a prayer procession around town. These are, of course, for the die-hards. The regular folks just go and kneel by the door of the big Cathedral and walk on their knees while praying until they reach the altar. The regular Sunday mass is, of course, spent alternately standing, sitting, kneeling at certain parts of the mass.

My family prayed the rosary every single day - on our knees as a family. 5 sets of 1 Our Father, 10 Hail Mary's and a Glory Be. And if I am bad, I get punished by kneeling infront of the altar in my mom's bedroom with my arms outstretched on either side - Grimm's Fairy Tales hardbound book on one hand, Andersen's Fairy Tales hardbound book on the other hand praying for contrition. If I don't repent, I get Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn added to the books...

I don't know how I would feel seeing people scattered around the Celestial Room kneeling in prayer... it was one of the things about Catholicism that I don't feel particularly fond of.

Yes, I kneel in prayer when I feel absolutely needy. But usually, my most reverent prayers to God have been in the quiet moments in my daily life... some of them spent in the Celestial Room. Kneeling not necessary.

[annewandering]

Thank you, Anatess. That is what I was searching my memory for. I think that for many it would seem to be like the old traditions in the Catholic Church and some of the Protestant Churches. We have done many things in the church to distance ourselves from that kind of ritual. I would be afraid of that happening from people who tend to overdo things. It's too bad too because our instinct to kneel in reverence is key to many peoples natural way of worship.

If we could look into that room and see saints kneeling in worship to God it would be a mighty sight yet our cultures have taken that spiritual outpouring and made it into a less than spiritual thing: an opportunity for ego preening and/or masochism.

It really is sad.

[beefche]

Why would we not receive answers there? Or anywhere in the temple for that matter? The veil is so thin there that if we have the eyes to see it would be into the next world. I know that many eyes have seen and be touched from that world in the temple.

Outside the temple so many ways that satan can use to distract us and keep us from hearing what God wants us to know. If there is anywhere on earth that he is prevented from blinding us it has to be in the temple.

The temple is there to bless ones who have gone on but it is also for us to be blessed and not just for doing ordinances. When ever I went to the temple I could know my son might be walking there next to me. I know he has been there with us. What a blessing that is to me. If my son can be there then how much stronger would the connection between us and the Holy Spirit be?

We may not be able to kneel there but we can pray there and receive answers, perhaps better than anywhere on earth. If the prophet and his apostles go for important prayers and answers it makes sense that we can as well.

I have never prayed in a closet. Mostly I pray where ever I am with my eyes wide open. My 'closet' is my mind, soul and body. My own temple. Praying in/at a temple is very good way to pray.

Frankly I find it very difficult to understand how a person does not feel the spirit in the temple.

As far as clocks go, isnt it true that the clocks are for the workers and are not obvious to the patrons so they are not distracted by clock watching?

Who said one doesn't receive answers in the temple? Who said one doesn't feel the Spirit in the temple? Is the Celestial Room the only place on earth where the veil is the thinnest? I hope not, since that would negate any spiritual experience I and others have had outside the temple.

[Dravin]

Who said one doesn't receive answers in the temple? Who said one doesn't feel the Spirit in the temple? Is the Celestial Room the only place on earth where the veil is the thinnest? I hope not, since that would negate any spiritual experience I and others have had outside the temple.

I think she's making reference to Vort's comments. But you are correct, he didn't say that one doesn't receive revelation in the temple, just that it was a side effect of the primary purpose for being there.

[annewandering]

Actually several posters made reference to that very thing. I found that deeply disturbing to be honest.

I am not sure what the primary purpose of us going to the temple is. I have given it some thought. If its to do temple work, mostly, then wouldnt it be easier to do it in the millennium? After all then people could just tell us who they belong to.

Why do we do genealogy or temple work? The answer is easy. We do it for ourselves. We do it so we can be closer to God. By doing work for other people we learn charity, or the perfect love of Christ. We do it to reaffirm our own commitments to God and to show our love for Him.

Yes we do it for the ordinances to be done as well. Those people will be ready and available to help during the millennium when most of the work will be done. Its a practical way for it to get going and organized.

[Dravin]

Actually several posters made reference to that very thing.

Quote, link, or provide a post # please.

[annewandering]

Why? If you dont believe me then prove it.

[beefche]

No, you prove it. I've reviewed the thread and I'm not seeing it.

[Dravin]

Why? If you dont believe me then prove it.

I'll take that as a 'you got nothing'.

Edited December 19, 2011 by Dravin

[annewandering]

naww take it that I just dont feel like going back and finding every little thing. I go back all the time if people post things I missed on other threads and expect the same here.

[Dravin]

naww take it that I just dont feel like going back and finding every little thing. I go back all the time if people post things I missed on other threads and expect the same here.

I can't go back and spot your lack of reading comprehension as applied to other posts. It's not that I think I missed something and I'm to lazy to go back and spot it. It's because I think you are suffering from a lack of reading comprehension. I asked you to reference the posts because I suspect you can't reference the posts containing what you are attributing to them because I suspect they do not exist.

Edited December 19, 2011 by Dravin

[annewandering]

lol funny. oh well maybe later if i get bored.

[beefche]

Then quit making accusations against people based on things that aren't there.

If you get BORED enough to do so, then maybe you can back up your accusations.

[james12]

Sister_in_Faith,

Individual prayer is a private communion between you and the Lord. You as daughter and he as Father. The Lord has indicated how private a personal prayer should be when he said, "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly." (Matt 6:6) Shut your door, enter your closet, and pray in secret.

As you know the Celestial room is a public location. There are individuals entering and leaving the room regularly. Since this is clearly a public location the question is why would you kneel in prayer (a very obvious action) in such a public place?

I would like to consider one of your statements and contrast it with one of the Savior's statement on prayer. You said,

I can't believe that there aren't others out there who have been so moved by coming into the Celestial room, and being in the temple that you were literally driven to your knees in prayer and worship.

The Savior said,

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues that they may be seen of men. (Matt 6:5)

- Posture: Your above statement (among others) imply that the Lord would be pleased if we fell down and began a very sacred personal act in a public location. Would he want this? Wouldn't this prompt others to look at us? In the above scripture note how the hypocrites were "standing" in the synagogue and on street corners. I'm not sure if the Savior intended to specifically comment on the posture but it should be considered.

- Location: In your statement you speak of being "moved by coming to the Celestial room". Yes we may feel to offer prayers in public but we keep them as private as possible. In fact, the Savior specifically commends prayer in private closets to public synagogues even though the synagogue is a special place.

- Motivation: You say, "I can't believe there aren't others who have been so moved". Are you comparing your desire to pray with that of others? Do we need to be "seen of men" in order to pray to our God?

[annewandering]

Seen of men? Have you never felt the spirit so strongly you felt you were a place alone? Is it possible, just possible, that a person might feel the need to fall to their knees in reverence with no thought to anyone around them? Is it so unbelievable?

[Vort]

Vort I have to heartily disagree with you on this. We have been told many times that we should go the temple to pray and find answers to our problems.

Here are just a couple of quotes from articles off LDS.ORG...

Nothing you quote contradicts my assertions. You appear to have misunderstood and miscast what I wrote. Let me copy & paste, emphasizing to point out what you may have missed:

Our purpose in the temple is to perform work for our beloved dead. Inspiration and such that we receive in the temple is purely a side effect of our service there, like receiving inspiration on the stake onion farm. And contrary to popular lore, the celestial room is not an extension of the celestial kingdom; it is a room in the temple, made to represent the idea of celestial life, just as the (first) endowment room represents the garden of Eden and is not actually a little piece of it.

The celestial room is not designed as a place to go to speak with God. That's what your closet is for. If you receive guidance and revelation there, great! But you should not be going there in order to receive revelation. And kneeling in prayer in the celestial room is an open display of a private act that, to me, borders on vulgar.

The part in red may be a bit of an overstatement on my part; people have many purposes in attending the temple, and I don't know that going there in hopes of receiving revelation is improper per se. But I stand by the rest of what I wrote. The celestial room is not the celestial kingdom, and was not designed as a place for people to pray and receive revelation. That people may sometimes pray and receive revelation there does not negate that statement.

I could keep going and going. There are so many quotes proving that the temple is also a place for us to come and be close to Heavenly Father and pray for ourselves. If you truly don't believe this, then I am very sorry for you, because you have been missing out on one of the biggest blessings temple service brings us!!! I hope that you will rethink your position, and come enjoy these blessings with me!

Thank you for your concern, but you seem to have misread what I wrote. I thought I was clear, but let me state it again:

The purpose of the celestial room is to represent the celestial kingdom. It is not designed as a place for people to kneel in prayer or to receive divine communication, except as we can do at any other place in the temple. It is not a special conduit to heaven. It's a room in the temple, one frequented by every person who receives the endowment for self or proxy. As such, it is an inappropriate place to fall to one's knees in prayer, an act intended for private individual or small group (e.g. family) activity.

Here are some quotes on the Celestial Room... I added the bold.

Your Path to the Temple - Ensign Oct. 2010 - ensign

“Inside the temple is a beautiful, peaceful room called the celestial room. In the celestial room we feel close to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, and we feel a little of what it will be like to live with Them in the celestial kingdom.”

Questions and Answers about the Temple - Friend Oct. 2009 - friend

“After you receive your endowment, you go into the celestial room. The beauty and reverence help you feel close to Heavenly Father.”

Closing Remarks - general-conference

“Every temple, large or small, has its beautiful celestial room. This room was created to represent the celestial kingdom. When the Mesa Arizona Temple was extensively renovated some years ago and was opened for public tours, one visitor described the celestial room as God’s living room. So it well might be. It is our privilege, unique and exclusive, while dressed in white, to sit at the conclusion of our ordinance work in the beautiful celestial room and ponder, meditate, and silently pray.

Here we can reflect on the great goodness of the Lord to us. Here we can reflect on the great plan of happiness which our Father has outlined for His children. And so I urge you, my brothers and sisters, do it while you have strength to do it. I know that when you get old, it becomes extremely difficult to get up and down. But what a great blessing it is.”

Note how much emphasis there is on pondering and meditation. Cushioned couches and chairs are provided for that very reason. Closing one's eyes in silent meditation and prayer is obviously appropriate. Kneeling or otherwise making a show of prayer seems clearly (to me, at least) inappropriate.

Vort, I would be very interested to see any evidence to back up your position on the issue.

When people kneel in prayer in the celestial room, they are asked to stop and not to do so.

I am actually a little shocked by some of the responses to this... I can't believe that there aren't others out there who have been so moved by coming into the Celestial room, and being in the temple that you were literally driven to your knees in prayer and worship.

People need not fall to their knees to feel moved. No one is objecting to spiritual feelings or emotions in the temple. The topic as I understand it is kneeling to pray in the celestial room.

[Traveler]

...

Traveler it is funny you bring up just listening. Because AT THE TIME I had asked HF if I was doing the right things in my life, and I was waiting for his answer when she came a bustin in. It was actually kind of funny.

...

Dear sister_in_faith, The next time you attend an endowment session at the temple listen very carefully concerning the proper method of prayer while attending the house of the L-rd. Keep in mind that the best instruction for temple worship actually takes place at the temple. In fact the temple is like the L-rd's higher and most sacred place of learning. Keep in mind that there are instructions concerning sacred covenants (including prayer). Much of what we are taught in the temple is taught through symbolism - and on an occasion where a patron may have misinterpreted symbolism; temple workers are there and instructed to assist and even correct when such is observed and correction required. The worker was trying to assist you - that you have interpreted this as rude in a most sensitive satiation could possibly indicate that you came spiritually unprepared.

The temple is a place where Jesus comes in person. When not in person his spirit is. And like Moses before the burning bush - seldom are we told about our concerns as much are we are instructed in the L-rd’s. -- As least concerning one point of your inquiry - you were granted a rather immediate and definite response - to which you did not take to as perhaps you should - thus this thread. Perhaps your prayer was answered.

The Traveler

[MarginOfError]

Quote, link, or provide a post # please.

The quote was mine:

Despite all those temporal concerns, working in the temple was one of the most rewarding experiences of my life. And during that time, I rarely (if ever) felt the Spirit in the temple. But I often felt it very powerfully after I left and had time to ponder quietly in the wake of my service.

And it's true. Being the youngest worker by about 30 years on a shift that was consistently understaffed, my assignments often required me to move from one place to the next qith as much speed as I could muster while maintaining a reverent disposition. Plain and simple, I was at the temple to work and make it possible for those who were visiting to have the experiences they seek.

I don't recall a single instance of feeling the Spirit while working in the temple. I just wasn't focused on that, and I didn't have time for those experiences. And like I said, when I left, I would have powerful moments of inspiration and clarity on my trip home. Temple service will bring revelation, but that doesn't mean it has to happen within the walls of the temple.

[annewandering]

ty margin. apologies are not necessary dravin.

[sister_in_faith]

who has problems with reading comprehension? I'm sorry what was that part again?

[beefche]

Oh, I think I understand now. Since MOE said that he, personally, doesn't feel the Spirit in the temple, you take that to mean that no one feels the Spirit there and that in fact, people (notice the plural) say that you can't feel the Spirit in the temple.

[Dravin]

The quote was mine:

And it's true. Being the youngest worker by about 30 years on a shift that was consistently understaffed, my assignments often required me to move from one place to the next qith as much speed as I could muster while maintaining a reverent disposition. Plain and simple, I was at the temple to work and make it possible for those who were visiting to have the experiences they seek.

I don't recall a single instance of feeling the Spirit while working in the temple. I just wasn't focused on that, and I didn't have time for those experiences. And like I said, when I left, I would have powerful moments of inspiration and clarity on my trip home. Temple service will bring revelation, but that doesn't mean it has to happen within the walls of the temple.

You didn't say that you didn't feel the spirit in the temple, you said you didn't feel the spirit while working in the temple. The qualifier is not insignificant. I've been so tired in the temple that I've not felt the spirit, if someone characterized that as me saying I don't feel the spirit in the temple it'd be a miss-characterization. Of course if Anne would have bee bothered to reference your post the context would have been a bit clearer, but she preferred to play games.

ty margin. apologies are not necessary dravin.

Yeah... I'm still waiting for at least two other posters. If you think you can play the "I'm not going to support anything I'm saying" game and then insinuate you're owed an apology you've a warped view of reality. Your statement is true of one poster within a limited context that was not identified within your post. The funny thing is if you'd just supported your post as requested I'd not have assumed you were up to your usual games but understood the context of your comment.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Dravin

[sister_in_faith]

will someone PLEASE close this thread? it is waaaayyyy off topic.

[annewandering]

one poster? lol well i figured it would get twisted. np. i have it clear now

[Vort]

will someone PLEASE close this thread? it is waaaayyyy off topic.

How is it off topic, s_i_f? Your original post was about the propriety of public prayer, and your first example was of praying in the celestial room. Then you asked what people thought, and people have been giving their thoughts.

This thread seems perfectly on topic. I don't understand why some feel the need to close down threads for being "off-topic" when they clearly are not.