Interesting comment on tithing

[Latter Days Guy]

Read this in the comments section on a blog for the Salt Lake Tribune, what do people think?

Tithing is not, repeat not, an income tax. It never has been. Many uninformed people in the church IMPLY in their talks that tithing is an income tax but they are profoundly misinformed. Subsistence funds are non titheable and never have been. Tithing is a 10% sacrifice of your new wealth (hence the Lord's use of the term "interest") and is NOT an income tax. There's never a discussion in the church about what it titheable and what is not titheable. Any discussion of method of calculation is avoided, and as a result, most of the church sits in ignorance, and poor people falsely assume that they have to tithe their food money and money they used to replace/repair things they already HAD. The church stays vague. In years past, the scriptural term "interest" was used in church publications, but now, the more vague and scripturally meaningless term of "income" is all that's used. SO HOW DO YOU CALCULATE TITHING (the people who go from their "gross" and the people who go from their "net" are BOTH wrong because again, tithing is not an income tax and has never been an income tax. I know many people who have an INCOME, but who have no "interest" to tithe because they have no new wealth whatsoever (all their money goes to food, rent, utilities, the DMV etc). Wealthy people in the church love to get on their arrogant high horse and tell poor people to "have more faith." Well that's easy when YOUR tithing doesn't come from your food/clothing/shelter budget.

Article is here!

[Vort]

I think the Salt Lake Tribulation is a rag and that its comment sections are the stinking bowels of hell.

[Latter Days Guy]

Another quote from the same person.

Many of my fellow members make false assumptions about tithing. You know what I'm talking about, we have the people who preach to tithe your "gross" and quietly you have the majority with more intelligence, who tithe their "net." The problem though is both groups are wrong because tithing is not an income tax and never has been. It's actually a 10% sacrifice of your new wealth (hence the reason the Lord used the word "interest"). Translation: subsistence funds are non titheable. The wealthy don't have to tithe their food/clothing/shelter budget because they're so wealthy, and guess what folks, the poor are not required to tithe their food/clothing/shelter budget EITHER. Anyone who actually believes that poor people should treat tithing as an income tax and tithe their food/clothing/shelter funds, is massively misinformed. The problem is church leadership avoids the issue entirely. They've even gotten more vague over the years. Current church publications have the vague and pointless word "income" all over the place, which leads many to falsely assume that tithing is an income tax. Of COURSE you use your income to determine your interest. Duh, What else would you use. The part that is never explained, is that it's possible to have income, but not titheable interest. I know many people who fit this. Sadly, ignorance reigns supreme, and most cars at the temple are rich people cars. Poor people, who need the strength the most, aren't there for the most part. I've noticed a disturbing behavior among the poor: they'll pay tithing (using the false income tax method) for six months so they can go to a relative's temple wedding, then they'll stop (because "income taxing it" as I call it, is UNSUSTAINABLE FOR THE POOR-yet closed minded people love to tell the poor to "just have more faith" which is why we're the bankruptcy and foreclosure capital of the nation).

[Latter Days Guy]

I think the Salt Lake Tribulation is a rag and that its comment sections are the stinking bowels of hell.

I wouldn't know about that as I don't live in the US, what are your thoughts on what has been said?

[Dravin]

SO HOW DO YOU CALCULATE TITHING (the people who go from their "gross" and the people who go from their "net" are BOTH wrong because again, tithing is not an income tax and has never been an income tax.

While I can understand the thought process in my view the person is wrong if they are claiming the one true method of calculating tithing. Though to be fair those who want to stand up and declare that gross or net are the one true methods are wrong too. I personally don't think the lack of official direction and clarification on the matter is an oversight.

[Vort]

I wouldn't know about that as I don't live in the US, what are your thoughts on what has been said?

I think it's the ramblings (or perhaps rantings) of some random guy who doesn't like how things are and wishes to remake reality in the image he holds dear. Such people as him are best ignored.

[Latter Days Guy]

So what is the correct way of calculating your tithe?

[Wingnut]

So what is the correct way of calculating your tithe?

However you can make with the Lord about it.

[Vort]

So what is the correct way of calculating your tithe?

Very simple. Tithing is a tenth of your annual increase.

The guy you quote is an idiot. Please ignore him. His opinion is worth nothing, and perhaps less than that.

In fact, you should probably ignore most of what the Trib writes and all of the comment their site generates.

[Latter Days Guy]

In what way is he an idiot? Why is his opinion worth nothing?

[mnn727]

Very simple. Tithing is a tenth of your annual increase.

define "annual increase" -- show your proofs.

The guy you quote is an idiot. Please ignore him. His opinion is worth nothing, and perhaps less than that.

In fact, you should probably ignore most of what the Trib writes and all of the comment their site generates.

If it works for him and he believes its an honest tithe - then it is, and neither you nor anyone else is authorized to tell him he is wrong.

Take a breath Vort, you seem to be a bit uptight lately -- anything we can do to assist?

Edited June 26, 2012 by mnn727

[Vort]

define "annual increase" -- show your proofs.

No.

If it works for him and he believes its an honest tithe - then it is, and neither you nor anyone else is authorized to tell him he is wrong.

You apparently fail to realize that it is not me or anyone else telling him he's wrong in how he tithes; rather, it's him telling everyone else that THEY (i.e. WE) are wrong because they (we) don't view tithing as he does.

[Vort]

On a side note:

You seem to be very terse lately, anything we can do to help?

No, but thanks for your concern. In this case, terseness does not mean upsettedness. It just means I'd rather not use a hundred words when ten will do the job.

[beefche]

The Church refuses to define income or increase. Thus, no one else can define it for anyone else. I can define it for myself, but I certainly can't say that my definition means the same as yours, or Vort's, or some guy's on the Trib's comments.

This guy seems to think he has been given a gift to define it for every one in the church--and is very, very condescending and disdainful of anyone who defines it differently than he does.

[Guest]

Hmm... so if I use my income to go shoe shopping and a t-bone steak it's not an increase... whatever floats your boat dude.

I mean, sure, if that's how he justifies an increase, that's his business. What is irksome is he thinks everybody should follow his way of thinking. Silly, silly man.

[Guest]

So what is the correct way of calculating your tithe?

GB... here's the principle on tithes: It's 10% of your increase.

How do you define increase? That's for you to determine for your own particular circumstance. The advice is for you to take the matter up to God in prayer. The general concensus for those getting a paycheck is to use that paycheck as your first step in defining the word "increase" as it applies to you. Gross/net, gifts, tips, etc. etc. are for you to determine if it is an increase.

The only thing you are required to do is to answer the Bishop honestly and with a clear conscience when he asks the question, "Are you a full tithe payer?" in the temple recommend interview. No, the bishop will not ask you to show him your paystubs or whatever to prove it. So no, you don't have to hire an accountant to give the bishop an audit. Yes or No, that's all he needs.

[Vort]

In what way is he an idiot? Why is his opinion worth nothing?

*sigh*

Okay, here we go.

Tithing is not, repeat not, an income tax. It never has been.

As is so often the case in such situations, the guy starts out speaking true words. Tithing is not only not an income tax, it's not a tax at all of any kind.

Subsistence funds are non titheable and never have been.

Proof #1 that this guy is an idiot. This is (to be charitable) an ignorant statement, yet it seems to be the guy's thesis statement.

I assume you can see how utterly false and ridiculous this statement is. If not, please consider the teachings of the prophets about the payment of tithing, the numerous examples given by them, and for that matter, the scriptural examples of the widow's mite and the widow with her cruise of oil.

Tithing is a 10% sacrifice of your new wealth (hence the Lord's use of the term "interest") and is NOT an income tax.

Proof #2. The prophets themselves have been careful not to specify anything remotely resembling this. Who, exactly, died and left this joker as the prophet to interpret scripture and Church practice for us?

There's never a discussion in the church about what it titheable and what is not tithable.

Proof #3. Apparently, it never crosses his tiny mind that MAYBE THIS IS BY DESIGN.

SO HOW DO YOU CALCULATE TITHING (the people who go from their "gross" and the people who go from their "net" are BOTH wrong because again, tithing is not an income tax and has never been an income tax.

Proof #4. A laughable non sequitur.

Wealthy people in the church love to get on their arrogant high horse

Proof #5. Who, exactly, is on his high horse here? Hmmmm.

Many of my fellow members make false assumptions about tithing. You know what I'm talking about, we have the people who preach to tithe your "gross" and quietly you have the majority with more intelligence, who tithe their "net."

Proof #6. As if the "more intelligent" people actually tried to minimize their Church contributions. I suppose the widow who cast in her last mite, and whom Christ himself extolled for her act, was a complete imbecile.

It's actually a 10% sacrifice of your new wealth (hence the reason the Lord used the word "interest"). Translation: subsistence funds are non tithable.

Proof #7. Brother Moron thinks he's the prophet.

The wealthy don't have to tithe their food/clothing/shelter budget because they're so wealthy, and guess what folks, the poor are not required to tithe their food/clothing/shelter budget EITHER.

Proof #8. What on earth does this even mean?

The problem is church leadership avoids the issue entirely.

Proof #9. Seriously, do I need to go any further?

[Vort]

Take a breath Vort, you seem to be a bit uptight lately -- anything we can do to assist?

How many times do you plan to remodify your post?

I already answered you: I am not upset, and you need do nothing to assist.

[applepansy]

The link did not take me to the article.

Thank you Vort for your line by line. I agree with your thoughts on the article.

Good Grief!! I most certainly will NOT get my understanding of doctrine from a SL Trib writer.

[Dravin]

The link did not take me to the article.

Thank you Vort for your line by line. I agree with your thoughts on the article.

Good Grief!! I most certainly will NOT get my understanding of doctrine from a SL Trib writer.

It's not even a SL Trib writer, it's just some guy in the comments section.

[mordorbund]

President Kimball's statement on how a person should tithe:

Inquiries are received at the office of the First Presidency from time to time from officers and members of the Church asking for information as to what is considered a proper tithe.

We have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay “one-tenth of all their interest annually” which is understood to mean income (see D&C 119:4).

President Hinckley's reaffirmation:

In a revelation given on 8 July 1838, He indicated that His saints “shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.” (D&C 119:4.)

The Brethren have interpreted the word interest to mean income. Beyond that they have not given interpretation.

I may pay tithing on net; I may pay tithing on gross; I may pay tithing only on what I don't spend on essentials; I may pay tithing on the inheritance I leave when I die (until then, I'm still using it to subsist on); I may pay tithing any number of ways, but the bottom line is it's nobody's business except mine, the Lord's, and the Bishop's (acting as the Lord's steward). The Lord I know, the Bishop I know, but random Internet poster - who are you?!

[NightSG]

Hmm... so if I use my income to go shoe shopping and a t-bone steak it's not an increase... whatever floats your boat dude.

This; if you want to define subsistence as being outside of tithed income, then you first have to define subsistence in a meaningful way. Is it the minimum you could subsist on, or is it everything you want that happens to fall in the food/clothing/shelter category? After all, some people have monthly mortgage payments larger than my annual rent. I could eat (well) for a week on what some people spend for a single meal. If I decide to eat steak every night, do I get to deduct the full food bill, or just what it would have cost me to graze off the McD's dollar menu, or even just the price of a week's worth of ramen noodles?

Frankly, even if someone wanted to do this, the time spent figuring up the deductions would be enough to get another part-time job.

[Vort]

This; if you want to define subsistence as being outside of tithed income, then you first have to define subsistence in a meaningful way. Is it the minimum you could subsist on, or is it everything you want that happens to fall in the food/clothing/shelter category? After all, some people have monthly mortgage payments larger than my annual rent. I could eat (well) for a week on what some people spend for a single meal. If I decide to eat steak every night, do I get to deduct the full food bill, or just what it would have cost me to graze off the McD's dollar menu, or even just the price of a week's worth of ramen noodles?

Frankly, even if someone wanted to do this, the time spent figuring up the deductions would be enough to get another part-time job.

Agreed. In fact, the very phrase the guy uses -- "titheable income" (spelled two different ways in the same sentence :)) -- is clearly based on the phrase "taxable income". But tithing is not a tax of any sort. The entire comparison is ludicrous. Hence my affirmation that the guy's opinion is worth nothing, at best, and probably less than that.

[Anddenex]

I would definitely agree with the posts provided by Vort and Modorbund. I think tithing is a simple mathematical equation:

If person A makes $300, and tithing is 10%, how much does this person pay in tithing? $30. Tithing is so simple I can teach my 3 year old, and he even knows, if I make $10 dollars we pay $1 dollar to tithing. If I have 10 pennies we give one penny to the Lord.

Now, I truly have compassion for people who own their own business, they need to keep better records than I do to pay a full-tithe. Mine is really simple. I make "X" amount of dollars, every month, and I pay 10% of that "X" amount of dollars.

The story I remember of paying tithing is from a member back home who is now the Patriarch. He and his wife were inactive, and they started to come back to church. They knew tithing was a part of the law of the gospel, they also knew that if they paid tithing they would be in the hole every month. They ended up paying tithing and they to this day have no clue how they were able to survive except by the grace of God. He would always say, "We ran the numbers."

If I were, or they accepted, the idea presented by this guy, then they would not have had to pay tithing at all, because they needed all their income to sustain their living, and their was no interest afterwards.

[beefche]

I would definitely agree with the posts provided by Vort and Modorbund. I think tithing is a simple mathematical equation:

If person A makes $300, and tithing is 10%, how much does this person pay in tithing? $30. Tithing is so simple I can teach my 3 year old, and he even knows, if I make $10 dollars we pay $1 dollar to tithing. If I have 10 pennies we give one penny to the Lord.

Again, that is how you define tithing. The church has not defined income. Some define it as paying 10% on the net rather than the gross or some other method.