Definition of 'Angel'?

[Bini]

I know what the dictionary says but that's not what I'm looking for. My confusion is the difference between being a son or daughter of God and being an angel. What makes an individual an angel? I've seen references where Lucifer is considered a fallen angel but we know that he was also a son of God. But the two are separate things and therefore there is a difference, correct?

[Traveler]

I know what the dictionary says but that's not what I'm looking for. My confusion is the difference between being a son or daughter of God and being an angel. What makes an individual an angel? I've seen references where Lucifer is considered a fallen angel but we know that he was also a son of God. But the two are separate things and therefore there is a difference, correct?

Excellent question. An angel is someone sent (messenger) in the name of G-d. Our understanding is that the priesthood is the official means (law and covenant) by which a person can be and is sent in G-d’s name. Anciently the individuals of a covenant were understood to be the “children” of the covenant and the proctor of the covenant was designated as the father – thus to be under a covenant with G-d gave one the official title of son or daughter of G-d.

The Traveler

[Vort]

I know what the dictionary says but that's not what I'm looking for. My confusion is the difference between being a son or daughter of God and being an angel. What makes an individual an angel? I've seen references where Lucifer is considered a fallen angel but we know that he was also a son of God. But the two are separate things and therefore there is a difference, correct?

An angel is a divine messenger. We normally think of angels as being somehow "supernatural", such as resurrected or translated beings, but there is no reason you and I cannot be angels. The scriptures use the term in just that sense in many places.

Consider that when John the Baptist restored the Aaronic Priesthood to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery -- the same Priesthood authority conferred upon our sons when they are twelve years old -- he said, "Upon you, my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys to the ministering of angels..." Our sons, and indeed all Priesthood holders, are given the keys to the ministering of angels. We are to be ministering angels to others.

[Blackmarch]

I know what the dictionary says but that's not what I'm looking for. My confusion is the difference between being a son or daughter of God and being an angel. What makes an individual an angel? I've seen references where Lucifer is considered a fallen angel but we know that he was also a son of God. But the two are separate things and therefore there is a difference, correct?

Angel is a messenger or servant from God. At one time he was in order right after Christ... I'd imagine that he'd fill the duties of such before his rebellion.

[phi39]

Interesting topic! For what it's worth, in the traditional/non-LDS Christian context, angels are not actually human spirits, but another order of creation.

[NeuroTypical]

So then, what's up with Cherubim and six wings and flaming coals and all that?

[Traveler]

So then, what's up with Cherubim and six wings and flaming coals and all that?

What you reference are sympolic. The symbolism surrounding Cherubim I find most interesting in the parallels the symbols concerning the Messiah. Understanding that Messiah means anointed - it is also interesting to note that there are two claims to messiah anointing - as there are also two Cherubim at the mercy seat (judgment seat of G-d -- one on the right side and one on the left - or one at the right hand and one at the left hand). A Rabii told me that the proper translation of the two Cherubim at the mercy seat is "That the two BROTHERS shall face each other".

I am not sure a Cherubim is an angel. In ancient Greek (where the word Cherubim comes from) a Cherubim was an order of g-d not an order of angel.

The Traveler

[Bini]

OK I think I get it.

New question. So a third of us in heaven went with Lucifer when he decided to go against the Lord's plan. Does Lucifer have the power to create life/beings as Heavenly Father does? Or are his servants those that followed him? Also, for those that do not return to heaven after this life but obtain a body, will there be a new and more powerful entity than Lucifer himself since he does not have a body? In a sense, he could be overthrown by someone that has walked this earth..

[Just_A_Guy]

OK I think I get it.

New question. So a third of us in heaven went with Lucifer when he decided to go against the Lord's plan. Does Lucifer have the power to create life/beings as Heavenly Father does? Or are his servants those that followed him?

I've never seen anything in LDS theology (or even psuedo-LDS theology) suggesting this may be the case.

Also, for those that do not return to heaven after this life but obtain a body, will there be a new and more powerful entity than Lucifer himself since he does not have a body? In a sense, he could be overthrown by someone that has walked this earth..

There is evidence supporting a version of this idea. Joseph Smith taught that inherently, beings with bodies have power over beings without bodies. And Cain's covenant with Satan entailed that, in the long run, Can would dominate Satan himself. So, in that sense, I think most Mormons would agree that in the long run Satan winds up as being subordinate to every child of perdition.

I'm not so convinced, personally; just because a) I wonder how sure we are that beings who wind up as children of perdition get to keep their physical bodies; and b) I'm not sure I'd establish doctrine on the premise that Satan is going to keep a promise.

[Vort]

OK I think I get it.

New question. So a third of us in heaven went with Lucifer when he decided to go against the Lord's plan. Does Lucifer have the power to create life/beings as Heavenly Father does? Or are his servants those that followed him? Also, for those that do not return to heaven after this life but obtain a body, will there be a new and more powerful entity than Lucifer himself since he does not have a body? In a sense, he could be overthrown by someone that has walked this earth..

These are reasonable questions. I would suggest, however, that ultimately they are important only to those who will live in those conditions, i.e. the damned.

Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof [of endless punishment], they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.(D&C 76:48)

So my impulse would be to respond, Don't worry about it. With any luck, you will never really know all those specifics.

[beefche]

I'm not so convinced, personally; just because a) I wonder how sure we are that beings who wind up as children of perdition get to keep their physical bodies;

JAG, why would you think they would not keep their bodies? I thought resurrection was a free gift for all who have gained a body? And doesn't resurrection establish that the spirit and body will never be separated?

[volgadon]

I am not sure a Cherubim is an angel. In ancient Greek (where the word Cherubim comes from) a Cherubim was an order of g-d not an order of angel.

Hebrew, actually.

[jayanna]

The only things Satan can create are Chaos and Misery, nothing tangible. He is not tangible and cannot rule over anything tangible. He can influence people to create things, but they will always work out to be to our good. He is kinda always shooting himself in the foot with that one. He is predictable to the point that Jesus knew Judas would betray Him with a kiss, Adam and Eve would eventually eat that fruit, etc. Don't worry, God's got this.

Since everyone who has ever had a body will be resurrected, they will have that advantage, but they won't be able to use it for anything...being cast into outer darkness, if they previously held the priesthood they will no longer have it. More evil than Satan, hmmm well in a certain sense, I think one with a body has a certain disadvantage in that when you are there, everyone with eyes can see you, Satan cannot be seen or heard or smelt, or otherwise detected...so in some ways it could be a negative if you are up to no good and want to blame it on someone else or hope they will blame it on themselves, or convince them that you do not exist at all...you loose the sneak factor if you get my meaning.

[Traveler]

Hebrew, actually.

guess again the Hebrew is הכרובים

of which there is no modern translation. The Greek was used directly in scripture without any English Translation. In Greek mythology Cupid (Eros) is among the most famous cherub and was a g-d (deity) not and angel.

I would also point out that the original Hebrew that identified Cherubim in Eden preceded the Greek. But the main point is that the Greek Cherubim was a class of g-d and was not changed to be a type of angel until sometime during the dark ages.

The Traveler

[Vort]

guess again the Hebrew is הכרובים

of which there is no modern translation. The Greek was used directly in scripture without any English Translation. In Greek mythology Cupid (Eros) is among the most famous cherub and was a g-d (deity) not and angel.

I would also point out that the original Hebrew that identified Cherubim in Eden preceded the Greek. But the main point is that the Greek Cherubim was a class of g-d and was not changed to be a type of angel until sometime during the dark ages.

The Traveler

The term cherubim certainly looks like a Hebrew plural; compare elohim "gods", for example. The online Etymology Dictionary gives the etymology of "cherub" as:

from L.L. cherub, from Gk. cheroub, from Heb. kerubh (pl. kerubhim) "winged angel," perhaps related to Akkadian karubu "to bless," karibu "one who blesses," an epithet of the bull-colossus.

This suggests that it came originally from Hebrew, through Greek, into late Latin, then to us, but keeping its Hebrew plural form.

[Dravin]

JAG, why would you think they would not keep their bodies? I thought resurrection was a free gift for all who have gained a body? And doesn't resurrection establish that the spirit and body will never be separated?

Sons of Perdition

It sounds like to me (and it's worthwhile to follow through to the scriptural link the guide is using) that they'll be resurrected. So the question is mainly the last one I suppose; can resurrection be undone?

[Traveler]

The term cherubim certainly looks like a Hebrew plural; compare elohim "gods", for example. The online Etymology Dictionary gives the etymology of "cherub" as:

from L.L. cherub, from Gk. cheroub, from Heb. kerubh (pl. kerubhim) "winged angel," perhaps related to Akkadian karubu "to bless," karibu "one who blesses," an epithet of the bull-colossus.

This suggests that it came originally from Hebrew, through Greek, into late Latin, then to us, but keeping its Hebrew plural form.

What you are looking at is current etymology - most likely Wikipedia, that is more than 2,000 years after the fact. As I stated previously - Anciently Cupid was identified as a Greek cheroub - and Cupid was a g-d (son of Venus I believe) not an angel.

The Traveler

[Dravin]

Anciently Cupid was identified as a Greek cheroub - and Cupid was a g-d (son of Venus I believe) not an angel.

If you're going to point back to the Greek at least use Eros and Aphrodite. :)

Edited January 12, 2012 by Dravin

[Blackmarch]

OK I think I get it.

New question. So a third of us in heaven went with Lucifer when he decided to go against the Lord's plan. Does Lucifer have the power to create life/beings as Heavenly Father does? Or are his servants those that followed him? Also, for those that do not return to heaven after this life but obtain a body, will there be a new and more powerful entity than Lucifer himself since he does not have a body? In a sense, he could be overthrown by someone that has walked this earth..

I don't think lucifer has that ability however i cannot think of anything that outright explains that ability in regards to the devil... however I believe its necessary to get a body and to be glorified to be able to have that ability.

And yes someone who has kept their first estate and came into the second estate (this life) will be greater than the devil, even if they should go where he is.

[Blackmarch]

So then, what's up with Cherubim and six wings and flaming coals and all that?

sounds like a combination of beings described both in the old testament and from revelations.

[Blackmarch]

I've never seen anything in LDS theology (or even psuedo-LDS theology) suggesting this may be the case.

There is evidence supporting a version of this idea. Joseph Smith taught that inherently, beings with bodies have power over beings without bodies. And Cain's covenant with Satan entailed that, in the long run, Can would dominate Satan himself. So, in that sense, I think most Mormons would agree that in the long run Satan winds up as being subordinate to every child of perdition.

I'm not so convinced, personally; just because a) I wonder how sure we are that beings who wind up as children of perdition get to keep their physical bodies; and b) I'm not sure I'd establish doctrine on the premise that Satan is going to keep a promise.

we dont have anything that says what happens to an individual once they reach outer darkness beyond the "gnashing of teeth" and etc.. forever.

However we are taught that once a spirit is reunited with a resurrected body that it won't ever be undone.

As for having power over those who did not keep the first estate, is in the D&C somewhere. i'm trying to find it.

[Dravin]

Also, for those that do not return to heaven after this life but obtain a body, will there be a new and more powerful entity than Lucifer himself since he does not have a body? In a sense, he could be overthrown by someone that has walked this earth..

From:Pearl of Great Price Student Manual - Religion 327 - Moses 5:16 - 54 - Cain Loved Satan More Than God

Moses 5:23–30 . Will Cain Rule over Satan?

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “all beings who have bodies have power over those who have not” ( Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 181). Elder Bruce R. McConkie said: “As Adam represented the Lord on earth, so Cain acted for and on behalf of Lucifer. Indeed, this first murderer of all murderers is himself Perdition—he was so designated in preexistence—and he will rule over Satan himself when the devil and his angels are cast out everlastingly” ( A New Witness For the Articles of Faith, 658).

[volgadon]

guess again the Hebrew is הכרובים

Ha. Haha. Hahahahaha. Are you serious? הכרובים (hacherubim) means "the cherubs." The prefix ה (ha) is the definitive article and the suffix ים (im) is the masculine plural form. Very elementary stuff.

of which there is no modern translation. The Greek was used directly in scripture without any English Translation. In Greek mythology Cupid (Eros) is among the most famous cherub and was a g-d (deity) not and angel.

You keep saying this. I wish you would actually back it up with evidence.

I would also point out that the original Hebrew that identified Cherubim in Eden preceded the Greek. But the main point is that the Greek Cherubim was a class of g-d and was not changed to be a type of angel until sometime during the dark ages.

The Traveler

So you do concede that it wasn't originally a Greek word.

[Traveler]

Ha. Haha. Hahahahaha. Are you serious? הכרובים (hacherubim) means "the cherubs." The prefix ה (ha) is the definitive article and the suffix ים (im) is the masculine plural form. Very elementary stuff.

You keep saying this. I wish you would actually back it up with evidence.

So you do concede that it wasn't originally a Greek word.

Has any cherub in scripture ever been specifically identified to a known individual? I submit that in the same scripture where a "covering" cherub is specifically identified that the individual is also identified as "anointed" - which in Hebrew is translated into English as "Messiah" or “Christ” from the Greek.

And - BTW while we are on "Very elementary stuff" -- "the cherubs"? is not cherub singular and the plural cherubim -- what is "cherubs"?

But we are being distracted from the real issue concerning what a cherub is? So I ask you - Is there a symbolism associated with the scriptural use of "Cherubim" that is not a symbol also associated with the Messiah? If a cherub has the title of "Anointed" - my point is that we are not talking about a mere class of angels but something else entirely.

One last thing to consider: Hebrews 9:5 - Why did Paul say that concerning the Cherubims of glory at the judgment seat (mercyseat) “of which we cannot now speak particularly.” Then in verse 8: “The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest”

Now look at the rest of the verses through 17 and tell me that we are not talking about Christ but an angel?

The Traveler

[Vort]

And - BTW while we are on "Very elementary stuff" -- "the cherubs"? is not cherub singular and the plural cherubim -- what is "cherubs"?

"Cherubs" is the native English plural of the English word "cherub", a transliteration of a Hebrew term. The native Hebrew plural, "cherubim", also survives as a loan word. But "cherubs" is a perfectly appropriate plural, just as "cactuses/cacti" and "octopuses/octopi" are appropriate plural forms.