pam Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Another thread brought up a question I have regarding baptisms for the dead and ordinances done by proxy. I know that the "rules" state that before we do the temple work for someone who has passed on that we need to get permission from the surviving spouse etc. What if we know that the surviving spouse would never give permission but we go ahead and do it anyway without respect for their feelings or without permission? Is that being morally ethical? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennarator Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 I don't think it is. There is time to wait for those people. There are plenty of others that can be done, now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEthePrimate Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Another thread brought up a question I have regarding baptisms for the dead and ordinances done by proxy.I know that the "rules" state that before we do the temple work for someone who has passed on that we need to get permission from the surviving spouse etc. What if we know that the surviving spouse would never give permission but we go ahead and do it anyway without respect for their feelings or without permission?Is that being morally ethical?Only if you believe disregarding Church policy and the family's feelings is morally ethical. (Sorry, couldn't help it!)P.S. On a more serious note, as a widower myself, I would STRONGLY recommend not treading on widows' feelings. Just... not cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 My grandparents are not yet baptized because of family objections. So, you know what I think of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
applepansy Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 There will come a time when the work will be done. Its a special experience for a newly reactivated member or a convert to do the temple work for their relative. Why would anyone want to take that away from them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) There will come a time when the work will be done. Its a special experience for a newly reactivated member or a convert to do the temple work for their relative. Why would anyone want to take that away from them?Simple answer. Your family is Catholic and you turning away from the Catholic faith to become LDS is bad enough let alone having your grandparents baptized in the LDS Church after they specifically instructed you, even in writing (happened in my case), not to do so would be like spitting in their faces to boot. I don't think the Church would want any of her members to do this. Edited February 16, 2012 by anatess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenRaines Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Honest in your dealings with your fellowman? I think that includes family. Ben Raines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tomk Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Another thread brought up a question I have regarding baptisms for the dead and ordinances done by proxy.I know that the "rules" state that before we do the temple work for someone who has passed on that we need to get permission from the surviving spouse etc. What if we know that the surviving spouse would never give permission but we go ahead and do it anyway without respect for their feelings or without permission?Is that being morally ethical?Forgive me if this has been covered already.If permission is required, then the ordinance would not be performed.How would it be performed against the surviving spouses will? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
applepansy Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Simple answer. Your family is Catholic and you turning away from the Catholic faith to become LDS is bad enough let alone having your grandparents baptized in the LDS Church after they specifically instructed you, even in writing (happened in my case), not to do so would be like spitting in their faces to boot. I don't think the Church would want any of her members to do this.I'm confused. I wasn't disagreeing with the policy.My question is why would anyone want to take a special experience away from anyone? There will come a day when regardless of what faith you belong to on this earth we will all know the restored gospel. The work will be done. Hopefully, eventually it will be done by the family that is closest. It would be sad to deprive them of the opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEthePrimate Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 If permission is required, then the ordinance would not be performed.How would it be performed against the surviving spouses will?Sometimes people, even True Believing Mormons, ignore the rules. As evidenced by the fiasco with proxy baptisms for Holocaust victims. The Church has a policy against that, but some people choose not to follow it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEthePrimate Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 My grandparents are not yet baptized because of family objections. So, you know what I think of this.As a direct descendant of your grandparents, you could legitimately do the work. You are as much a part of the family as anybody else. But if you're refraining from doing it in order to spare your family's feelings, well, that is very considerate of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 I'm confused. I wasn't disagreeing with the policy.My question is why would anyone want to take a special experience away from anyone? There will come a day when regardless of what faith you belong to on this earth we will all know the restored gospel. The work will be done. Hopefully, eventually it will be done by the family that is closest. It would be sad to deprive them of the opportunity.Sorry, apple. I seem to be really slow today. I don't understand your post. Why would anyone want to take a special experience away from anyone? Who is anyone? The LDS Church or the non-LDS family? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 As a direct descendant of your grandparents, you could legitimately do the work. You are as much a part of the family as anybody else. But if you're refraining from doing it in order to spare your family's feelings, well, that is very considerate of you. I was told by the surviving family "patriarch" not to do the work... in writing even, just to make sure there's no question about his wishes. This is for both my maternal and paternal grandparents... and even my great-grandparents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magen_Avot Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 Do we know who ignored the rule for proxy baptisms? I havn't read where this is known. It may have been done accidently, or on purpose and the person may have been True Believing or... not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magen_Avot Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 I was told by the surviving family "patriarch" not to do the work... in writing even, just to make sure there's no question about his wishes. This is for both my maternal and paternal grandparents... and even my great-grandparents. This is an interesting cunumdrum. What are the wishes of those who passed on? Some investigators are told not to join the church. Some will do it anyway and others not. Is it being honest in their dealings if they get baptised anyway?Vicarious baptisms against the wishes of the living (barring circumstances mentioned earlier) is not an issue of being honest in our dealings unless they ask you and you deny the truth. Is it ethical? Could be debated but only you can answer that one for yourself. In the end the person has their say don't they? I know the living makes it more complicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted February 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 Do we know who ignored the rule for proxy baptisms? I havn't read where this is known. It may have been done accidently, or on purpose and the person may have been True Believing or... not. I am asking this because of a personal knowledge of this.It's something that has really bothered me but doesn't seem to bother the others involved. I just wanted to get the perspective of others to see if I'm just off base on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 I was told by the surviving family "patriarch" not to do the work... in writing even, just to make sure there's no question about his wishes. This is for both my maternal and paternal grandparents... and even my great-grandparents. If you honor his wish, I think that's nice of you. But surely not even he believes that his request should have any effect after he dies. He is not the permanent, eternal gatekeeper for his ancestors -- especially when they're YOUR ancestors, too.If your ancestors themselves had requested no ordinance work to be done, that would be a different matter. As it is, if I were in your shoes, I would wait perhaps until the day after the death of the "patriarch" before submitting the work to be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMGuy Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 Gospel principles #31 has this to say...."When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest." -RM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martain Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 Knowing the importance of proxy work, I can see the temptation to do the work for family members even if their living relatives don't give their permission. We can easily envision that so and so who passed away is eagerly awaiting for the work to be done so they can accept and move forward. The thought of such an individual having to wait for an undetermined period of time is... unpleasant. Yet perhaps this analogy will help. Say you met Sam who is 16 years old. He wants to get baptized and tells the missionaries that he has his parents permission yet you know for certain that his parents are vehemently opposed to him getting baptized. Would it be dishonest for you to stay silent? What if you knew his parents will but were the missionary. Would it be dishonest to baptize him anyways? If you answered the way I did, then how would that be any different from baptizing others against the wishes of their closest living relatives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler90AZ Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 If me and my older sister are only people alive in our line, do I have to ask my sister for permission to do proxy baptisms for my ancestors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted February 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 It's been a long time since I've submitted names to have work done, but isn't there something that asks if permission was given to have the work done by any known living descendent? Something along that line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayanna Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 yes, I have been working on my genealogy, and it asks that if there could be living relatives closer than me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayanna Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 If me and my older sister are only people alive in our line, do I have to ask my sister for permission to do proxy baptisms for my ancestors?no, if you put in for say, your uncle-in-law who recently died, it will probably ask you if you should ask any of his family, for example. His parents/children might want to do his work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john doe Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 Do we know who ignored the rule for proxy baptisms? I havn't read where this is known. It may have been done accidently, or on purpose and the person may have been True Believing or... not.I don't have a source for this, but it seems to me that the first time I had heard of this incident, they said the person who did it had had their account flagged and were unable to submit names anymore. But I haven't heard that since, so it may have been my imagination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackmarch Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 Another thread brought up a question I have regarding baptisms for the dead and ordinances done by proxy.I know that the "rules" state that before we do the temple work for someone who has passed on that we need to get permission from the surviving spouse etc. What if we know that the surviving spouse would never give permission but we go ahead and do it anyway without respect for their feelings or without permission?Is that being morally ethical?While the spouse is alive, then no...But after death, if they had never came out and said no, then i'd like to partially quote my math teacher;"never assume..."And as far as im concerned once someone is dead they dont have any say in what goes on, on this side of life (unless they come back and visit or something). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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