1st Article of Faith

[pam]

I did this 4 years ago and we had some great discussions. I'd like to once again get some discussions of some of our core values and beliefs.

There have been many investigators using this website to get some basic doctrinal information about the Church. Each week I will post an Article of Faith so that the discussion of each can be done. Keep in mind..this is based on LDS doctrine and debating of that will not be tolerated.

!. We believe in God the Eternal Father and in His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost.

[Maygraceabound]

!. We believe in God the Eternal Father and in His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost.

Out of the three above, which one is the great "I AM"

[Vort]

Out of the three above, which one is the great "I AM"

Jesus Christ, known in Moses' time as Jehovah or Jahweh.

[HEthePrimate]

Three personages = polytheism? (Technically henotheism, since the Father is in charge.) Not that there's anything wrong with that! Just clarifying.

[Maygraceabound]

Jesus Christ, known in Moses' time as Jehovah or Jahweh.

This is a good post. Question, was Jesus Moses's god during this time?

[Vort]

This is a good post. Question, was Jesus Moses's god during this time?

Moses' God was Jehovah, the premortal Jesus Christ.

[Maygraceabound]

Moses' God was Jehovah, the premortal Jesus Christ.

Then Jehovah is not the Father?

[HEthePrimate]

Then Jehovah is not the Father?

That is correct. LDS folks call God the Father "Elohim." They call Jesus Christ/God the Son "Jehovah," and we don't have a name for the Holy Ghost. They are viewed as three separate and distinct beings, but are united by one purpose. The three together, what mainstream Christians call the Trinity, Mormons refer to as the Godhead.

Much of what you read in The Book of Mormon actually sounds pretty Trinitarian, but Mormons base their belief that the members of the Godhead are three individuals at least partly on one of the accounts Joseph Smith gave of the First Vision, wherein he saw two separate personages standing side-by-side. One of them indicated the other and called him his "beloved Son," and told Joseph to listen to what he had to say, whereupon the Son delivered the rest of the message.

And of course you have the instance in the N.T. when Jesus was baptized, and the voice of the Father was heard coming from heaven, and the Holy Spirit appeared in the form of a dove. Also, the New Testament shows Jesus praying to the Father, and it would seem a bit silly for him to be talking to himself that way, and so we interpret that to mean that the Father is actually a different person than Jesus.

We can say that God is one because even though there are three individuals in the Godhead, they are united in purpose and would never speak or act in contradiction to each other. Jesus states that he only did what the Father would do, and so they act in perfect harmony. He also prays to his Father that we humans will all become one even as they are one, which doesn't mean we'll somehow transmogrify into a single individual, but rather that we will become united in purpose, too. That is the concept of Zion (they shall be of one heart and one mind), and of Atonement, or at-one-ment. The relationship between Jesus and the Father pretty much sums up what the entire Gospel is about, and so it's fitting that it should be in the first article of faith.

Peace,

HEP

[Maygraceabound]

That is correct. LDS folks call God the Father "Elohim." They call Jesus Christ/God the Son "Jehovah," and we don't have a name for the Holy Ghost. They are viewed as three separate and distinct beings, but are united by one purpose. The three together, what mainstream Christians call the Trinity, Mormons refer to as the Godhead.

Much of what you read in The Book of Mormon actually sounds pretty Trinitarian, but Mormons base their belief that the members of the Godhead are three individuals at least partly on one of the accounts Joseph Smith gave of the First Vision, wherein he saw two separate personages standing side-by-side. One of them indicated the other and called him his "beloved Son," and told Joseph to listen to what he had to say, whereupon the Son delivered the rest of the message.

And of course you have the instance in the N.T. when Jesus was baptized, and the voice of the Father was heard coming from heaven, and the Holy Spirit appeared in the form of a dove. Also, the New Testament shows Jesus praying to the Father, and it would seem a bit silly for him to be talking to himself that way, and so we interpret that to mean that the Father is actually a different person than Jesus.

We can say that God is one because even though there are three individuals in the Godhead, they are united in purpose and would never speak or act in contradiction to each other. Jesus states that he only did what the Father would do, and so they act in perfect harmony. He also prays to his Father that we humans will all become one even as they are one, which doesn't mean we'll somehow transmogrify into a single individual, but rather that we will become united in purpose, too. That is the concept of Zion (they shall be of one heart and one mind), and of Atonement, or at-one-ment. The relationship between Jesus and the Father pretty much sums up what the entire Gospel is about, and so it's fitting that it should be in the first article of faith.

Peace,

HEP

Above Vort said said that Jesus is the "I AM"

In Ex 3:14 ...And God (Elohim, who you call Father) said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

So are Jesus and Father both "I AM"?

[Just_A_Guy]

Whatever they are, Jesus and the Father do not seem to be the same Being given that Jesus consistently talks about the Father in the third person throughout the New Testament, repeatedly talks to the Father, and that the Father at various points even manifests Himself independently of Jesus.

Now, to address Maygraceabound's question more precisely: Mormons typically view "Elohim" as the most formal name we know of for the Father. But linguistically, it is a Hebrew word--basically, either the plural or superlative of "elowahh", a generic term for "god".

When modern Mormons refer to Elohim, they're typically talking about God the Father. But in scripture, depending on context, the Hebrew word "elohiym" may be either a specific reference God the Father or else (as in the example you cite) a generic term for "the gods" or "very great God"--and thus, in the latter usages, hypothetically applicable to any of the three members of the Godhead.

Incidentally, our understanding of the nature of God has grown somewhat over the years. An early Mormon document called "Lectures on Faith", published in the same volume as early editions of our Doctrine and Covenants and written primarily by an early associate of Joseph Smith's named Sidney Rigdon, suggested that the Godhead consisted of two personages, not three; and that the Holy Spirit was more or less a generic term for the shared mind of God the Father and God the Son. For a time, some LDS leaders also (as I suspect you know) flirted with linking the personage of God the Father with Adam. That notion never gained universal acceptance among Mormons (or even among the Church hierarchy), and over time was explicitly rejected.

Mormonism's modern position on the Godhead is outlined in a document produced by LDS leadership in the early 20th century (1916 or so) called The Father and the Son: A Doctrinal Exposition which you can read online here.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Just_A_Guy

[Traveler]

Above Vort said said that Jesus is the "I AM"

In Ex 3:14 ...And God (Elohim, who you call Father) said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

So are Jesus and Father both "I AM"?

In the eternal scheme of things G-d the Father is the supreme Suzerain of the “Kingdom of Heaven”. Anciently the society of heaven was called a Kingdom and the ancients tried to copy that structure in the ancient kingdoms – where the similarities continue and end may not be intuitively obvious to us modern types living under democratic societies.

The short answer is that if man, (Adam) was in contact with the same G-d before and after the fall – then there was in reality no actual fall from anything. But in truth man was excommunicated from the kingdom and society of heaven – thus loosing citizenship the king or Suzerain of Heaven was no longer our king and we no longer his subjects under his protection. Under this condition Jesus became the temporary “Mediator” of exiled man until the conditions of the fall could be legally redeemed or paid for.

This one single understanding and fact is very missing from the Trinity Tradition and is the foundation of all the confusion concerning the nature of G-d. Jesus is the one and only G-d of fallen man – but he is not the Supreme Suzerain of Heaven (even by his own words) – but is the Servant Vassal of G-d the Father. It was not at all uncommon anciently for a servant vassal acting for the Suzerain to use the name of the Supreme Suzerain in first person. – For example even to say – “I am your Father in Heaven”. This fact in history confused many when ancient kings – thinking they represented the creator also spoke in the first person as though they were G-d. The Pharaohs of ancient Egypt are a most excellent example of this causing many to think that the Pharaohs thought they were G-ds.

The Traveler

[Maygraceabound]

In Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The Son is called mighty God and everlasting Father.

John 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God......... and the Word became flesh.

As established above the great "I AM" is both Jesus and Father. The Son is called "mighty God" and "everlasting Father". The Word = God and the Word = flesh (Jesus).

Could it be that just as you are three parts, body, soul and spirit and that you were made in God's image which seems to also be three parts, Father, Soul and Spirit?

[bytor2112]

Could it be that just as you are three parts, body, soul and spirit and that you were made in God's image which seems to also be three parts, Father, Soul and Spirit?

We believe the Spirit and the Body are the soul of man and that we are literally created in HIS image.

[NeuroTypical]

Hey Maygraceabound - are you interested in learning about us, or proving us wrong?

If the latter, you're on the wrong board.

[Just_A_Guy]

In Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The Son is called mighty God and everlasting Father.

Yes; if you had read the document I linked to in my previous post, you would have seen that Jesus can properly be called a Father--partly because He stands in His Father's shoes when dealing with man; and partly because He is our Savior and we have been reborn as new creatures in Him--He is therefore the Father of our new lives as heirs to salvation.

I'm going to put my moderator hat on for a moment here: Contributors who choose cast aspersions on LDS teachings by putting up sound-bytes from the Bible and then, when called upon to contextualize those sound-bytes, engage in rhetorical bait-and-switch rather than acknowledging previously made posts and engaging in the give-and-take of reasoned discussion; will find their stay on these forums to be of rather short duration.

John 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God......... and the Word became flesh.

None of which contradicts the LDS position. Jehovah existed long before He was born in Bethelehem and given the name Yeshua bin Yusuf.

As established above the great "I AM" is both Jesus and Father.

It is only established that Jesus can be called a father, and that He was a God before His mortal birth. It does not identify Him and His Father as the same being; and my previous post contains links to five biblical passages showing Them to be separate Beings.

Could it be that just as you are three parts, body, soul and spirit and that you were made in God's image which seems to also be three parts, Father, Soul and Spirit?

From an LDS standpoint, the answer is "no". The Biblical support for such a multiple-personalitied being is ambiguous at best. While the latter-day prophets (whose authority and knowledge of God equals that of any of the Bible's authors) took some time to thoroughly expound the nature of God; they rejected the traditional view of the trinity from day one.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Just_A_Guy

[Tyler90AZ]

In Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The Son is called mighty God and everlasting Father.

John 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God......... and the Word became flesh.

As established above the great "I AM" is both Jesus and Father. The Son is called "mighty God" and "everlasting Father". The Word = God and the Word = flesh (Jesus).

Could it be that just as you are three parts, body, soul and spirit and that you were made in God's image which seems to also be three parts, Father, Soul and Spirit?

May, I think we can both agree the Bible can be interpreted in many ways. Just like we can justify our point with that scripture, so can you. With that in mind, the only real way to know the truth of all things is to pray about them. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with Jesus at its head, lays forth a challenge to all non-believers. The challenge is to read The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ with a sincere heart and pray about it, then the truth will be revealed onto you. What do you have to lose by reading The Book of Mormon? If you truly think about it, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

[Maygraceabound]

I am trying to understand you view. To me, it still does not make sense. He says you shall have no other gods before me. Who is me? Is it Father or Jesus?

[Just_A_Guy]

I am trying to understand you view. To me, it still does not make sense. He says you shall have no other gods before me. Who is me? Is it Father or Jesus?

The answer to your question is, "yes". The First Commandment is not a prophetic endorsement of the trinitarian dogma that would be adopted universally among the Christian world only as a political compromise in the fourth century CE. The First Commandment is an admonition to Israel and to all humankind, to abandon those things that lead us away from God. In Israel's day it was the idolatrous gods of the Egyptians, Canaanites, Hittites, Sumerians, Chaldeans, etc. For us, it could be any number of things.

Now, are you going to address the issue of the New Testament's repeatedly showing the Father and the Son to be separate beings, or are we done here?

Edited March 18, 2012 by Just_A_Guy

[skippy740]

I am trying to understand you view. To me, it still does not make sense. He says you shall have no other gods before me. Who is me? Is it Father or Jesus?

Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of the Father.

However, Jesus Christ is also referred to as Father in various parts of LDS scriptures.

Under the direction of the Father (Elohim), Jesus Christ created the heavens and the earth. Jesus Christ is the Father of this world, under the direction of the Father.

Mosiah 15:1-4

1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

[Vort]

Then Jehovah is not the Father?

Correct.

[Vort]

Above Vort said said that Jesus is the "I AM"

In Ex 3:14 ...And God (Elohim, who you call Father) said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

So are Jesus and Father both "I AM"?

Please try very hard not to lecture Latter-day Saints on what you think they believe. Asking our beliefs is always better, 100% of the time, than telling us our beliefs.

The Hebrew term אלהים elohim means "gods". It is indeed used as a name-title for the Father. In the Old Testament, it is used to refer generically to God, also called by name "Jehovah" or "Jahweh"/"Yahweh" (depending on how you care to transliterate the initial semiconsonant). The selfsame word is used to refer to false gods and idols.

In other words, it is a word.

The Old Testament "Jehovah" is the premortal Jesus Christ. This is true, even when he is referred to by the Hebrew noun אלהים elohim "gods". Again, please try to avoid telling us what we believe. You are not qualified to do so.

[Vort]

I am trying to understand you view. To me, it still does not make sense. He says you shall have no other gods before me. Who is me? Is it Father or Jesus?

The question itself is nonsensical. "God" refers both to the Father and to the Son. That you seem incapable of understanding this rather obvious, simple doctrine does not really detract from the doctrine.

[skippy740]

I think this can help clarify LDS doctrine:

The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles

The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles

"The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles," The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles, (2000)

As we commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ two millennia ago, we offer our testimony of the reality of His matchless life and the infinite virtue of His great atoning sacrifice. None other has had so profound an influence upon all who have lived and will yet live upon the earth.

He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New. Under the direction of His Father, He was the creator of the earth. “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made” (John 1:3). Though sinless, He was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. He “went about doing good” (Acts 10:38), yet was despised for it. His gospel was a message of peace and goodwill. He entreated all to follow His example. He walked the roads of Palestine, healing the sick, causing the blind to see, and raising the dead. He taught the truths of eternity, the reality of our premortal existence, the purpose of our life on earth, and the potential for the sons and daughters of God in the life to come.

He instituted the sacrament as a reminder of His great atoning sacrifice. He was arrested and condemned on spurious charges, convicted to satisfy a mob, and sentenced to die on Calvary’s cross. He gave His life to atone for the sins of all mankind. His was a great vicarious gift in behalf of all who would ever live upon the earth.

We solemnly testify that His life, which is central to all human history, neither began in Bethlehem nor concluded on Calvary. He was the Firstborn of the Father, the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, the Redeemer of the world.

He rose from the grave to “become the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Corinthians 15:20). As Risen Lord, He visited among those He had loved in life. He also ministered among His “other sheep” (John 10:16) in ancient America. In the modern world, He and His Father appeared to the boy Joseph Smith, ushering in the long-promised “dispensation of the fulness of times” (Ephesians 1:10).

Of the Living Christ, the Prophet Joseph wrote: “His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:

“I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father” (D&C 110:3–4).

Of Him the Prophet also declared: “And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

“For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—

“That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:22–24).

We declare in words of solemnity that His priesthood and His Church have been restored upon the earth—“built upon the foundation of … apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone” (Ephesians 2:20).

We testify that He will someday return to earth. “And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together” (Isaiah 40:5). He will rule as King of Kings and reign as Lord of Lords, and every knee shall bend and every tongue shall speak in worship before Him. Each of us will stand to be judged of Him according to our works and the desires of our hearts.

We bear testimony, as His duly ordained Apostles—that Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. He is the great King Immanuel, who stands today on the right hand of His Father. He is the light, the life, and the hope of the world. His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come. God be thanked for the matchless gift of His divine Son.

The First Presidency

January 1, 2000

The Quorum Of The Twelve

© 2000 by Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved. Printed in the United States of America.

English approval: 12/99. Translation approval: xx/xx. Translation of The Living Christ. Language. 36299 xxx

[HEthePrimate]

Above Vort said said that Jesus is the "I AM"

In Ex 3:14 ...And God (Elohim, who you call Father) said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

So are Jesus and Father both "I AM"?

I don't know Hebrew, but I am given to understand that the ehyeh in "ehyeh asher ehyeh" (from Ex. 3:14) is derived from the same Hebrew word (for "to be") as Yahweh. Apparently Elohim and Yahweh are often used interchangeably in the O.T. The Mormon understanding of the Godhead is not derived only from the Bible, however, but also from modern revelation.

If the Father and the Son are acting in concert, however, maybe it doesn't matter so much who is called what in the Old Testament?

Peace,

HEP

[Traveler]

I am trying to understand you view. To me, it still does not make sense. He says you shall have no other gods before me. Who is me? Is it Father or Jesus?

Are you really trying to understand? Do you not believe in the fall? As I said if we maintain contact with the same G-d before and after the fall - there is no fall. The fall would be an illusion. I see no effort that you are trying at all to understand the fall and how the fall effects our relationship with G-d.

What does the term "Mediator" mean to you? Do you understand what a mediator was in ancient law and the role of a mediator with the Suzerain?

The Traveler